[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[AuraTwilight]

It's generally being assumed that what we read is being summarized in the actual message bottles, as if the message bottles were a cliff notes and Ryukishi is writing them out in full.

[Renall]

I'd say it's more that we don't know what the actual text said, but that we're assuming the exact text of the various episodes is not it. To what extent they differ and which parts are or are not in them, I don't know we've ever had much consensus.

[Jan-Poo]

There's that statement that claims the stories found in the messages were written like a diary from Maria's perspective.

The stories we have read are neither written like a diary nor written from Maria's perspective (at least not during the actual games).

Honestly I'm not even sure if Ryuukishi made up his mind about that.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Lets say the first two games where made from Maria's perspective. Battler is reading and since he was with her all that time he's trying to piece together what might have really happened. The problem is EP3, Maria dies early in the story. Battler couldn't have written it from Maria's perspective cause it would have ended too quickly.

Similar thing with EP4, Maria and Battler are cooped up inside the room all the time till the very end. He couldn't have made the story from her perspective cause it would be boring. I doubt he would have written her in to investigate the crime scenes , jotting down the details of them before or after her test.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's generally being assumed that what we read is being summarized in the actual message bottles, as if the message bottles were a cliff notes and Ryukishi is writing them out in full.

Originally Posted by Renall

I'd say it's more that we don't know what the actual text said, but that we're assuming the exact text of the various episodes is not it. To what extent they differ and which parts are or are not in them, I don't know we've ever had much consensus.

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Lets say the first two games where made from Maria's perspective. Battler is reading and since he was with her all that time he's trying to piece together what might have really happened. The problem is EP3, Maria dies early in the story. Battler couldn't have written it from Maria's perspective cause it would have ended too quickly.

Similar thing with EP4, Maria and Battler are cooped up inside the room all the time till the very end. He couldn't have made the story from her perspective cause it would be boring. I doubt he would have written her in to investigate the crime scenes , jotting down the details of them before or after her test.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There's that statement that claims the stories found in the messages were written like a diary from Maria's perspective.

The stories we have read are neither written like a diary nor written from Maria's perspective (at least not during the actual games).

Honestly I'm not even sure if Ryuukishi made up his mind about that.

So, it's okay to assume that not all of what we see is part of the actual text? Then would it be safe to exclude the Meta and magic scenes? We were supposed to assume that there is some clues in them but I hardly see any. Also, I thought the premise was that Maria wasn't the author, so whether the stories are told in her perspective or not shouldn't matter.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Of course the premise was that she wasnt the author. The thing is that if it was written in her perspective and what was written was somewhat faithful to what we saw then EP3s letter would have ended with a note like " I convince mother to go outside so I can try to find my flower. I hope this doesnt come back and bite me in the ass."

Anyways this is in regards to the first 2 games, for all we know Battler might have switched around the perspective for later games.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Of course the premise was that she wasnt the author. The thing is that if it was written in her perspective and what was written was somewhat faithful to what we saw then EP3s letter would have ended with a note like " I convince mother to go outside so I can try to find my flower. I hope this doesnt come back and bite me in the ass."

Anyways this is in regards to the first 2 games, for all we know Battler might have switched around the perspective for later games. Did Battler sign his Ushiromiya Maria as well? I dont remember.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Of course the premise was that she wasnt the author. The thing is that if it was written in her perspective and what was written was somewhat faithful to what we saw then EP3s letter would have ended with a note like " I convince mother to go outside so I can try to find my flower. I hope this doesnt come back and bite me in the ass."

Anyways this is in regards to the first 2 games, for all we know Battler might have switched around the perspective for later games. Did Battler sign his Ushiromiya Maria as well? I dont remember.

No, I don't think any of the games after were signed by Maria. But the strange thing is that perspectives started switching around in EP2, though I believe that was for the sake of the backstories.

Now that I think about it, all the later games seem to match the premise of the EP2.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

So, it's okay to assume that not all of what we see is part of the actual text? Then would it be safe to exclude the Meta and magic scenes? We were supposed to assume that there is some clues in them but I hardly see any. Also, I thought the premise was that Maria wasn't the author, so whether the stories are told in her perspective or not shouldn't matter.

We don't know what it's safe to exclude. I personally don't think the meta segments appear in the "original text," but I'm not sure if the magic scenes do or don't.

All I can tell you is that, say, Banquet of the Golden Witch is a different text from Umineko ep3. How it's different is what I couldn't tell you.

[AuraTwilight]

Wait a minute, does Ange's 1998 story mention how things are treated as if Beatrice is holding Battler and his family hostage "for all eternity?" Is that just a really dumb euphenism for "lol they're dead", or is it supposed to imply that some form of the meta-narrative is present?

