One Piece - Chapter 534 [Manga]

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Luffy is not on Shichibukai level yet and that's all there is to it.

There is no such thing as "Shichibukai level" for the power amongst the individuals vary. Same goes for the other powers, Yonkou and MHQ.

People really need to stop looking down on Crocodile and Moria just because they've been defeated already. Are people also going to look down on Doflamingo, Mihawk, and Blackbeard, when they are eventually defeated? Come on guys. These are warlords we are talking about here, 7 individuals who together make up one of the 3 balancing world powers. They are a part of the top tier in the One Piece Universe,

This is true.

[cheese4u]

Well, flamer's aside I'd say everyone has a right to their opinion. But the fact is you don't take down two Shichibukai and not be on Shichibukai level. Sure, Luffy was beaten twice by Crocodile before he finished the job, but that was a very long time ago (at least in real time), and Luffy only had a hard time fighting Moria and Crocodile because they couldn't be touched, especially Crocodile. Once Luffy found out his weakness it wasn't long before he found a way to defeat him. The current Luffy has gear two, three, and has Haki. So if you're saying that the current Luffy isn't on shichibukai level then you're also saying that the current Luffy isn't strong enough to beat the past Crocodile (who actually was a shichibukai).

Just like in everything in One Piece, you have a certain hierarchy of strength. With every group of people, there are always at least a few that are way stronger than the rest, and a few that are way weaker than the rest. So just because Luffy can't beat all of the Shichibukai doesn't mean he isn't on their level.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Exactly Phenomenol. As marvelB put it, Oda had to come up with convenient plot devices for both Crocodile and Moria to be defeated. Under no special circumstances, Luffy would get wrecked by Crocodile and Moria.

I'm not sure what this means. The very fact that this is a fictional work means that no matter what, all the characters are under special circumstances. From Luffy winning a fight, to his opponent losing a fight, all is designed in a specific manner. The fact is, this is a fictional world purposely designed to have Luffy one day become Pirate King, which consequently means that every single fight is rigged so that Luffy will survive and either win or better himself through his lose.

Oda specifically designed Moria and Crocodile (and Enel) with specific weaknesses that would result in them losing to Luffy. Now, a complaint that said weakness has always been extreme arrogance and pridefulness is justifiable, but since the characters were created with that weakness already in place, the argument that if they had not acted like themselves they could have won the fight is a fallacious argument since it is based on unknown information. There is no data to back up such a claim, and the very fact that it requires the character to act outside of their actual definition means that they are not actually the same character any more, rather they are something new and consequently cannot be discussed concerning the known data (it would be like holding a conversation concerning "what if Luffy wasn't a knucklehead?", even if you can guess at how such a version of Luffy would act, that does not change or determine the validity of canon).

That being said, I acknowledge an act of contrivance involved in the Crocodile fight. Specifically, the second death of Luffy, when he was dried out by Crocodile, only to be saved by the ball of water he had originally shot at Crocodile. I completely acknowledge that this was an act of plot conveniences and ultimately bad writing. But, I do not acknowledge any such contrivances in the Enel, Lucci, or Moria fights. Luffy being immune to lightning was built into Enel's character; the were never any real gimmicks in the Lucci fight (and Lucci was, more or less, considered along the same level of strength as a Shichibukai member); and the act of placing shadows in Luffy had been setup as a logical progression (at least logical for the One Piece universe) concerning the use of shadows (if they can be placed in zombies, and forcibly extracted from zombies, then why couldn't they be placed in a living body? Added to that, it was confirmed, when Robin attacked Moria's shadow, and when Luffy was playing tag with Moria's shadow, that a shadow can be physically touched once separated from its host body, so the Forrest Pirates capturing a few extracted shadows and holding them is not that far fetched).

That being said, to bring up some conversations I had a year plus ago on this forum: There is no specific Shichibukai level. Rather, there is a spectrum in which there are stronger and weaker Shichibukai. Crocodile, Moria, probably Hancock, and maybe DoFlamingo (depending on how he fights), are probably on the weaker side of the spectrum, considering that they are all detrimentally arrogant and extremely prideful. Whereas Shichibukai like Kuma, Blackbeard and Mihawk, while arrogant, do not let their pride rule their judgement. Consequently, it is very easy to place them at the stronger end of the Shichibukai spectrum. (Jinbei is an unknown quantity, he is prideful, but not necessarily arrogant, and he seems to be ruled by a strict code of honor, so it is hard to say where he would fall.) And, clearly, not all will be on same upper echelon of the Top Tier concerning the various major individual powers in the world, because if they were, all of them would have titles similar to Mihawk's or Whitebeard's (i.e. 'Greatest...").

