[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[rogerpepitone]

A problem with staying on the island: Without Kawabata running trips, where will the person get food / heating oil? It's unlikely that there was a 12-year supply on the island.

[Sute443]

Originally Posted by Isekaijin

Devil's Proof for my theory. Can't prove it's real, but there's no way this can be denied. I see it as the only way of Battler to die being everyone dead at that point in the game. Unless he was killed by his favourite "Trap X" he abused using against Beato.

Don't be so sure about everyone else being dead at that point. I think they left a pretty big loophole for one of the others to be alive. I'm not fond of it, but I think it exists.

Spoiler for loophole:

Kanon's body was never found. Sure. it was stated in red that Kanon was the 9th victim, but remember that Kanon isn't his real name. Its possible that after 8 people were killed Kanon formally cast off his title and thus "Kanon the servant" was the 9th "victim."

Considering that everyone at the meeting "acknowledged Ushiromiya Kinzo's existence" even though the original was dead, I don't think Kanon casting off his title is too much of a stretch.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Isekaijin

It could be referring to either of the two then. This other "Ushiromiya Battler" is, in my eyes, a big hint. Since they used the red truth to deny the fact that meta-Battler was born from Asumu, it can't be such a thing as Battler having split personality or something like that. They are two individuals called Ushiromiya Battler. And it's easy to imaginea Rudolf plotting to take the head of the familiy from Krauss. None of the three siblings liked Krauss to begin with. Eva tried to take the head using her son who was born before Jessica. Rosa is a wimp but if she could have the guts she would do the same.

Devil's Proof for my theory. Can't prove it's real, but there's no way this can be denied. I see it as the only way of Battler to die being everyone dead at that point in the game. Unless he was killed by his favourite "Trap X" he abused using against Beato.

Just as an another question, Who was the one who saved Ange from Kasumi in the world of 1998? The stakes materializing to serve the new witch was nice and all, but at this point I think nobody swallows that story. Amakusa was in the shore so he couldn't have helped her, and if he had followed her ignoring her orders, he probably wouldn't have waited until she was half dead from the beating. But what about if the culprit stayed on the island after all this time? If you think about it, Rokkenjima was a perfect place to hide, due to it's mystique. Nobody would go there, because everyone is afraid of the witch. It's enough to hide during a brief period of time to make the police stop searching and then you have an island with two mansions all to yourself. If someone see lights turned on they would believe it was the witch.

Maybe, just maybe "Beatrice" is living there now that nobody would bother her. Nor the annoying Kinzo, nor his obnoxious descendants. But if even a tiny bit of that Marriage Sorciere stuff was true and Ange was added through Maria, it would explain why this "Beatrice" would like to save her. If my theory of Battler having someone who shares his name and who is also Kinzo's grandson, then it would be even better. He would save Ange because she is his last living relative. The guns weren't found right? and we all know how easy was to them to pierce people's heads or intestines, or whatever.

About EP 4 Rosa is the BEST MOM EVER. The scene when she destroyed Sakutaro proved that.
But seriously... If only being chased by a pack of buttler goats make you admit that you're a bad mother, then you truly are a bad mom.

Spoiler for About Juuza:

Maybe he just had a hard time following her?

[rogerpepitone]

Spoiler for That loophole:

True or false: Vice President Dick Cheney died in January of 2008.

[Isekaijin]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

A problem with staying on the island: Without Kawabata running trips, where will the person get food / heating oil? It's unlikely that there was a 12-year supply on the island.

Let's suppose that person found the gold. It would have been easy to think that he somehow sneaked in one of the boats that came to the island to investigate, Police, press, even the Witch Hunt maniacs. With so much gold it would be easy to shut their mouths, go to land, buy a ship and food and return to the island hiding the boat in the hidden landing place the captain talked about. And don't forget. Rokkenjima had electricity. I never saw them with candles or something like that. And above all, Kinzo lives there. It's my guess that they have a private mini power plant or something like that which provides them with energy.