[Jan-Poo]

Don't remind me that... I don't think there is a rational explanation for Meta Ange's attitude towards Meta Battler in EP4. I can understand that she wanted her family back despite knowing it was impossible, but how exactly she started thinking that Battler winning his game against Beatrice in the metaworld or in the fictions she read (supposing they include meta scenes) would have any effect on that?
It's bothersome because making Battler win seems to be her only concern in EP4. And naturally that concern that was her main drive in ep4 becomes completely moot after EP6 and it is as if Ange doesn't even remember she wished for that. Not even a single comment on the fact that her Onii-chan made it and won. I mean... she only became a hamburger for that... one would think she cared... at least a bit...

[AuraTwilight]

Well, I mean before that point in the narrative, when she's still in 1998, Bern specifically told her they were kept prisoner. Meta-Ange can be explained easily; she outright says she's not Ange, but a piece created to deliver her feeling of loneliness as a message. What that actually MEANS in the context of what the Witch-Hunters are reading/what Toya is thinking, who the hell knows.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Wait a minute, does Ange's 1998 story mention how things are treated as if Beatrice is holding Battler and his family hostage "for all eternity?" Is that just a really dumb euphenism for "lol they're dead", or is it supposed to imply that some form of the meta-narrative is present?

Beatrice is covering up the truth by miring the events of 1986 in fantasy and the unknown. Since the victims' fates cannot be known, they cannot escape Rokkenjima of 1986, and can only relive those fateful 2 days over and over; and in this sense they are "trapped" in Beatrice's magical realm (it also thematically explains her "Endless Resurrection" magic). Battler also stayed behind in 1986 as well, although his body lived on as Touya.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Don't remind me that... I don't think there is a rational explanation for Meta Ange's attitude towards Meta Battler in EP4. I can understand that she wanted her family back despite knowing it was impossible, but how exactly she started thinking that Battler winning his game against Beatrice in the metaworld or in the fictions she read (supposing they include meta scenes) would have any effect on that?
It's bothersome because making Battler win seems to be her only concern in EP4. And naturally that concern that was her main drive in ep4 becomes completely moot after EP6 and it is as if Ange doesn't even remember she wished for that. Not even a single comment on the fact that her Onii-chan made it and won. I mean... she only became a hamburger for that... one would think she cared... at least a bit...

I thought of meta-Ange in episode 4 to be, at least in part, a mental projection of Touya's. Combining this with the fact that Touya knows that Battler is alive (although subverted under Touya's personality) can explain ep4 meta-Ange's peculiar attitude that Battler in particular can be reclaimed by defeating the witch.

"Real" Ange's appearance in Touya's life is the trigger for meta-Ange's appearance in Touya's mind (the meta-world). Without Ange as motivation, Touya has no particular reason to even consider reviving "real" Battler (remember, right before meta-Ange showed up, meta-Battler had reached a happy complacency with the witches). However, the hamburger part is a metaphor for Ange's disappearance from the "real" world that Touya knew; meta-Battler (the Battler-within-Touya's mind) realized his opportunity to meet her was gone, which is when he realized the serious consequences of hesitation and finally made up his mind to kill Beatrice.

So yeah, the "battle" between meta-Battler and Beatrice really can be seen as Touya's decision process of whether he should return to being Battler or not. In this sense, defeating Beatrice is the same as Battler returning to the "real" world. However, as Chiru goes on, meta-Battler's goals themselves change, so this way of thinking only really applies to episodes 1-4. From the ep8 escape scene we learned the truth to be that Battler originally chose to lock himself in 1986 Rokkenjima willingly, because Battler did not want to abandon Beatrice to fade away to illusion all alone.

It's late. I hope I am making sense.

[AuraTwilight]

Beatrice is covering up the truth by miring the events of 1986 in fantasy and the unknown. Since the victims' fates cannot be known, they cannot escape Rokkenjima of 1986, and can only relive those fateful 2 days over and over; and in this sense they are "trapped" in Beatrice's magical realm (it also thematically explains her "Endless Resurrection" magic). Battler also stayed behind in 1986 as well, although his body lived on as Touya.

That's what I thought, but the very literal way this concept is treated in the 1998 narrative kind of hinted at the presence of Meta-Narrative. I'm aware that Ryukishi probably wanted to imply this as part of the twist.

[Wanderer]

Well, I tend to think that any scene with Bern in it is a meta scene. The rooftop scene is probably in Touya's head. Alternatively, you could also think that scene (with Bern it in, or without) is included in Touya's fiction of 1998 and that Ange's thoughts are actually just a projection of Touya's. But either way it's based off of Touya's worldview and not the real Ange's.