That being said, to say that Luffy is not comparable to the level of strength found in the Shichibukai organization is simply untrue. Within the confines of the story (not within the suppositions of fanboys) the WG has formally acknowledged that Luffy and his crew have the required strength to defeat individual members of the Shichibukai organization. They even dispatched Kuma to the Moria fight just in case Luffy's potential was in fact true, and Moria did fall. So, to claim that simply because a fight did not go as you (not the literal you, Blackbeard, but the all encompassing you) wanted it too, does not defeat the basic fact that Luffy, within the story, has defeated 2 members of the organization (as well as 2 other comparable individuals (Enel and Lucci)), and is consequently comparable in strength to individual members of the Shichibukai. To deny this is to deny the basic facts of the story itself.

[Wolcik]

Originally Posted by james0246

I'm not sure what this means. The very fact that this is a fictional work means that no matter what, all the characters are under special circumstances. From Luffy winning a fight, to his opponent losing a fight, all is designed in a specific manner. The fact is, this is a fictional world purposely designed to have Luffy one day become Pirate King, which consequently means that every single fight is rigged so that Luffy will survive and either win or better himself through his lose.

Oda specifically designed Moria and Crocodile (and Enel) with specific weaknesses that would result in them losing to Luffy. Now, a complaint that said weakness has always been extreme arrogance and pridefulness is justifiable, but since the characters were created with that weakness already in place, the argument that if they had not acted like themselves they could have won the fight is a fallacious argument since it is based on unknown information. There is no data to back up such a claim, and the very fact that it requires the character to act outside of their actual definition means that they are not actually the same character any more, rather they are something new and consequently cannot be discussed concerning the known data (it would be like holding a conversation concerning "what if Luffy wasn't a knucklehead?", even if you can guess at how such a version of Luffy would act, that does not change or determine the validity of canon).

That being said, I acknowledge an act of contrivance involved in the Crocodile fight. Specifically, the second death of Luffy, when he was dried out by Crocodile, only to be saved by the ball of water he had originally shot at Crocodile. I completely acknowledge that this was an act of plot conveniences and ultimately bad writing. But, I do not acknowledge any such contrivances in the Enel, Lucci, or Moria fights. Luffy being immune to lightning was built into Enel's character; the were never any real gimmicks in the Lucci fight (and Lucci was, more or less, considered along the same level of strength as a Shichibukai member); and the act of placing shadows in Luffy had been setup as a logical progression (at least logical for the One Piece universe) concerning the use of shadows (if they can be placed in zombies, and forcibly extracted from zombies, then why couldn't they be placed in a living body? Added to that, it was confirmed, when Robin attacked Moria's shadow, and when Luffy was playing tag with Moria's shadow, that a shadow can be physically touched once separated from its host body, so the Forrest Pirates capturing a few extracted shadows and holding them is not that far fetched).

That being said, to bring up some conversations I had a year plus ago on this forum: There is no specific Shichibukai level. Rather, there is a spectrum in which there are stronger and weaker Shichibukai. Crocodile, Moria, probably Hancock, and maybe DoFlamingo (depending on how he fights), are probably on the weaker side of the spectrum, considering that they are all detrimentally arrogant and extremely prideful. Whereas Shichibukai like Kuma, Blackbeard and Mihawk, while arrogant, do not let their pride rule their judgement. Consequently, it is very easy to place them at the stronger end of the Shichibukai spectrum. (Jinbei is an unknown quantity, he is prideful, but not necessarily arrogant, and he seems to be ruled by a strict code of honor, so it is hard to say where he would fall.) And, clearly, not all will be on same upper echelon of the Top Tier concerning the various major individual powers in the world, because if they were, all of them would have titles similar to Mihawk's or Whitebeard's (i.e. 'Greatest...").

That being said, to say that Luffy is not comparable to the level of strength found in the Shichibukai organization is simply untrue. Within the confines of the story (not within the suppositions of fanboys) the WG has formally acknowledged that Luffy and his crew have the required strength to defeat individual members of the Shichibukai organization. They even dispatched Kuma to the Moria fight just in case Luffy's potential was in fact true, and Moria did fall. So, to claim that simply because a fight did not go as you (not the literal you, Blackbeard, but the all encompassing you) wanted it too, does not defeat the basic fact that Luffy, within the story, has defeated 2 members of the organization (as well as 2 other comparable individuals (Enel and Lucci)), and is consequently comparable in strength to individual members of the Shichibukai. To deny this is to deny the basic facts of the story itself.

