Steins;Gate 0 - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Jaden

They can't know the truth, because there would be no way to simultaneously observe two worlds. D-mail or the other types of time travel can be thought of as a rearrangement of the world, OR an exchange of information between two worlds.

Your first argument doesn't make any sense with the world line structure: the fact there is only one world line means it is actually impossible to observe another world. Ergo, you are basing your argument on the premise "there must be several worlds" whereas the premise states there isn't any other. You are using a stance that require the actual proposition to be valid to begin with.

Regarding exchange of information, that's absolutely not possible, because SG proved a world shift deal with any retroactive change which cannot work with 2 world communicating the way you propose.
All Okarin did was to send a message to the PAST, confirmed with all the dmails that didn't trigger a world line shift. None of the Dmail that didn't affect the past didn't make Okarin jump to another world, since there would a RS reaction otherwise. By that, we can conclude that the dmail only contains the text information the FG lab members have sent.

If it is really based on different world interpretation, then Okarin sending that dmail would affect another world, but not his, and there is no reason for him to have a RS either.
Conversively, failed dmails are still found in the recipient phone which confirms they are sent to the same world.

The reading steiner is pretty much self explanatory regarding what's going on in SG in general: the world completely restructure itself which would obviously affect everyone's memory, but it didn't affect Okarin as an established fact. Saying they are just sent to a parallel world lead to another issue: why wasn't Okarin sent to another world when nothing was affected by the dmail? Why didn't the RS activate after the rainet dmail? According to you, we are in a model that propose "exchange of information between two different worlds", yet RS didn't activate whatsoever.

But the single world rearranging itself has the same problem. How can time travelers possess information from worlds that don't exist?

Time traveler only have information of their own world line. This is proved by the large difference between Beta Suzuha and Alpha Suzuha. The former know about WW3, while the latter knows about SERN Dystopia.

Okarin is the exception to the rule because he isn't affected by the memory reset inflicted by the world restructuration.

I can only give my 2 cents on how I think I would process things as a character in the story.

And the characters already know first hand how it worked, thanks to Okarin experience about it. Again, parallel worlds do not work in sg setup at all.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Disagree, it's fundamentally a supposition, something akin to the issue of whether a tree falling in a desolate forest makes a sound. Suzuha offers her theory on the matter. There is also a scene in which Kurisu proposes a different one when she advises Okabe on which world to pick. Kurisu prefers to think that she will continue existing either way.

They can't know the truth, because there would be no way to simultaneously observe two worlds. D-mail or the other types of time travel can be thought of as a rearrangement of the world, OR an exchange of information between two worlds.

Whether the author has an answer for this issue is interesting to us, but not to characters in the story.

You could consider whether one of the explanations would cause a paradox, but that's not really helpful because they both violate causality like hell.

As you said, with parallel worlds (not the usual case of infinite worlds in other fiction, but a number limited by the convergence phenomenon of this particular story), the problem is how a branching point can be caused by an event that occurs further down one of the branches.

But the single world rearranging itself has the same problem. How can time travelers possess information from worlds that don't exist?

We know the answer to be simply: magic! Okabe's mystic eyes contain the secret. But that can be used to justify any theory you like, so there's no point in seriously discussing the metaphysics of Steins Gate. Especially if there is already a definite answer in some official material. I can only give my 2 cents on how I think I would process things as a character in the story.

So.... Instead of taking the facts at face value, that the story and writer themselves state, which is never contradicted by anything else in the story, you instead say that your made up hypotheses, which are never ever stated anywhere, nor believed by anyone, in-universe, or out, is the only possible truth.

And on top of that, you make up bullshit about a person's personality based on zero evidence?

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Your first argument doesn't make any sense with the world line structure: the fact there is only one world line means it is actually impossible to observe another world. Ergo, you are basing your argument on the premise "there must be several worlds" whereas the premise states there isn't any other. You are using a stance that require the actual proposition to be valid to begin with.

'Tis true I was begging the question. What I wanted to say is that both seem equally possible.

Suzuha states that different world lines are not parallel worlds, only vaguely existing as "possibilities", but I can't fathom how she could know it to be true.

It's kind of a given that the time-traveling protagonist (like Okabe, Suzuha or SERN) would think this way, otherwise the only thing they could change by time travel is their own, subjective perception of the various worlds that already existed anyway. It would completely ruin the imperative of time travel.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Regarding exchange of information, that's absolutely not possible, because SG proved a world shift deal with any retroactive change which cannot work with 2 world communicating the way you propose.
All Okarin did was to send a message to the PAST, confirmed with all the dmails that didn't trigger a world line shift. None of the Dmail that didn't affect the past didn't make Okarin jump to another world, since there would a RS reaction otherwise. By that, we can conclude that the dmail only contains the text information the FG lab members have sent.