Originally Posted by Sute443

Don't be so sure about everyone else being dead at that point. I think they left a pretty big loophole for one of the others to be alive. I'm not fond of it, but I think it exists.

Spoiler for loophole:

Kanon's body was never found. Sure. it was stated in red that Kanon was the 9th victim, but remember that Kanon isn't his real name. Its possible that after 8 people were killed Kanon formally cast off his title and thus "Kanon the servant" was the 9th "victim."

Considering that everyone at the meeting "acknowledged Ushiromiya Kinzo's existence" even though the original was dead, I don't think Kanon casting off his title is too much of a stretch.

Battler already tried that. I will kill that reasoning with the red truth.

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!

I don't think that would change between games.

Even more, Beato did say:
The only one alive on this island is you.
If Kanon was alive then that would screw the red truth. He is alone, unless someone who counts as "himself" was there with him.

The idea came to me when I remembered an old anime from 1981 which had an episode with a similar plot. Lecherous guy and his friends locked in a strange mansion in an island. Everyone dying one after another according to the lyrics of a song, being the guy the last survivor. He went to face the last verse of the song and when he pointed his gun to the "culprit" he found himself. Boy, that really shocked me but gave me that idea.

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Spoiler for About Juuza:

Maybe he just had a hard time following her?

Can't deny that. But Ange or someone would have noticed. Amakusa wasn't familiar with the terrain.

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Spoiler for That loophole:

True or false: Vice President Dick Cheney died in January of 2008.

If what Wikipedia said was true, then false. Sorry but I don't know the guy

I won't accept that someone among the 17 was a murderer. Maybe Eva, but if EP 3 was indeed Trolling Extraordinaire, the Eva who killed Battler might also be a lie. Whether it's Beato making his family look innocent to him or something else, I can't believe one of them is actually the culprit. Rosa is a nasty piece of work, but very, very, veeery deep in her heart I know she loves Maria. .

[Sute443]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Spoiler for That loophole:

True or false: Vice President Dick Cheney died in January of 2008.

Spoiler for Reply:

False. The individual "Vice President Dick Cheney" became "Former Vice President Dick Cheney" in January of 2009. As such, is could be argued that "Vice President Dick Cheney" is no longer extant even though no death was involved. Actually, though, considering that in this case the individual's real name made up part of the title, it's not a very good comparison to Kanon's case.

My logic is twisted, but the battle is one of twisted logic. I don't like the theory I posted, but it doesn't technically violate the red.

Originally Posted by Isekaijin

Battler already tried that. I will kill that reasoning with the red truth.

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!

I don't think that would change between games.

Irrelevant. That was claiming that someone else could claim Kanon's title in response to Kanon appearing in the kitchen after being killed in Episode 2. Nothing about Kanon's ability to cast off his title was ever stated. In case there was a miscommunication, I was not saying he gave it to someone else, but rather that he "killed" the part of himself that was a servant.

Originally Posted by Isekaijin

Even more, Beato did say:
The only one alive on this island is you.
If Kanon was alive then that would screw the red truth. He is alone, unless someone who counts as "himself" was there with him.

Take note of the "on this island." It is possible that the killer found a way to temporarily leave the island and then returned to kill Battler.

[Isekaijin]

Originally Posted by Sute443

Spoiler for Reply:

False. The individual "Vice President Dick Cheney" became "Former Vice President Dick Cheney" in January of 2009. As such, is could be argued that "Vice President Dick Cheney" is no longer extant even though no death was involved. Actually, though, considering that in this case the individual's real name made up part of the title, it's not a very good comparison to Kanon's case.

My logic is twisted, but the battle is one of twisted logic. I don't like the theory I posted, but it doesn't technically violate the red.