Thank you and you rock, sir

But does it have to be this long to be right? does one have to write so much to prove a point?
Because I don't think people can't arque with that since it suppose to be an conclusion of many thought of many people form year and a half ago.

Mihawk is a shichibukai and the strongest swordman alive, and being on his level is like being on the top level of One Piece - with that fact anyone could say that Luffy isn't on shichibukai level.
However Luffy has already beated 2 of shichibukai and one of them lost his position because of it. He also improved from that time, and the fact that Goverment is recognising as a threat have more than symbolic meaning.

I remember that at one point people started to think which Shichibukai should Zoro beat before beating Mihawk.

[marvelB]

Actually, I too wouldn't be entirely certain that Luffy isn't Shichibukai level at this point. I mean, if we're talking about strength and notoriety, then Luffy more than qualifies to be one of the seven. The only thing he's lacking in is experience. All of the current Shichibukai are veteran pirates who have been around the block for a good minute now, while Luffy hasn't even been in the GL for one year so far. So yeah, when it comes to experience, Luffy doesn't come close. That's pretty much what both Crocodile and Moria have been trying to drill into his head during their fights. Otherwise, him and just about any of the Supernovas are Shichibukai material......

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by james0246

Oda specifically designed Moria and Crocodile (and Enel) with specific weaknesses that would result in them losing to Luffy. Now, a complaint that said weakness has always been extreme arrogance and pridefulness is justifiable, but since the characters were created with that weakness already in place, the argument that if they had not acted like themselves they could have won the fight is a fallacious argument since it is based on unknown information. There is no data to back up such a claim, and the very fact that it requires the character to act outside of their actual definition means that they are not actually the same character any more, rather they are something new and consequently cannot be discussed concerning the known data (it would be like holding a conversation concerning "what if Luffy wasn't a knucklehead?", even if you can guess at how such a version of Luffy would act, that does not change or determine the validity of canon).

If that's how you feel, then why bother speculating about anything in the first place if we are going to limit ourselves to strictly canon information?

Originally Posted by james0246

But, I do not acknowledge any such contrivances in the Enel, Lucci, or Moria fights. Luffy being immune to lightning was built into Enel's character; the were never any real gimmicks in the Lucci fight (and Lucci was, more or less, considered along the same level of strength as a Shichibukai member); and the act of placing shadows in Luffy had been setup as a logical progression (at least logical for the One Piece universe) concerning the use of shadows (if they can be placed in zombies, and forcibly extracted from zombies, then why couldn't they be placed in a living body? Added to that, it was confirmed, when Robin attacked Moria's shadow, and when Luffy was playing tag with Moria's shadow, that a shadow can be physically touched once separated from its host body, so the Forrest Pirates capturing a few extracted shadows and holding them is not that far fetched).

Who ever said anything about Lucci being comparable to a shichibukai member? If you are referring to when Kuma stated "Who would have predicted that Rob Lucci would be defeated?", that doesn't really imply that he is as strong as them. It only tells us that Kuma acknowledged the strength of the World Government's greatest assassin and that it was a surprise that Luffy (a mere rookie in the eyes of the World Government) managed to defeat him. As for your comments on the tangibility of Moria's shadows, I don't see how this refutes what I've been saying. I've been saying that Moria's defeat was entirely circumstantial and that he had to lose, otherwise the strawhats whose shadows were taken would be dead by now.

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, to bring up some conversations I had a year plus ago on this forum: There is no specific Shichibukai level. Rather, there is a spectrum in which there are stronger and weaker Shichibukai. Crocodile, Moria, probably Hancock, and maybe DoFlamingo (depending on how he fights), are probably on the weaker side of the spectrum, considering that they are all detrimentally arrogant and extremely prideful. Whereas Shichibukai like Kuma, Blackbeard and Mihawk, while arrogant, do not let their pride rule their judgement. Consequently, it is very easy to place them at the stronger end of the Shichibukai spectrum. (Jinbei is an unknown quantity, he is prideful, but not necessarily arrogant, and he seems to be ruled by a strict code of honor, so it is hard to say where he would fall.) And, clearly, not all will be on same upper echelon of the Top Tier concerning the various major individual powers in the world, because if they were, all of them would have titles similar to Mihawk's or Whitebeard's (i.e. 'Greatest...").