If it is really based on different world interpretation, then Okarin sending that dmail would affect another world, but not his, and there is no reason for him to have a RS either.
Conversively, failed dmails are still found in the recipient phone which confirms they are sent to the same world.

Well, how about this: Trivial D-mails don't do anything because of the convergence phenomenon. Important D-mails move Okabe to the world which deviated due to receiving the mail, because he has a mystery power.

Anyway, I don't see how it necessarily follows that the world he peaced out of ceases to exist.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The reading steiner is pretty much self explanatory regarding what's going on in SG in general: the world completely restructure itself which would obviously affect everyone's memory, but it didn't affect Okarin as an established fact. Saying they are just sent to a parallel world lead to another issue: why wasn't Okarin sent to another world when nothing was affected by the dmail? Why didn't the RS activate after the rainet dmail? According to you, we are in a model that propose "exchange of information between two different worlds", yet RS didn't activate whatsoever.

I agree it's self explanatory, from the narrative of the story, and the perspective of the time-traveling protagonist. The answer leaps out at you. All I'm saying is I would, in Okabe's position, be skeptical of the claim that the worlds I leave behind are erased from existence.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Time traveler only have information of their own world line. This is proved by the large difference between Beta Suzuha and Alpha Suzuha. The former know about WW3, while the latter knows about SERN Dystopia.

Okarin is the exception to the rule because he isn't affected by the memory reset inflicted by the world restructuration.

Sure, but for example... D-mails still come from a world that doesn't exist, right? Basically, branching points between world lines and between attractor fields can be ordained by things that don't exist even in the future. It seems like a paradox to me.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Well, how about this: Trivial D-mails don't do anything because of the convergence phenomenon. Important D-mails move Okabe to the world in which it was received and where changes occurred. It's RS that would be facilitating the exchange of information between worlds, and D-mails are only a trigger.

Anyway, I don't see how it necessarily follows that the world he peaced out of ceases to exist.

You are twisting the actual definition of the convergence phenomenon to the point it doesn't make any sense.
Convergence is simply the fact that certain actions or events will always occur in a given World Line (the so called attractor fields).
Mayuri dying in the beta world line is one of those attractor fields, so as long they stay in a given world line, such attractor fields will always happen unless a major change allow them to shift the world line completely.

Your suggestion is a poor attempt to make a conditionnal world jump, even though it goes against the entire concept of the reading steiner. The reading steiner only overwrite the new world line Okarin's memories with the one who has been trying to deal with world line changes.
With your explanation, this means that the Okarin we have followed thus far has been overwritten without him realizing, which in turn doesn't make sense with RS. Why? Because in the middle of his struggle, he had to cancel out previous dmails, yet after everything done for so long, he never was overwritten himself, even though you keep claiming other worlds still go on parallel to his. This is a fatal contradiction with not only the Okarin we follow, but it is also contradicting everyone else reading steiner, which only occured after a certain number of world line shift occured.

If your assumption is correct, then you brought to yourself major narrative issues:
1) Okarin should not be able to maintain all of his memories with the RS, because other Okarin who are in "parallel worlds" would overwrite him at some point if the events of their worlds occur in parallel to his
2) Other characters reading steiner wouldn't work the way it is now, because your implication is that they receive informations from other worlds. This begs the question about the timing and the "linear nature" of their respective flash back, be it Feiris, Luka or Kurisu.

The SG universe works as follows:
<<<<<<World Line 1>>>>> => <<<<<<World Line 2>>>>> => <<<<<<World Line 3>>>>>

But what you are suggesting:
=============================World Line 1=======================>>>>>
....................................||
....................................V

=============================World Line 2=======================>>>>>
.................................................. ................................||
.................................................. ................................V

=============================World Line 3=======================>>>>>

Red arrows representing a world line shift.

This couldn't possibly happen because every Okabin overwritten by the current Okarin would follow his path and meddle with dmails, which means world 1 would potentially overwrite again world 2 okarin then overwrite the Okarin in world 3.
The assumption that other world lines continue after the jump completely fail flat since the convergence would make other events happen to those world lines too, which would lead to a RS spagetthi.

