US Politics Thread (2021-24)

[coded321]

^Honestly, rather than McConnell, I fear Joe Manchin will be the problem right now. With kamala as the tie breaker, its Manchin that democrats will need to bully into line to get things done.

[Guardian Enzo]

Don't sleep on Murkowski. She loathes Trump and Mitch, is generally centrist and has the luxury of an open ranked-choice primary in Alaska. She's gettable on many issues and could even decide to go independent and caucus with the Democrats.

[coded321]

^as with many things in politics, my cynic self will believe it once it actually happens.

[Magin]

Originally Posted by The Green One

So just for clarification, what do you define as "getting stuff done?" This isn't sarcasm, this is to understand your thought process in regards to this.

I'll try no to go too crazy, since I consider myself leaning left rather than a true full-blown progressive; this is because there are some issues that progressives push which I'm not 100% comfortable with myself.

But for starters: Go beyond the Paris Accords. They're a paper tiger "We'll say we're going to push for clean, renewable energy, but oh well if we don't". No Oh Well. Have incentives for it and punishments for those who don't. Climate change is a HUGE issue for me. See what we can do about making electrical energy more efficient... and I'd also like for more news on nuclear energy. I'm hearing that it's becoming clean as well, but there's a lot of downsides to nuclear energy as well (such as: radioactive decay and halflifes, so nuclear waste stays around... and then doing whatever is necessary to prevent Chernobyl and Fukushima from ever occurring again).

Next... PASS DAMNED M4A/ UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE!!! The US remains the only highly-developed country where this is not a thing. That's just effed up (though I have other feelings on it as well... short version: Americans themselves need to become healthier overall).

Next, take care of student loans. Another one of the stickiest points of contention. We live in the Information Age... the catch is, because higher education is so costly, you have too many people going online for Bad Information. I think Biden is already aiming to make Community College free; go further, and any college/University that's not private also make free... or at least, find a way to reduce the administrative bloat. It would be amazing if we could go back to the fabled times of "I worked a summer job and paid off college". Not sure how true this actually was though, to be totally fair.

Another major issue: infrastructure. You have all those guys complaining about "losing jobs from the coal mines being shut down"? Well, put them to work making renovations to currently existing roads and such structures.

Also on a related note... reinstate the Fairness Doctrine from the 80's (this will hurt the media networks pushing propaganda), and then get education back on track. There's a lot of ugly, ugly history in America that I've learned about post-secondary. America needs to be like Germany: confront these terrible, terrible things (such as: Bombing of Tulsa to destroy Black Wall Street), and then resolve to be better people.

Of course, the catch is that I'm just another guy on the Internet- hell, I'm not even living in America any more... but decisions made in America tend to affect the whole world, and I'll always be an American, for better or worse.

[SeijiSensei]

Just a reminder that the Fairness Doctrine applied only to broadcast stations because they are licensed by the Federal government. Cable services like FoxNews will never be subject to a Fairness Doctrine because they are protected by the First Amendment the same way magazines are.

America can't "be like Germany." The Constitution protects the display of Nazi paraphernalia just as much as it protects the display of the American flag.

Reinstating the Fairness Doctrine is a shibboleth on the left. Let's move on.

[Magin]

Correct me if I'm wrong... but I'm pretty sure displaying any Nazi items in public is considered hate speech, and Hate speech is actually NOT protected by the First Amendment. I forget which ruling it was, but I very specifically remember that there was a ruling about this

Though i will confess that I had only heard the Fairness Doctrine would solve the problem of stations like Fox News, but I'm not actually sure of the details. Rather unfortunately, I would argue that there's a ton of misinformation going around America due to propaganda by stations like Fox... and while America has arguably always had a propaganda problem, there should be a way to fix it somehow.

[Jaden]

There's no exception for hate speech, but there are narrow exceptions for threats and incitement to criminal activity, so particularly vicious hate speech is sometimes found illegal for those reasons.

I guess depending on the context, that could be applied to displaying Nazi flags.

This one's kinda close: https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/art...rginia-v-black

That's the USA. Finland is just a little stricter: it's also illegal to "promote discrimination against ethnic groups", so while Nazi symbols are not banned, you can easily commit a crime by displaying them...though the punishments tend to be light.

Canada, Western Europe, and obviously Germany have even less tolerance for such things.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Magin

while America has arguably always had a propaganda problem, there should be a way to fix it somehow.

The solution to "bad" speech is "more" speech.

For FoxNews, there have been attempts to boycott advertisers or pressure cable operators to drop it from their systems. I think the latter is bound to fail given the popularity of the channel. Boycotting advertisers might be a better approach, but it's rare when enough people engage in the boycott to really make a difference.

In the United States, hate speech is protected by the First Amendment. Courts extend this protection on the grounds that the First Amendment requires the government to strictly protect robust debate on matters of public concern even when such debate devolves into distasteful, offensive, or hateful speech that causes others to feel grief, anger, or fear. (The Supreme Court's decision in Snyder v. Phelps provides an example of this legal reasoning.) Under current First Amendment jurisprudence, hate speech can only be criminalized when it directly incites imminent criminal activity or consists of specific threats of violence targeted against a person or group.

http://www.ala.org/advocacy/intfreedom/hate

Snyder v Phelps (8-1 vote): https://www.uscourts.gov/educational...nyder-v-phelps

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

The solution to "bad" speech is "more" speech.