I am fully aware of and understand this Shichibukai spectrum you speak of. Not everyone is going to be equally strong, because that is simply not possible nor believable. There are bound to be some variations of power amongst the shichibukai members. It seems to me that with this said information, you're basically saying that Luffy would be roughly equal to the lower tier of the shichibukai, something I have a problem with and I will address later.

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, to say that Luffy is not comparable to the level of strength found in the Shichibukai organization is simply untrue. Within the confines of the story (not within the suppositions of fanboys) the WG has formally acknowledged that Luffy and his crew have the required strength to defeat individual members of the Shichibukai organization. They even dispatched Kuma to the Moria fight just in case Luffy's potential was in fact true, and Moria did fall. So, to claim that simply because a fight did not go as you (not the literal you, Blackbeard, but the all encompassing you) wanted it too, does not defeat the basic fact that Luffy, within the story, has defeated 2 members of the organization (as well as 2 other comparable individuals (Enel and Lucci)), and is consequently comparable in strength to individual members of the Shichibukai. To deny this is to deny the basic facts of the story itself.

I haven't denied that Luffy has defeated 2 of the warlords, so I don't know why I am being accused of doing so.

Okay, here's why I personally feel that Luffy is not yet on the lower tier of the shichibukai. The shichibukai are one of the three balancing powers in the One Piece universe. With that being said, these 7 individuals (when united) have the power to rival that of the marines and the four emperors. Now James0246, you said that you felt perhaps four (Crocodile, Moria, Hancock, and Doflamingo) out of the seven warlords (not including Blackbeard) were in the lower tier. Furthermore, you said that since Luffy has defeated two of these four, in addition to Enel and Lucci who you believe are comparable to the ones defeated, Luffy would have to be on par with individual members of the shichibukai. If you've noticed, there is a big problem with this if we adhere to the power balance Oda has presented to us. Since you feel that Luffy is comparable to the aforementioned four out of the seven warlords, you are implying that these four warlords are relatively on the same level of strength as a mere supernova. I'm sure you remember what happened at the Sabaody Archipelago, when Kizaru easily disposed of four supernovas. He did so without the slightest effort. By this logic, Kizaru alone would be enough to wipe out those four warlords you mentioned with ease. Kizaru is only one of the three admirals apart from the rest of the marines force. This means that in order to balance the power of the marines, the remaining three warlords (Kuma, Jimbei, and Mihawk) would have to be exponentially stronger than the lower tier warlords, so as to compensate for the huge gap in strength concerning the lower tier warlords and the admirals. It is for this reason that I don't feel Luffy is on the lower level of the shichibukai just yet.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

If that's how you feel, then why bother speculating about anything in the first place if we are going to limit ourselves to strictly canon information?

Speculating/Discussing current or future events is entirely different from discussing past events and there already described outcome. Crocodile and Moria were defeated, and their defeat was described quite well. So, speculating on what would have happened if Crocodile had not acted like Crocodile (or if Moria had not acted like Moria), or if they had somehow acted differently, is, in my opinion, disingenuous to discussion of the past events.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Who ever said anything about Lucci being comparable to a Shichibukai member? If you are referring to when Kuma stated "Who would have predicted that Rob Lucci would be defeated?", that doesn't really imply that he is as strong as them. It only tells us that Kuma acknowledged the strength of the World Government's greatest assassin and that it was a surprise that Luffy (a mere rookie in the eyes of the World Government) managed to defeat him.

Well there were also the strong words of support from one of the Vice-Admirals, but I will concede the point. You are correct; Lucci has never been formally stated as being equal to an individual Shichibukai. I think an argument could be made to support such a claim, but, again, I concede the point.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

As for your comments on the tangibility of Moria's shadows, I don't see how this refutes what I've been saying. I've been saying that Moria's defeat was entirely circumstantial and that he had to lose, otherwise the strawhats whose shadows were taken would be dead by now.

Excuse me, I thought you were discussing the possible plot contrivance of Nightmare Luffy (which in turn was what I was trying to debunk). That being said, yes Moria was going to be defeated...so I guess I am unsure why you, or anyone, is even discussing why/how Moria was defeated then?

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

It seems to me that with this said information, you're basically saying that Luffy would be roughly equal to the lower tier of the shichibukai, something I have a problem with and I will address later.