What's worse is that your explaination goes completely chaotic the moment we introduce time leap: unless every okarin time leap at the same time for the same period, time will flow differently for them, meaning that the actual events of their respective world lines won't line up because the date won't be the same.
For example, Okarin had to time leap several time few hours in the past when he was looking for the IBN 5100 with Moeka. But what about the Okarin from the other worlds who don't follow Moeka but do something else, like the one who is dating Luka? This means that for the first one, he is still in July 29th, but the second one is in July 30tgh because he didn't time leap.
Now, please tell me how present Okarin after jumping on the moeka world line wasn't overwritten by the one in Luka's world line, even though Luka worldline was dealt before Moeka's? With your claim, it means that normally, the Okarin in Luka's timeline would finish his mission first because he didn't time leap as much as the Okarin in Moeka's timeline. Consequently, the "past okarin" would have overwrote the "present okarin" fixing the next Dmail. This never happened.

I agree it's self explanatory, from the narrative of the story, and the perspective of the time-traveling protagonist. The answer leaps out at you. All I'm saying is I would, in Okabe's position, be skeptical of the claim that the worlds I leave behind are erased from existence.

It is exactly because the facts are brought to his face that the parallel world thing isn't even remotely possible.
All I've stated in my arguments are facts Okarin learned first hand: the shift only occurs when the -past- changes, any other interactions with the past doesn't have any effect whatsoever. You are just musing over elements that have no logic to apply in the context given to the characters.

Sure, but for example... D-mails still come from a world that doesn't exist, right? Basically, branching points between world lines and between convergence fields can be ordained by things that don't exist even in the future. It seems like a paradox to me.

A paradox implies that something happened that "shouldn't happen", except it isn't like that in SG.
There -are- iterations of the world one after another. The fact a world ceases to exist doesn't mean any lasting effect "shouldn't happen", exactly because of the restructuration of the world -does not involve time rewind-.
This is the most important thing when it comes to world line shift: the world does NOT rewind itself, because time has already flew.

The illustration used by John Titor is spot on: the current present of a world shift to another line, but the cause of the shift had a lasting effect. In a layman term, the restrucation doesn't cancel what was already done.

Let's use that analogy: you bought a drink from a vending machine. Few seconds later, let's assume it got destroyed by a truck crashing on it. Then the day after that, another vending machine with different drinks take its place. The drink you have bought doesn't magically disappear.
This example looks completely out of context, but it is just simple as that: the world destroyed its current state and reconfigured itself. This doesn't mean the Dmail itself is deleted whatsoever. They came from the previous version of that world, simple at that.
The current world -cannot- create that dmail, but it is from the previous world that indeed existed for a certain period of time. The world changes aspects of itself to accomodate the existence of the Dmail. It doesn't prevent the dmail to exist.

[FlareKnight]

Okabe's life really is just constant suffering. Though I suppose you could say this is another necessary experience. An up front reminder of the costs of inaction. Trying to save Kurisu without the result being the alpha timeline is hard, brutal, and traumatic. But if he just sits around even the beta timeline will be hell.

And if the theory is right that his interactions with Amadeus allowed for the creation of a time machine...then he can't interact with it anymore. Can't use that as a crutch to push away the pain of losing Kurisu. If he can't stand losing her yet again then he'll have to push ahead and resume the efforts to save her and reach the best case scenario world line.

[Tong]

He needs to build the machine eventually so he can help his past self to reach Steins;Gate.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

...

I see...Those are some powerful arguments. If they were laid at Okabe, he couldn't delude himself from the truth. And to be fair, he has had a lot of time to think about this stuff. While his demeanor sometimes makes one forget, he's a scientifically minded dude.

Spaghetti: Would have to make more assumptions to wriggle out of it, like "There are many Okabes but ones with RS are limited" and "Events beyond his present world don't trigger RS"

Time leap: "When Okabe with RS time leaps, it's always to a parallel world that he hasn't visited in his own subjective past" "Time leap experiments will always connect to another world, D-Mails not always"

Aaand you get the idea. No matter how much I wanted to believe, at some point I'd have to give up and accept the elegant solution.

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Okabe's life really is just constant suffering. Though I suppose you could say this is another necessary experience. An up front reminder of the costs of inaction. Trying to save Kurisu without the result being the alpha timeline is hard, brutal, and traumatic. But if he just sits around even the beta timeline will be hell.

All these sufferings make the ending of the original S;G a lot more powerful tbh.

To reach a happy ending, Okabe has to sacrifice so much. But it's all worth it in the end.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I see...Those are some powerful arguments. If they were laid at Okabe, he couldn't delude himself from the truth. And to be fair, he has had a lot of time to think about this stuff. While his demeanor sometimes makes one forget, he's a scientifically minded dude.

