(L) Zipang and politics

[el]

Originally Posted by Circle

If someone was to rip the subtitles from the HK DVDs and time them according to the torrent of the ep1-26 batch that's out there, would you guys be interested in them? Is it okay to post links to it on this forum?

Nup.

Anyway, there is a group actively subbing this project.

[dan88]

One "what if scenario" if the American war effort was disrupted by Mirai could be to allow Russia to capture all or part of Japan when it entered the war. In fact Russia still retains some Japanese Islands. The Russians did quite a good job of brutalising East Germany, particularly the female population, and presumably would have done the same in Japan. How would the Japanese nationalist feel about a half Russian/half Japanese population!

In addition there would be no South Korea.

Originally Posted by Ryusei

Even if you have 1000 fighters to surround a bomber, it's still very difficult to keep it completely safe in a three dimensional space from an enemy that's waiting for it, a well prepared intercept would probably still have a chance (for instance by diving on it from an higher altitude with the sun behind them) to get at least one attack in.

The easiest way to protect one bomber carrying a atom bomb would be to include it among a large formation of normal bombers. This hidden bomber would be very have to find and shoot down.

However conventional bombing raids were quite capable creating fire storms and were equally effective at destroying a city. I feel that the only advantage of using a Nuclear bomb was to demonstrate American power and allowed Japan a face saving excuse to surrender.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by dan88

One "what if scenario" if the American war effort was disrupted by Mirai could be to allow Russia to capture all or part of Japan when it entered the war. In fact Russia still retains some Japanese Islands. The Russians did quite a good job of brutalising East Germany, particularly the female population, and presumably would have done the same in Japan. How would the Japanese nationalist feel about a half Russian/half Japanese population!

In addition there would be no South Korea.

Without the US smashing the IJN, Russia couldn't make a serious attempt at invading Japan any more than Germany could have made a serious attempt at invading England without smashing the Royal Navy.

Besides, as nojay pointed out, how long would the Mirai remain operable? It might be possible to repair her mechanical systems, but the electronics? A ship only carries so many spare parts. That's assuming an american plane or ship doesn't get lucky and get a hit in. Any major damage to the radar and/or electronics suite, and the Mirai is next to useless.

The Mirai could have the biggest impact simply by giving the IJN a few assult rifles to study. If they were reverse engineered and put into production, they could give the Japanese infantryman a major advantage over the allies. Of course, given the relationship between the army and navy, I wouldn't be surprised if the army refused to use guns designed by the navy no matter how much better they were.

[KJlost]

Sherman would still have run over any Japanese infantry. Through the entire engagement history in the Pacific, I think there is ONE tank-to-tank victory credited to the Japanese, a single case where a Type97 engaged a Sherman at point blank and got a million-in-one shot that disabled the American tank. Infantry rifle can be considered actually a successful equipment story for the Imperial Army.

[IMSabbel]

Kamui:

I think the wear and tear would be the least problem.
Military installations usually are vastly overengineered, and i wouldnt expect any electronics to fail in a matter of a few years (we dont use vacuum tubes anymore, you know?)

The much bigger problem would simply be ammunition.
They have a very limited number of shots, and if they are out, they are more or less only good for their radar.

[Ryusei]

Originally Posted by dan88

One "what if scenario" if the American war effort was disrupted by Mirai could be to allow Russia to capture all or part of Japan when it entered the war. In fact Russia still retains some Japanese Islands. The Russians did quite a good job of brutalising East Germany, particularly the female population, and presumably would have done the same in Japan. How would the Japanese nationalist feel about a half Russian/half Japanese population!