Exactly. Luffy is in no way comparable to the likes of Blackbeard or Mihawk (yet), but saying that Luffy does not equal Mihawk is not the same as saying that Luffy does not equal a Shichibukai.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Okay, here's why I personally feel that Luffy is not yet on the lower tier of the shichibukai. The shichibukai are one of the three balancing powers in the One Piece universe. With that being said, these 7 individuals (when united) have the power to rival that of the marines and the four emperors. Now James0246, you said that you felt perhaps four (Crocodile, Moria, Hancock, and DoFlamingo) out of the seven warlords (not including Blackbeard) were in the lower tier.

Actually, I only speculated concerning Hancock and DoFlamingo. We still have not seen how they fight, so while they may be weak, I honestly have no idea. Rather I was making a point based on the current theme of arrogance and pride being the downfall of the 2 Shichibukai that have fallen. (Hancock and DoFlamingo are both extraordinarily arrogant and extremely prideful, but I hope they are strong (And, you know I am a fan of DoFlamingo, so doubly hope that he will be strong ). That being said, I do feel that Moria and Crocodile were on the lower tier, both because of their arrogance, as well as the fact that they were defeated (in Shounen, if you were defeated once (and before others in the same organization), then almost undoubtedly not only will you be amongst the weaker portion of said organization, but if you survive, then you can never adequately challenge your defeater again).

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Furthermore, you said that since Luffy has defeated two of these four, in addition to Enel and Lucci who you believe are comparable to the ones defeated, Luffy would have to be on par with individual members of the shichibukai. If you've noticed, there is a big problem with this if we adhere to the power balance Oda has presented to us. Since you feel that Luffy is comparable to the aforementioned four out of the seven warlords, you are implying that these four warlords are relatively on the same level of strength as a mere supernova.

You are grouping the individuals together far too much. There are stronger Shichibukai, stronger Yonkou (Whitebeard anyone?), and stronger Admirals (probably). Luffy is not just a supernova, he is the supernova that gained his bounty by defeating Shichibukai and destroying Enel Lobby. I am not sure what Kidd or Law (etc) did, but I doubt it was comparable to defeating Shichibukai and destroying one of the 3 major military bases in the world. Just as Mihawk is more than simply a Shichibukai, Luffy far exceeds the simple definition of a Supernova (an "Ace Rookie").

Added to that, Luffy has the ability to gain Shounen multipliers (power boosts based on his emotional state) that allow him to be as strong as his needs to be in whatever situation he ends up in

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

I'm sure you remember what happened at the Sabaody Archipelago, when Kizaru easily disposed of four supernovas. He did so without the slightest effort. By this logic, Kizaru alone would be enough to wipe out those four warlords you mentioned with ease. Kizaru, is only one of the three admirals, apart from the rest of the marines force. This means that in order to balance the power of the marines, the remaining three warlords (Kuma, Jimbei, and Mihawk) would have to be exponentially stronger than the lower tier warlords, so as to compensate for the huge gap in strength concerning the lower tier warlords and the admirals. It is for this reason that I don't feel Luffy is on the lower level of the Shichibukai just yet.

Actually, Kizaru could easily defeat Moria (light automatically defeats Shadow), and Sand would be instantly solidified by Kizaru. So, yes, Kizaru could easily defeat the already defeated Shichibukai (I already said my piece concerning Hancock and DoFlamingo). Added to that, I do think that Kuma, Blackbeard and Mihawk are significantly stronger than at least Moria and Crocodile.

That being said, I can't help but feel that you misconstruing Luffy being equal to a Shichibukai to Luffy being equal to all Shichibukai. Being equal to specific members of a group does not mean that you are equal to all the members or the strongest members. Saying that Luffy has strength comparable to a Shichibukai, simply means that his strength comparable to a specific member in the organization. If you would prefer, we can say that Luffy has strength equivalent to Shichibukai: Moria level of strength, which implies only that Luffy is comparable to a certain level within the organization (i.e. a specific rank within the organization). To put it another way, simply because Luffy could defeat Crocodile and Moria does not mean he could necessarily defeat any of the other Shichibukai.

[FoxxFireArt]

This topic of conversation seems to be going a tad overboard.

Luffy beat all those people. That fact that the writer put character flaws into the villians that led to their defeat, and the character flaws of Luffy led to his victory; is all rather obvious given the fact that the writer WROTE it so be so.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by FoxxFireArt

This topic of conversation seems to be going a tad overboard.

Is that a One Piece joke .

[FoxxFireArt]

Originally Posted by james0246

Is that a One Piece joke .