Spaghetti: Would have to make more assumptions to wriggle out of it, like "There are many Okabes but ones with RS are limited" and "Events beyond his present world don't trigger RS"

Time leap: "When Okabe with RS time leaps, it's always to a parallel world that he hasn't visited in his own subjective past" "Time leap experiments will always connect to another world, D-Mails not always"

Aaand you get the idea. No matter how much I wanted to believe, at some point I'd have to give up and accept the elegant solution.

Okarin doesn't time leap into parallel worlds. He time leaps into the past. This does not create a new world. It just changes history. It is no different from sending a D-mail. Everything that happened after the point he leaps to will simply have unhappened, to be replaced by new events.

It's like I said. You are denying everything that the story establishes, and are replacing it with made up mechanics and conventions that were never mentioned in the context of this story.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Okarin doesn't time leap into parallel worlds. He time leaps into the past. This does not create a new world. It just changes history. It is no different from sending a D-mail. Everything that happened after the point he leaps to will simply have unhappened, to be replaced by new events.

It's like I said. You are denying everything that the story establishes, and are replacing it with made up mechanics and conventions that were never mentioned in the context of this story.

I'm not denying anything. I was of the opinion that Okabe might have doubts and buy into an alternate view for his own convenience, unless he was an unusually stubborn and egocentric person. Because that's what people do.

But after reading Klashikari's refutations, I changed that opinion. I think Okabe is likely well beyond having any such doubts at this point in the story.

[pervypig]

I thought da date and time didn't change? teh email kurisu got at the and of the show is dated 2010/08/17, but it was just new year in 2011 when Okabe landed!

Also, the differences in character from Kurisu to Amadeus here is very obvious! It seems like this kurisu is more tsun than amadeus...

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I'm not denying anything. I was of the opinion that Okabe might have doubts and buy into an alternate view for his own convenience, unless he was an unusually stubborn and egocentric person. Because that's what people do.

But after reading Klashikari's refutations, I changed that opinion. I think Okabe is likely well beyond having any such doubts at this point in the story.

I'm sorry, I must have missed some part of what you said then.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by pervypig

I thought da date and time didn't change? teh email kurisu got at the and of the show is dated 2010/08/17, but it was just new year in 2011 when Okabe landed!

Also, the differences in character from Kurisu to Amadeus here is very obvious! It seems like this kurisu is more tsun than amadeus...

That's because it is the date of RECEPTION, not date when the mail was sent.

As for Kurisu's behaviour, that's to be expected since the time they have spent together is quite longer compared to Amadeus Kurisu and Okarin.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by pervypig

I thought da date and time didn't change? teh email kurisu got at the and of the show is dated 2010/08/17, but it was just new year in 2011 when Okabe landed!

This is essentially the same scene as in episode 22 of the original anime, where Okabe is erasing the very first D-Mail of him writing about seeing the dead Kurisu at Radio Kaikan, that led to the world line shift, from a world where the attractor field converges to kill Mayuri to a world line where Kurisu is dead.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Refresh my memory again, was this "do not come in" D-Mail present in the original S;G? (as in, in the first S;G did Kurisu receive this D-Mail?)

[Klashikari]

No. They used that scene to connect both SG and SG0. There wasn't any implication she was delayed in the original VN either.

[Dengar]

In the VN they didn't show the D-mail.

[Jaden]

I kind of handwaved that point away before...it was always a little strange that the worldline shifted from Okabe's action of going through with the hack. Since that wasn't messing with time in any way.

It makes more sense now, since even that action had a D-Mail as its condition. Very clever. And it was a good refresher of what happened.

What bothers me is how they have no idea what switched Okabe to an Alpha worldline to begin with, yet Kurisu seems somewhat confident that sending this D-Mail will "fix" whatever it was. She must know something I don't.

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I kind of handwaved that point away before...it was always a little strange that the worldline shifted from Okabe's action of going through with the hack. Since that wasn't messing with time in any way.

It makes more sense now, since even that action had a D-Mail as its condition. Very clever. And it was a good refresher of what happened.

What bothers me is how they have no idea what switched Okabe to an Alpha worldline to begin with, yet Kurisu seems somewhat confident that sending this D-Mail will "fix" whatever it was. She must know something I don't.

Since the D-Mail was anime-original, I would wait for episode 9 to see what the explanation would be.

[Jaden]

I'm giving the anime people credit that they respect the general continuity, even when making retcons. Except when it comes to movies and stuff.