Irrelevant. That was claiming that someone else could claim Kanon's title in response to Kanon appearing in the kitchen after being killed in Episode 2. Nothing about Kanon's ability to cast off his title was ever stated. In case there was a miscommunication, I was not saying he gave it to someone else, but rather that he "killed" the part of himself that was a servant.



Take note of the "on this island." It is possible that the killer found a way to temporarily leave the island and then returned to kill Battler.

Illustrative. Twisted logic at it's finest. I learned a lot today.

You forgot that Beato also said Nothing outside the island can interfere. If what you say is true and Kanon killed Battler for whatever reasons, the moment he stepped out of the island he became unable to interfere with Battler's death, and if he was indeed on the island it would count as two people being on the island. Of course the most important thing here is the time of death of Battler, supossing he was really killed. If Battler "the piece" left the board after stabbing Beato with blue, then Kanon shouldn't have had enough time to kill him. I mean, if he truly left the island.

And also the witch said In short, he was the 9th victim. If he truly killed his furniture complex, then why the word "victim"? Stating that he was the 9th victim only two things come to my mind.

1.- Everyone dead in the first twilight plus Jessica and George gave up their own names and "killed themselves as Ushiromiyas" Ridiculous, having seen the corpses.

2.- Everyone died. Also Kanon.

And the fact that Kanon threw away his own name is... another Devil's Proof, dammit.

Jessica, you'd better thank me, I'm racking my brains here to defend your furniture of a boyfriend.

[Sute443]

Originally Posted by Isekaijin

You forgot that Beato also said Nothing outside the island can interfere. If what you say is true and Kanon killed Battler for whatever reasons, the moment he stepped out of the island he became unable to interfere with Battler's death, and if he was indeed on the island it would count as two people being on the island. Of course the most important thing here is the time of death of Battler, supossing he was really killed. If Battler "the piece" left the board after stabbing Beato with blue, then Kanon shouldn't have had enough time to kill him. I mean, if he truly left the island.

You're right, I did forget that she said that. Well, um... Kanon was neither on the island nor outside it! There is a way he could be "off" the island in the sense that he didn't have a foot set on the ground, but still within the boundaries of the island! He was up a tree! ... What? It worked to hide baby Zeus from his father.

Wait, I don't remember, did we get confirmation in red that Battler died? If we didn't, then there's no need at all for Kanon to have killed Battler.

Originally Posted by Isekaijin

And also the witch said In short, he was the 9th victim. If he truly killed his furniture complex, then why the word "victim"?

Shannon recommended to Kanon that he create a second self that he could truly like while preserving his servant self for when he was working on the island. If he was able to differentiate the two of him well enough then it's conceivable that Beatrice could twist it into the "Furniture Kanon" being a victim.

[Jan-Poo]

He is alone, unless someone who counts as "himself" was there with him.

This is a preposterous logic. Just because there's someone with the same name and surname it doesn't count as himself. If that X Battler counted as Battler and facts could apply to both of them simultaneously then nothing could prevent Battler to say "I was born from Asumu Ushiromiya". It is clear those two Battlers are separate entities.

As you said

No one from outside the island can interfere
You are alone on this island
You are the only one alive on this island
I am not you
I will kill you

Mind the last sentence. Beatrice kills Battler, no one else but Beatrice.

[Ithekro]

....the dead kill Battler?

(....small bombs is wrong...it was a normal unexploded bomb from the Second World War...struck by lightning...next to Battler....)

....rrrrriiight.

[Isekaijin]

That's the same as accepting that witches exist! What you're saying is that Battler is completely alone in that island, If that were true in the whole sense of the word, nobody could have killed him! We could suppose that Beato did kill him, but isn't that the same as accepting all that crazy magical stuff that had been happening until now?

I'll add something Beato didn't say even for a while that she, the witch Beatrice was about to kill him. She was speaking as the representation of the true murderer of Rokkenjima. She only said "I" "I" is the Golden Witch Beatrice's true form, not the witch herself. But how would she kill him if he was all alone?