Partially, yes.

[Prancing Preys]

Yea.... this is complete overkill.

What it all comes down to is your interpretation of the events and the characters. james0246 is correct in stating that all of these events are designed (fixed) - including the development from past to present - in order for Luffy to defeat his opponents. Luffy may belong to the spectrum of strength required for a Shichibukai. We don't know.

If he can defeat Magellan in the current arc, it would be safe to say that he is capable of becoming a Shichibukai.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by james0246

I'm not sure what this means. The very fact that this is a fictional work means that no matter what, all the characters are under special circumstances. From Luffy winning a fight, to his opponent losing a fight, all is designed in a specific manner. The fact is, this is a fictional world purposely designed to have Luffy one day become Pirate King, which consequently means that every single fight is rigged so that Luffy will survive and either win or better himself through his lose.

Uh this is your main point so I will attack it here....
We already know that Luffy is suppose to win his fights but the fact we are saying is that they were NOT CONVINCING at all. That's the reason now why you still have these questions and statements lingering about. Luffy can become Pirate King all he wants but if there are still characters out there who can kick his #$% so be it.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

Uh this is your main point so I will attack it here....
We already know that Luffy is suppose to win his fights but the fact we are saying is that they were NOT CONVINCING at all. That's the reason now why you still have these questions and statements lingering about. Luffy can become Pirate King all he wants but if there are still characters out there who can kick his #$% so be it.

Fair enough. Besides the one instance I pointed out in the Crocodile fight, I disagree with your assertion (then again, I was fine with the Kakuzu debacle in Naruto ). The various villains actions were all established within the definition of their character (Crocodile left Luffy to die 3 times before he actually attempted to make sure that Luffy stayed dead; Moria goofed off too much, and only attempted to fight after he woke up after being knocked unconscious), so I have no problem with them acting 'stupid' as so long as they were already defined as 'stupid'.

That being said, the fight with Kizaru, Kuma, and Aokiji just goes to show what a character that does not act stupidly can accomplish (i.e. near instant victory).

[Prancing Preys]

Croc and Moria were knocked out during their fight with Luffy. That is all there is to it.

I'd have to say... Blackbeard and james0246 sure have pinpoint observations and unrivaled analytical skills. Both of your arguments are well supported by events from the manga. However, I sense a form stubbornness in the tone of your arguments and continuation of this may result in casualties.

What do you guys think will happen to Luffy's arms? His fist looks like an enlarged marshmallow that has been drenched in goo and roasted over fire. The more I look at the picture, the more I think that Magellan is a Logia type because Luffy's fist was covered in the venomous goop. Either that or Magellan covered himself with an unnoticeable layer of poison beforehand. Or maybe, sweat is pouring out of Luffy's hand.....? :0

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by james0246

Fair enough....

Good....!!!

Croc and Moria were knocked out during their fight with Luffy. That is all there is to it.

That doesn't mean it was convincing.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by james0246

Speculating/Discussing current or future events is entirely different from discussing past events and there already described outcome. Crocodile and Moria were defeated, and their defeat was described quite well. So, speculating on what would have happened if Crocodile had not acted like Crocodile (or if Moria had not acted like Moria), or if they had somehow acted differently, is, in my opinion, disingenuous to discussion of the past events.

You are entitled to your opinion, so there's not much I can say to this. I personally feel that just because an event has already occurred in the past, it doesn't mean that we can't speculate what would happen in an alternative scenario.

Originally Posted by james0246

Excuse me, I thought you were discussing the possible plot contrivance of Nightmare Luffy (which in turn was what I was trying to debunk). That being said, yes Moria was going to be defeated...so I guess I am unsure why you, or anyone, is even discussing why/how Moria was defeated then?

I'm saying that it was luck and convenient plot devices that allowed Luffy to triumph over Moria. The sun just had to rise when they were fighting, and so Luffy just had to win no matter what or else he would be a goner and the story would end. That just couldn't happen. Moreover, Moria performs his shadows asgard move which puts him in jeopardy of losing all of his shadows and having them returned to their original owners. All he had to do to win that duel was fight how he normally would with his doppleman (although he would have to put in effort this time considering his damaged state) and stall for time until Luffy and the other Strawhats whose shadows were taken would be disintegrated. Even if by some low probability Luffy did manage to defeat Moria, it wouldn't matter because Moria himself has to actually give the order to return his shadows to their original owners (Chapter 463 - Page 3), and of course he would never do that. This is why I say it was a big fluke how Luffy beat him. Everything was too convenient and opportune in order for Luffy to emerge victorious.