Episode 4's meta-Ange is Bern's piece because she was introduced to Touya by a seemingly random miracle (Touya did not write the forgeries with the goal of getting Ange to contact him in mind), and because her introduction served Bern's purpose in destroying Beatrice.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

That's what I thought, but the very literal way this concept is treated in the 1998 narrative kind of hinted at the presence of Meta-Narrative. I'm aware that Ryukishi probably wanted to imply this as part of the twist.

In one way yes, but in another it also hinted at the purpose, goal and origin of Bernkastel, especially in connection with the Witch's Tanabata TIP. When she is in contact with Ange she is mostly the voice of doubt, angst and terror in her mind, which is being fed to her by media, stories and further ideas. She was also the one who whispered to Ange that the only way to remain that spark of life for her family, she'd have to refuse Eva for all eternity. Basically it's just a childish way of saying "if you ever accept Eva as your mother, your original mother is basically dead".
And just the same the scene on the rooftop in 1998 is, for me, just Ange's doubts after she encountered the Witch Hunter's and their theories...especially fueled if Eva really did say all that stuff about cursed gold and passing on the witch's curse. There was basically a whole section of fiction's and conspiracy theories about "a witch keeping killig her family" and because they were all different they were basically "captured by that evil witch".

IF the meta world were real I'd still say that is all the influence it's got. It's inhabitants can whisper to people who are very weak in their belief or have very strong convinction...they basically can tell you just those things that you want to hear. Like the Eisernen Jungfrauen being able to use the parents as a mechanism to transfer their theories to the normal world because the parents were at a point where they were able to utter those theories. Overlays between meta and non-meta can occur as long as they overlay anyway.

And concerning Ange in EP4, I'd still say that meta-Gretel and 1998-Ange are two distinctly different characters. Though there are scenes that make it appear as if they were connected, neither of them ever recognizes the events that happen in each other's worlds except their shared background that preceded the moment on the roof. That was probably the point where through some event (maybe even the attempted jump from the building after Eva's death) caused for:
(A) Ange changing her way of life after reconsidering her past, maybe gathering some evidence and deciding to become Kotobuki Yukari in a similar change of heart as in EP8.
(B) Tôya stumbling over an article or anything similar which tipped his memory of Battler's sister Ange and his guilt over not being able to make Battler return to her out of fright.

I'm sure Tôya created Gretel in his mind and imagined what horrible fate might befall her if she never learns about the actuall truth. The whole game it is basically Meta-Battler (and therefore Tôya) slowly stumblig towards the realization who that mysterious girl who demands a solution to the case actually is. It is basically the spark of resolution that gives him closure about the question wether he is Battler or not, because his memory of Ange returning means that, even if in his memory there are doubts about his parentage, there is no doubt about his memory that he is Ange's big brother.

1998 Ange on the other hand does not even touch that subject. It is basically a possibility for Ushiromiya Ange that Tôya might have cooked up but that might as well just have happened to any real Ange in any universe where she did not decide to become Kotobuki Yukari before dying on Rokkenjima.
I've arrived at the position that it doesn't matter wether it is within the novel Alliance or not, because it could have happened and it is Ange's plot as well as the future's plot. The plot Battler-Ange is woven by the strand of Gretel-Meta.Battler.

[PsychoShion]

For people of fans of AND THEN THERE WERE NONE, the novel by Agatha Cristie, which UMINeko is based a bit on, same as the movie The thing a movie from 1982.

For all those who wondered what happened at the Norweigans camp we finally got our wish brand new PREQUEL!!!

http://www.thethingmovie.net/ Coming out in October! this is like actually

like if we got to finally see what happened that day in rokkenjima Prime in 1986!! The catbox has been opened for us The thing fans!!! Maybe R07 will be nice enough someday to make one like this!

[Wanderer]

I more or less agree, except...

Originally Posted by haguruma

I've arrived at the position that it doesn't matter wether it is within the novel Alliance or not, because it could have happened and it is Ange's plot as well as the future's plot. The plot Battler-Ange is woven by the strand of Gretel-Meta.Battler.

I agree that the emotional relevance of episode 4 Ange's 1998 story is pretty much the same no matter what it really is. However, its relationship to "reality" is very relevant to understanding Umineko's "real" world.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by PsychoShion

For people of fans of AND THEN THERE WERE NONE, the novel by Agatha Cristie, which UMINeko is based a bit on, same as the movie The thing a movie from 1982.

For all those who wondered what happened at the Norweigans camp we finally got our wish brand new PREQUEL!!!

http://www.thethingmovie.net/ Coming out in October! this is like actually

like if we got to finally see what happened that day in rokkenjima Prime in 1986!! The catbox has been opened for us The thing fans!!! Maybe R07 will be nice enough someday to make one like this!

I'm looking forward to this. The first The Thing movie was incredible.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

I have to admit I love the THING. I always like movies where paranoia and the state of the mind takes center STAGE...that and ALIENS.