And then he went missing Since she assured him in red that she would kill him we can't doubt his status, when the seagulls cry on the morning of October the 6th Ushiromiya Battler is dead... what a coincidence, it's tomorrow...

My first blue. It felt really great.

[desirebluesky]

i wonder, was suicide ever denied?
he could've remembered his sin and kill himself because of it. or suddenly get paranoid about the killer still beeing there and kill himself out of fear. or just get depressed about beeing the only one alive and kill himself. or about his angsty past, if he had one. if it was Beatrice who made him do it it may still count as her killing her? a half assed explanation, but it's possible.

Originally Posted by Isekaijin

The fact that the "Ushiromiya Battler" Beato was fighting with was not the same "Ushiromiya Battler" she was expecting him to be.

it's not a "fact", she wanted to find a way out of the game as quickly as possible, and she clearly manipulated the truth to get that result, and possibly made some stuff up. you can't be sure which part of what she said is real. it would explain why it was such a shock/dissapointment/HowDoICallIt for her, but it could as well be the sole fact of him not remembering the sin. it's also possible that she really thought that, but she was wrong.

Originally Posted by Isekaijin

-The last showdown between Batter and Beatrice was a little one-sided. Yes he was enraged by ANGE's gruesome death. But some of his arguments were way too stupid. The "little bombs" in the food he used to explain the chapel murder in EP2 was too... unrealistic. And that doesn't explain the fact that the victims were filled with sweets. Unless is it something like "high tech sweets-teleporting miniaturized bomb that nobody can feel or taste until it's too late". Hell, even magic is easier to believe than that! And the fact that Beato didn't even try to answer that... just pisses me off.

it was supposed to be one-sided, Beato basically made him win. Battler said it himself, it wasn't really him winning, it was her giving up.
but i agree, it was annoying.

The idea came to me when I remembered an old anime from 1981 which had an episode with a similar plot. Lecherous guy and his friends locked in a strange mansion in an island. Everyone dying one after another according to the lyrics of a song, being the guy the last survivor. He went to face the last verse of the song and when he pointed his gun to the "culprit" he found himself. Boy, that really shocked me but gave me that idea.

what anime was that btw?

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

....the dead kill Battler?

(....small bombs is wrong...it was a normal unexploded bomb from the Second World War...struck by lightning...next to Battler....)

....rrrrriiight.

Ahh, good one. Beatrice's corpse fell out of a tree and killled Battler!

Seriously, that riddle is confusing and there must be a play in words involved.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Ahh, good one. Beatrice's corpse fell out of a tree and killled Battler!

Seriously, that riddle is confusing and there must be a play in words involved.

Well it has been mentioned that Beato used 'watashi' instead of 'warawa'. Warawa is normally referencing as a higher being, sometimes myth character, but Watashi is considered a neutral phrase used by adults (Eva was complaining in her flashback about Krauss using 'watashi' instead of 'ore' in EP 3 I remember)

[Ithekro]

I wouldn't be surprised if Maria used "ore"...half of Hocchan's characters use it.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I wouldn't be surprised if Maria used "ore"...half of Hocchan's characters use it.

I..honestly can't remember what she used XD Normally she referred to herself in the third person, but I think she used 'watashi' since it's a term normally used by girls as well.

[DentD]

Okay, I haven't finished Ep 4 yet, but I had a sudden thought that I really wanted to get some feedback on.

When Kasumi arrives at the airport on her way to Rokkenjima, she mentions the following:

"Propeller planes sure do shake...... I wouldn't want to ride one again."

I tried searching this thread but couldn't find anything regarding this. I know that this could just be a random remark, a red herring, or just a simple fact showing that Kasumi isn't used to such vehicles because of her lifestyle and status in society.

But I can't shake the feeling that it is significant.
My memory is poor, but does Kasumi actually refer to her sister by name? Or just "my sister"?