Originally Posted by james0246

You are grouping the individuals together far too much. There are stronger Shichibukai, stronger Yonkou (Whitebeard anyone?), and stronger Admirals (probably). Luffy is not just a supernova, he is the supernova that gained his bounty by defeating Shichibukai and destroying Enel Lobby. I am not sure what Kidd or Law (etc) did, but I doubt it was comparable to defeating Shichibukai and destroying one of the 3 major military bases in the world. Just as Mihawk is more than simply a Shichibukai, Luffy far exceeds the simple definition of a Supernova (an "Ace Rookie").

I've already acknowledged that there are strength tiers in the aforementioned factions you listed (although so far I believe Aokiji and Kizaru to be equal to each other). I'm not disagreeing with any of that. As for what you've said about Luffy being an "Ace Rookie", look at how he fared against the Pacifista he fought. He had to fight with his whole crew in order to beat it, and even then he (along with his whole crew) was completely exhausted by the end of the fight. He really didn't do any better than Urouge and Drake did against the Pacifista they fought. They fought by themselves and they at least managed to inflict some damage on it. Who's to say that they wouldn't be able to defeat the Pacifista if they fought together with their whole crew?

Originally Posted by james0246

Actually, Kizaru could easily defeat Moria (light automatically defeats Shadow), and Sand would be instantly solidified by Kizaru. So, yes, Kizaru could easily defeat the already defeated Shichibukai (I already said my piece concerning Hancock and DoFlamingo). Added to that, I do think that Kuma, Blackbeard and Mihawk are significantly stronger than at least Moria and Crocodile.

Again, this doesn't make sense from a power balance perspective. I certainly do think that Kizaru would be able to defeat Moria and Crocodile, but not nearly as easily as you make it out to be. Speaking of how the Shichibukai stack up against the admirals, in my opinion I feel that Blackbeard and Mihawk are the only two warlords that can fight on equal terms with the admirals and emperors. But that's a story for another time.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Again, this doesn't make sense from a power balance perspective. I certainly do think that Kizaru would be able to defeat Moria and Crocodile, but not nearly as easily as you make it out to be. Speaking of how the Shichibukai stack up against the admirals, in my opinion I feel that Blackbeard and Mihawk are the only two warlords that can fight on equal terms with the admirals and emperors. But that's a story for another time.

Lol, don't sleep on that Flamingo.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

I'm saying that it was luck and convenient plot devices that allowed Luffy to triumph over Moria. The sun just had to rise when they were fighting, and so Luffy just had to win no matter what or else he would be a goner and the story would end. That just couldn't happen. Moreover, Moria performs his shadows asgard move which puts him in jeopardy of losing all of his shadows and having them returned to their original owners. All he had to do to win that duel was fight how he normally would with his doppleman (although he would have to put in effort this time considering his damaged state) and stall for time until Luffy and the other Strawhats whose shadows were taken would be disintegrated. Even if by some low probability Luffy did manage to defeat Moria, it wouldn't matter because Moria himself has to actually give the order to return his shadows to their original owners (Chapter 463 - Page 3), and of course he would never do that. This is why I say it was a big fluke how Luffy beat him. Everything was too convenient and opportune in order for Luffy to emerge victorious.

I disagree. You are discounting Moria pride, which, along with his arrogance, is what resulted in Moria's downfall.

Moria yelled at Kuma for even hinting at the possibility that the Strawhats could defeat him, and, non-coincidentally, right after he makes his grand pronouncement of victory to Kuma, he joins the fight with Odz just to make sure to completely defeat the Strawhats (specifically, Kuma's words led directly to Moria joining the battle). Then, after being sufficiently hurt by Nightmare Luffy (as well as Gear 2+3 Luffy and the entire crew when they finally defeated Odz), Moria finds that all of his plans were ruined. Odz was almost completely destroyed (his back was seemingly irreversibly damaged, as were other sections of his skeletal structure), Hogback was in places unknown (possibly dead), and Kuma had witnessed his humiliating defeat. So, what does the prideful Moria do? He decides to reclaim his honor by using his greatest technique to try and completely destroy Luffy and his crew. Consequently, the sun rise becomes a symbolic deadline of Moria's possible future: If he cannot defeat Luffy by the sunrise, then there is no way he can challenge Kaidou or the New World or enact his dreams of becoming Pirate King, or reclaim his pride.