IMO those foxnews segments with hannity, tucker, etc. should have at the start a label that says "this segment shows the opinion of the commentator, this is not part of a news broadcast". Sad but seems to me many 'murricans think that if it is shown in a news channel, it must be journalism.

[Sheba]

The Repubs have tough battle ahead:

Either makes Trump persona non-grata so he never run for the officer ever again, lose the base, alienate them, then eventually emerge a little better.

Or let him be and carry his toxic stench on the GOP brand forever.

[The Green One]

It'll all depend if the Republican's manage to get a spine transplant and actually move to ensure some consequences. It's not like you have an election to try to win anymore! If you don't force him to stop he's never going to quit doing crap like this. It'll only reinforce to him that he's above the law apparently. He commits his crimes openly for god's sake!

Republicans already seem to be bitching about the trial in increasing numbers so apparently it's business as usual. They just want to bury their heads in the sand and smooth things over. If they pretend it's not there then perhaps all the criticism will simply go away on it's own....... Disgusting cowards.........

[Ithekro]

If they stick with Trump, they cannot be truly considered the Grand Old Party anymore. For it is neither Grand nor Old. And one could debate on if it could be considered a Party, but rather a Cult.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by The Green One

It'll all depend if the Republican's manage to get a spine transplant and actually move to ensure some consequences.

You make it sound like they want some consequences, but don't dare to push for them. I'm not sure that's true. I know what they say about malice and stupidity, but in this case, I'm not sure how to pick between malice and cowardice.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

IMO those foxnews segments with hannity, tucker, etc. should have at the start a label that says "this segment shows the opinion of the commentator, this is not part of a news broadcast". Sad but seems to me many 'murricans think that if it is shown in a news channel, it must be journalism.

Stopping the opinion as news could help the media to regain some trust from the public but it isn't much likely to happen as they had pass to the ''media as entertainement'' model a long time ago.

[The Green One]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

You make it sound like they want some consequences, but don't dare to push for them. I'm not sure that's true. I know what they say about malice and stupidity, but in this case, I'm not sure how to pick between malice and cowardice.

Well if they want to set the precedence that hey don't like the results of something? Send in the mob of crazy loonies and put the members of government at risk.

And it's cowardice. DEFINITELY cowardice. Trump and his supporters make it quite open that anyone who dares speak out against him will face retaliation. He did it for four years and for four years the Republicans cowered before it. Their spines surgically removed. They know Trump committed the impeachable offense. It's not even in question as the ones deciding the fate of it are the VICTIMS OF THE ATTACK.

They'll go on and on about how horrible violence is and what happened didn't need to but when it comes time to actually do something about it all there is in result are just excuses, lies, and misdirections.

They have a literal open and shut case and the chance to actually prevent him from running for office again, something Trump will happily dangle the threat of to further control Republicans as it's obviously he'll do it eagerly, yet with the golden opportunity to put that angle of blackmail down forever they dither and make excuses. It's maddening!

[Sheba]

Yes, just a slap on the wrist

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by The Green One

Well if they want to set the precedence that hey don't like the results of something? Send in the mob of crazy loonies and put the members of government at risk.

And it's cowardice. DEFINITELY cowardice. Trump and his supporters make it quite open that anyone who dares speak out against him will face retaliation. He did it for four years and for four years the Republicans cowered before it. Their spines surgically removed. They know Trump committed the impeachable offense. It's not even in question as the ones deciding the fate of it are the VICTIMS OF THE ATTACK.

They'll go on and on about how horrible violence is and what happened didn't need to but when it comes time to actually do something about it all there is in result are just excuses, lies, and misdirections.

They have a literal open and shut case and the chance to actually prevent him from running for office again, something Trump will happily dangle the threat of to further control Republicans as it's obviously he'll do it eagerly, yet with the golden opportunity to put that angle of blackmail down forever they dither and make excuses. It's maddening!

To condemn Trump's attacks on democracy, you need both spine and principles. You say they lack spines (which I won't argue against), but my point is that they may well lack principles, too.

[Jaden]

Think about it this way: GOP is already the less popular side. Let's say they set the party line, make things clear, condemn and convict Trump. They are going to lose some support by doing that.

I don't know how much they would lose, but even 5% would ruin them electorally. What do spine or principles matter, if you can't get elected? That's why they hesitate. The only strategy to keep their party alive right now is to avoid the issue and hope for some miracle - or double down and commit to being the party of Trump.

[Guardian Enzo]

It's a short-term pain for long-term gain scenario, because Trump is a losing hand but if they don't convict him, he'll continue to dominate the party for as long as he's around. But they're terrified of defying him and pushing him to form a third party (which I think is all bluster to begin with) and losing a chunk of his hard-core voters. The better strategy is to take the hit and exorcise him now, but this is the GOP we're talking about - they'll back down and kowtow to him like always.

[Jaden]

Heheh... If Trump is a losing hand, what would be the alternative? The Romney GOP from 2014? I guess everyone knows that won't work.

I guess there are some that don't mind being losers, as long as their corporate patrons are happy. Trump at least offered an avenue of reform to the party. I don't see any viable alternative if the intention is to keep fighting.