I seriously doubt it. Russia had an immense firepower talking about ground forces and a decent aerial power, but it's navy was kind of laughable at that time. Actually Russia's operations against japan were extremely limited and close to nothing during the whole WW2, they had their hands full with Germany.
Moreover i'm not sure if the US would be able to bring enough firepower to europe if the war on the pacific began to go bitterly. Thus shifting the balance of power of the whole war. Without proper support by the US i doubt the D-Day and the advance in Italy would have ever happened, and without having to counter the offensive on the west and on the south germany probably would have been able to stalemate the russian advance much before Berlin (i seriously doubt Germany and Italy could punch enough power to win, but they probably could avoid loosing), possibly ending in an attrition war. From there many scenarios open, from negotation (Hitler always shown a lot of interest in negotiating a separate peace with England, the Battle of Britain pretty much ended not just because of the english pilots fierce resistance, but even because Hitler wasn't THAT much interested in actually conquering Britain, Dunquerque wouldn't have happened is Hitler himself didn't stop the german tanks advance for three whole days despite what his generals said, and the only real axplanation for it is that he didn't want to humiliate the british so much that they would have refused to negotiate a separate peace. They didn't anyway, proving that Hitler didn't take in account the stubborn nature of the English man and soldier, and of Churchill in particular, but what if Britain didn't receive enough support by the US later in the war? Maybe that would have augmented their will to negotiate) to war continuing in 1946 and further...
Even just having the US move the 8th air force from england to the pacific, to strenghten their air power counterbalancing a weaker naval power could have had an immense weight on the balance of history. Schwenfurt nor Ploesti would ever have happened, just to mention two, and the power of german industry wouldn't have been weakened as much as it has been.
The Military History of World War 2 by Sir Basil Harry Liddel Hart is a good reading about this, it has a very clear explanation of the turning points (even if the best part of the read are the actual causes of WW2, they're quite funny in a grim way too), and helps a lot if one wants to begin with the "if this wouldn't have happened then...."

Actually there are some kind of nightmarish scenarios, expecially if germany was allowed to go on with their V weapons research... atomic bombs dropped in east europe... stuff like that. Technlologically speaking russia was completely outclassed, and i'm not exactly fond of the idea of Hitler being allowed to go on in this and other kind of research...
I kinda think the Mirai crew would think the same too.

Actually there is even an anime on this matter, the first of the three episodes of "the cockpit" by leiji matsumoto, in wich a german pilot faces his moral doubts while escorting a captured B-17 transporting the first german atomic bomb.
I won't tell you how it goes because those three OAV are truly a BEAUTIFUL sight, if you can find them (they're licensed in the US and i think in france) get them, because they're worth it. Poetry at it's purest state.

Originally Posted by KJlost

Sherman would still have run over any Japanese infantry.

Probably, but they would have to get the shermans on the ground before having them overrun any kind of infantry. Tanks sink fast and sink well, and Shermans makes no difference in this :P
The true strenght of the Mirai doesn't rely on it's brute force, by engaging in guerrilla-like hit-n-run naval warfare i think it could have given a lot of problems to the logistics of the US navy. And a fleet without good and SECURE supply routes is kind of a sitting duck.
Moreover the Mirai is packed with technological knowledge, if even a small part of it was leaked to the japanese, who knows what would have happened? Sure, the mirai is just one ship, but what if it's technology (or even the most elementary parts of it) were applied to the rest of the navy? Giving the IJN a technological edge wouldn't definately have a nice effect on the US-Navy... The same giving the Army some good weapons.... and stable jet engines for the japanese fighters and bombers? What would happen to the american tanks with Nakajima Kikka blazing all over them and dropping bombs? And to the feared B-29 while in the gunsight of a decent number of Ki-201 Karyu, maybe led by an half decent radar? The knowledge packed on the mirai would allow the japanese aviation to step right up to the next generation... in 1942!
What would happen if there was even a small technical book on the technology behind atomic weapons in the Mirai's library? What would have happened if Japan would have the atomic bomb BEFORE the us? Maybe even just dropping it on an uninhabited atoll (bora bora half a century earlier? :P) and telling the US: "we know what you have, we have it too. You saw it. If you use it we'll do the same"

Wear of equipment and exhaustion of ammunition would be a bigger problem, but that doesn't happen overnight. Question is: would it happen before the Mirai and the knowledge packed inside it could change the balance of the war allowing Germany and Italy to survive long enough on the other side? And even if the mirai was lost in any way, wouldn't the knowledge inside it shift the weight of the war anyway?

And just a little question back on the tracks of the actual anime. Leutnant Tsuda proved to be much more "human" than kusaka so far, what will he do?

God, i've dipped so deeply in the "what ifs" (that we'll never see, because the mirai will NEVER side completely with the IJN) that i feel the urge to go see the three episodes of Rescue wings that i just downloaded. Back into reality!