It just seems to me that there is a relation between Kasumi, Asumu (similar name?) and Battler, given their aversion to shaky vehicle rides.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by DentD

Okay, I haven't finished Ep 4 yet, but I had a sudden thought that I really wanted to get some feedback on.

When Kasumi arrives at the airport on her way to Rokkenjima, she mentions the following:

"Propeller planes sure do shake...... I wouldn't want to ride one again."

I tried searching this thread but couldn't find anything regarding this. I know that this could just be a random remark, a red herring, or just a simple fact showing that Kasumi isn't used to such vehicles because of her lifestyle and status in society.

But I can't shake the feeling that it is significant.
My memory is poor, but does Kasumi actually refer to her sister by name? Or just "my sister"?

It just seems to me that there is a relation between Kasumi, Asumu (similar name?) and Battler, given their aversion to shaky vehicle rides.

Kasumi refers to Kyrie normally as 'onee-san' or 'nee-san', although the former is more sarcastic since she hates Kyrie.

It could be a way to contrast between Kyrie and Kasumi though (since Kyrie doesn't seem to mind shakes or anything) or just a comment Kasumi made about the planes. It's not like everyone who mentions shakes is connected to Battler or Asumu.

If I remember right Rudolf said in the beginning of EP 4, when they were all at Nijima airport, that Asumu would complain about riding any type of vehicle that wasn't a car.

[sora1412]

I finish EP4 a month ago but haven't made any theories. Anyway, help me to counter my theory if it is ridiculous ty^^

Spoiler for erk theory for EP1 revisited:

1st twilight
Argument between the siblings went out of hand and a fight occured between them. Accidentally, Krauss was killed by Rudolf, Kyrie and Rosa. Both 3 siblings decided to hide the corpse only to be found out by Godha and Shannon. They killed them too however they missed out Natsuhi who was nearby too. Natsuhi, panicked and quickly went to fetch the Winchester and killed them(the siblings). Noticed what she had done, she quickly hide the bodies and make it seemed like a witch ritual murder( note that she belongs to a shinto family; knowing the occult by her may not seemed to be mystery)

2nd twilight
It is not the case that, after the construction of the closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder!
Sure, however what if the accounts of Genji, Kumasawa and Kanon were fake. So, in the 1st place it may not be a closed door ! Genji or Kanon or both of them lied their statement to make it look like a closed door. A door snapper were prepared nearby and was used to open the door and kill Eva and Hideyoshi. After the murder, he quickly drew the circle and went to pickup Kumasawa/the rest of the family to act as if the door was still locked when they came.

Kanon and Kinzo death
Kanon did not commit suicide
He pretended by hurting himself and for unknown reasons, Jessica and Nanjo lied about his death.

The last 3 deaths
A fight was started amongst the three and initially one were killed. The fight was later joined by Kanon and killed the rest of them

Natsuhi's death
Kanon who was alive, hide and waited for Natsuhi appear and murder her. He left his Winchester beside Natsuhi's body to make it look like she fired the weapon.

Rant:
I noticed myself that my theory heavily relies on "if Kanon is alive". However, that was the only thing I could have thought of about the final Natsuhi's death. Help me correct any mistakes in my theory if there is. I will write a proper theory for ep2 3 and 4 once I am confident about Ep1 theory. ty

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by desirebluesky

i wonder, was suicide ever denied?
he could've remembered his sin and kill himself because of it. or suddenly get paranoid about the killer still beeing there and kill himself out of fear. or just get depressed about beeing the only one alive and kill himself. or about his angsty past, if he had one. if it was Beatrice who made him do it it may still count as her killing her? a half assed explanation, but it's possible.

You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. However, I am here now, and I will kill you.

In other words, there is something on the island at that exact moment, which is separate from Battler and not a human, that is directly responsible for Battler's death. That seems to rule out pretty much everything except:

1) a previously-set trap, such as a bomb
2) a natural force, such as a landslide
3) a supernatural entity