Again, Moria was deliberately designed to fail. His mixture of arrogance and pride was always going to overpower his common sense. Because, honestly, with his power he could have defeated them all within one chapter. But, because of his character disabilities, he ended up using his powers ineffectively, resulting in his lose. So, it is not plot contrivance, it is simply the plot . Now, if Moria had acted stupidly when he was not designed to act stupidly, then I would 100% agree that Moria's defeat was plot contrivance, but, in the end, Moria simply fell due to his own defects, defects that were already described several times during the arc (Crocodile fell for similar reasons).

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Again, this doesn't make sense from a power balance perspective. I certainly do think that Kizaru would be able to defeat Moria and Crocodile, but not nearly as easily as you make it out to be. Speaking of how the Shichibukai stack up against the admirals, in my opinion I feel that Blackbeard and Mihawk are the only two warlords that can fight on equal terms with the admirals and emperors. But that's a story for another time.

Why not? An individual members being stronger, even significantly stronger, does not necessarily mess up the overall balance, as so long as the other individuals are weaker. For instance, if each group has a total fighting index of 10 (this is an arbitrary number based on no actual specific system), then the individual members would all add up together to equal that total power rating. So, in such a scenario, there could be far weaker people and far stronger individuals, but all together they would combine to equal the total fighting power which would be balanced between the 3 groups.

For instance, let's look at a possibly set-up of the (original) Shichibukai: Moria = 0.5; Crocodile = 0.5; Hancock = 1.0; Jinbei = 1.0; DoFlamingo = 2.0; Kuma = 2.0; and Mihawk = 3.0. So, the total fighting index for the entire group would be 10, but there is an obvious difference in strength between the individual members. A possible set-up for the Admirals would be: Kizaru = 3.4; Akainu = 3.3; Aokiji = 3.3. And, a possible set-up for the Yonkou: Whitebeard = 6.0; Shanks = 2.0; Kaidou = 1.0; 4th = 1.0. So, no matter what, all the groups would equal each other, but the individual member would all be of different strengths.

That being said, if you replace Crocodile with Blackbeard (who I would say is a 2.5 on the little scale above), then you can see why Kuma thinks that Blackbeard has unsettled the balance of the 3 groups.

(Again, this rating system is fairly arbitrary based on my conceptions of the various individuals already seen and their potential fighting power as a combined group. This is not meant to be taken as a science in any respect. This is purely subjective.)

[Wolcik]

I always thought that if Moria were to fight Luffy seriously he'd lose eventually, caue Luffy defeated Rob Lucci - who I find the strongest phisically person (without mention the top). We are currently worring if Magellan is KO after one Jet bazooka... so I think that Jet fireworks would deafet Moria if he was fighting seriously - because both him and his doppelman would be in the range. Oda had to make a plot where Moria would not lose himself, but lose all his shadows - him being deafeted is just a cherry on the top.

I wonder how many power up before Luffy takes down a Yonkou.

[FoxxFireArt]

Originally Posted by Wolcik

I always thought that if Moria were to fight Luffy seriously he'd lose eventually, caue Luffy defeated Rob Lucci - who I find the strongest phisically person (without mention the top). We are currently worring if Magellan is KO after one Jet bazooka... so I think that Jet fireworks would deafet Moria if he was fighting seriously - because both him and his doppelman would be in the range. Oda had to make a plot where Moria would not lose himself, but lose all his shadows - him being deafeted is just a cherry on the top.

I wonder how many power up before Luffy takes down a Yonkou.

Go back to the chapter where Moria absorbed the 1000 shadows. It was Zoro who pointed out that they were winning that fight. Moria wasn't strong enough to control all those shadows at once. He was barely conscious. All Moria was trying to do was a stalling tactic. He was just trying to hold them until dawn came. (ch. 481 pg. 18-19, ch. 482 pg.3)

One of the downsides to the devil fruit Magellan has is rather similar to Enel and Crocodile. They are hard to hit. It had been so long since someone was able to strike them with any force their body wasn't used to it.
Magellan's issue is that his body is made of poison. I doubt that in all that time as a poison man no one has been crazy enough to strike him directly. It could be that he just isn't used to taking a hit. To go from never being hit to a Jet Bazooka is quite a change.
Let us also not forget that Luffy is starving after the previous level. Luffy isn't striking at full power right now. For that he needs to eat. He was on his way to the food when Malgellan appeared before him.
If Magellan does get up after that hit then it would be because Luffy wasn't at full strength.