[dan88]

Originally Posted by Ryusei

I seriously doubt it. Russia had an immense firepower talking about ground forces and a decent aerial power, but it's navy was kind of laughable at that time. Actually Russia's operations against japan were extremely limited and close to nothing during the whole WW2, they had their hands full with Germany.

The Russians quickly took advantage of the dropping of the atom bomb to invade Japan.

Sakhalin Island (Karafuto in Japanese)
http://www.karafuto.com/timetab.html#WWII
On August 8 1945, denouncing the pact of neutrality between two countries, valid until spring 1946, Russia entered the war against Japan. The Red Army crossed the 50th parallel, frontier between 2 countries in Sakhalin, and went down to the south. On August 15, Japan accepted the declaration of Potsdam to end the war. Feared that the cease-fire line becomes the definitive frontier (they advanced only 100 km in Sakhalin and even worse no Russian in Kuril islands), they continued to bombard Japanese towns and military positions, and even prepared to invade Hokkaido. http://www.karafuto.com/wwii.gif

There is every reason to think what happened in Germany would have happened in Japan and would have changed the face of the Japanese!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...%2Fwbeev24.xml
Stalin and his commanders condoned or even justified rape....

....How many German women were raped? One can only guess, but a high proportion of at least 15 million women who either lived in the Soviet Union zone or were expelled from the eastern provinces. The scale of rape is suggested by the fact that about two million women had illegal abortions every year between 1945 and 1948.

This is one lesson from history that the Japanese would probably want to remember before the Japan Nationalists start rewriting history!

[Ryusei]

They did, but they did so taking the chance because the utter confusion in japan and the almost complete destruction of the nihon kaigun that let shakalin undefended. In a situation where the Mirai intervention played a major role in safekeeping (or improving) the Imperial fleet's battleworthyness any russian invasion attempt would be demolished in the blink of an eye. Anyway they would have their hands plenty full with Germany, if japan would gain the upper hand in the pacific the US wouldn't be able to give proper support to England, thus probably preventing the demise of the german production and supply lines, no D-day and all. I seriously doubt Russia would be even able to push further than the polish border in those condions.

The issue of russian war crimes (and allied war crimes in general) is very much under debate, mostly because every time someone brings it up, the opposing part brings up the holocaust (as it was some sort of excuse that made the other side's crimes less atrocious). This mixed with the communist propaganda (that had it's effect in china as well, where the japanese war crimes were exaggerated post-war by the communist regime to fuel the anti-japanese resentment and to glorify the almost inexistant communist reistance during the war) basically made the whole point a succession of evidence and counter-evidence that still survives to this day. It's a very sensitive topic to many, and unfortunately it's difficult to discuss them without entering the flame's realm.

[Ryusei]

Episode 17 was really interesting

Spoiler:

some major plot is unfolding, and the fire under the ashes between the navy and the army is brought to light. I'm really curious to see who will kusaka go to meet in Tokyo (it might be the emperor, or general Tojo) and if it's general Tojo i'm really interested in seeing how he'll be depicted. If he'll be depicted positively that could cause some major unrest, since he's been hang as a class A war criminal, and the enshrinement of his kami (and some others) in the Yasukuni Jinja in Tokyo stirred heavily the internationals relations between japan and china (and korea). Expecially after august 2005, when the japanese prime minister officially visited Yasukuni Jinja, there's a lot of hostility on this matter, expecially from china. So i really wonder how it will be ^_^

[RedRum_097]

JMSDF

IMPROVED KONGOU CLASS DDG

HULL: #182 MIRTHIL CREW: 307 (27 OFFICERS)
BUILDERS: MITSUBISHI, NAGASAKI
DIMENSIONS: FEET: 504.1 X 68.9 X 20.3
DISPLACEMENT: 7,700 TONS STANDARD
RANGE: 4,500 NM @20KTS
MAIN MACHIRERY: CGGAG; 4 GM LM 2500 GAS TURBINES: 102, 160 HP (76.21MW) SUSTAINED; 2 SHAFTS; CP PROPS
SPEED: 30+ KNTS
COMBAT DATA SYSTEM: AEGIS NTDS WITH LINK 11, SATCOM WSC-3/OE-82C, OQR-1 HELICOPTAR DATA LINK
RADARS:
AIR: SPY-1D; 3-D;F-BAND, SPS-49
SURFACE: JRC OPS-28D; G-BAND
NAVAGATION: JRC OPS-20;I-BAND
FIRE CONTROL: 3 SPG-62; 1MK2/21; I/J BAND
SONAR: SQQ-89(V) BOW SONAR, OKI OQR 2 (SQR-19A(V)) TACTASS; TOWED ARRAY; PASSIVE; VERY LOW FREQUENCY
COUNTERMEASURES: 4 MK36 SRBOC, 6-BARRELLED MK36 CHAFF LAUNCHERS; TYPE 4 TOWED TORPEDO DECOY
ECM/ESM: NOLQ-2
MISSILES: MK41 VLS; 32 CELLS FORWARD, 64 CELL AFT
SM-2MR: COMMAND/INTERTAL GUIDENCE; SEMI-ACTIVE RADAR HOMING TO 90NM AT MACH 2
ASROC: INERTIAL GUIDENCE TO 1- 5.4 NM; PAYLOAD ONE MK46 MOD 5 NEARTIP TOPEDPOE
SEA SPARROW RIM-7M: SEMI-ACTIVE RADAR TO 8 NM AT 2.5 MACH; 39KG WARHEAD
HARPOON RGM-84D MCCDONNELL DOUGLAS HARPOON: ACTIVE RADAR TO 70 NM AT .9 MACH; WARHEAD 227KG
TOMAHAWK: TERCON AIDED GUIDENCE TO 700 NM (TLAM- C&D) OR 1000 NM (TLAM-C BLOCK III) AT .7 MACH; WARHEAD 454 KG (TLAM-C) OR 347 KG SHAPED CHARGE ( TLAM- C BLOCKS II & III) OR SUBMUNIITIEY (TLAM-D). TLAM-C HAS GPS BACK UP TO TERRCOM & A CEP OF 10 NM
TORPEDOES: HONEYWELL MK 46 MOD 5 NEARTIP; ANTI-SUB; ACTIVE/ PASSIVE HOMING TO 5.9 NM AT 40KTS; WARHEAD 44KG
CIWS: 2 GE/GD 20 MM/76 MK15 VULCAN PHALANX, 6 BARRELS PER MOUNTING; 3000 RDS/ MIN COMBINED TO 1.5 KM
MAIN GUN 5IN: 1 OTO MELARA 5” (127 MM)/ 54 COMPATTO; 45 RDS/MIN TO 23K ( 12.43 NM) WEIGHT OF SHELS 32KG


This is all if info on the Mirthil and what she can do. If you have any question e-mail me or Ill just wait for the next post.

OS3 Herrera
USN (USS Lake Champlain CG-57)

[questmark]

I've watched this show through ep 10 and it is absolutely fantastic. I'm downloading more episodes, but I found that when I download ep 14, it in fact actually downloads ep 2v2-- it says it's ep 14, but if you check the file, it's not. Does anyone know more about this? I'd hate to actually have to skip an ep., as the plot is so tightly constructed.

I had considered contacting the people doing the subs, but their website wouldn't respond. Just looking for some info on this-- thought you guys might know how I can get ahold of the proper ep 14.

Thanks.

--OK, odd. I got it to work. I've never had that happen before.... guess I must have somehow changed the file I was saving it as...... :P

[Karnot]

Well, if not for some retard, who probably raped more women alone, than the whole russian army in WW2, this topic has been quite enjoyable.

[Onizuka-GTO]

ARRGGH! Episode 20 was fantastic!

Dammn the sneaky IJN command!

Spoiler for Don't click if you haven't see it!:

That was some smart, kidnapping the XO on that sub, and deliberately surfacing during the air attack, to force the Mirai to come back and fight the Americans.

But now how they gonna replenish thier supplies? it's certain they will surivive, buta ship without munition is just an armoured ferry.

I suppose the XO is kinda stupid, wandering onto a IJN Enemy sub unarmed, he so naiive, but understandable.

I hate cliffhangers.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO

ARRGGH! Episode 20 was fantastic!

Dammn the sneaky IJN command!

Spoiler for Don't click if you haven't see it!:

That was some smart, kidnapping the XO on that sub, and deliberately surfacing during the air attack, to force the Mirai to come back and fight the Americans.

But now how they gonna replenish thier supplies? it's certain they will surivive, buta ship without munition is just an armoured ferry.

I suppose the XO is kinda stupid, wandering onto a IJN Enemy sub unarmed, he so naiive, but understandable.

I hate cliffhangers.

I agree, it was a great epsiode. I hope it isn't too long of a wait until the next.

Spoiler:

I can't wait to see how the Mirai is going to handle the air attack. Sure they can shoot down the Hornet's entire airwing, but that will cost them irreplaceable missiles. Truely a lose - lose situation...

Also, this epsiode got me curious about the history of the I-21. A quick search turned up this. Quite interesting.

[Kensuke]

Heh, I agree, about episode being fantastic and cliffhangers.

Spoiler:

I doubt that XO trusts the IJN ever again, but I'm really interested how they will clear this situation, even if they shoot down the planes. XO is still in sub, and now he knows that there are rivaling factions in IJN, I don't believe that the subs commander just releases them after the attack.

And about the coming battle...

Spoiler:

In the preview it looks like they were using Mirai's guns (or phalanx system?) not missiles, so there is still plenty of firepower, even if they shoot the planes down. And no doubt guns are more effective against relatively slow flying planes than missiles would be, me thinks.

[Onizuka-GTO]

dammn that is interesting Kamui!

mmm...maybe....the sub got damaged in that air attack and they have to surface? thus the XO can jump out and swim away!

As for the air attack , i think they must have some flak types air-bust cannon shells....to add to their air defence or something, can't just count on the phalax, although phalax have insane range and fire, they can even shoot down incoming missiles, so i think a few slow moving unsophisicated WWII planes will definately get shot before releasing their payload, but i not sure if they are torpedos or just bombs...if they are torpedos then thats tricky, no need to get so close, well by modern standard it would be considered close enough.

[Kensuke]

One thing I notice while I was browsing wikipedia:
Picture in USS Wasp article (the american aicraft carrier in ep. 20) and this screenshot from episode 20 look very similar.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO

As for the air attack , i think they must have some flak types air-bust cannon shells....to add to their air defence or something, can't just count on the phalax, although phalax have insane range and fire, they can even shoot down incoming missiles,

Phalanx doesn't have "insane range", or there would be no need for systems like Goalkeeper or SeaRAM. It's incredibly lethal within its range, of course, especially to WWII-era aircraft.

For long-range gunnery engagements I'd expect the Mirai to use their 5" gun - on most modern ships the main battery can double as an AA weapon, using proximity or time-fused shells.

so i think a few slow moving unsophisicated WWII planes will definately get shot before releasing their payload, but i not sure if they are torpedos or just bombs...if they are torpedos then thats tricky, no need to get so close, well by modern standard it would be considered close enough.

Actually, I'd reverse that assessment. USN Dauntless dive bombers ought to be harder targets, since they generally commenced their dives from 15-20,000 ft. which should put them out of effective range of the Phalanx for a good portion of their attack dives. Once the dive is commenced, even a successful hit would run some risk of flaming aircraft wreckage impacting the ship.

The Devastator torpedo bombers of the period, on the other hand, were very slow and came in straight and level at low altitude (which should pose no problems for a layered defence system designed to deal with sea-skimming antiship missiles). Worse, their torpedoes were unguided straight-runners, needing skilled pilots and a coordinated attack to hit a manoeuvring warship. VT-3, VT-6 and VT-8 were historically all decimated at Midway without scoring a single hit.

Neither type of aircraft should pose a serious threat to an Aegis-class, of course, but I would suspect you'd want to thin out the Dauntlesses at long range with the 5" or even SAMs, whereas the Devastators could probably be left to Phalanx to deal with.

[leongsh]

As one who has already seen the raws and completed the show last year, I can say that if you are looking for action, Episode 21 is not likely to disappoint

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by leongsh

As one who has already seen the raws and completed the show last year, I can say that if you are looking for action, Episode 21 is not likely to disappoint

cuuurse yoooou! I had resisted the the lure of the raws, but now...arrgghh....