AnimeSuki Forums

OH&S · 2014-03-16, 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by demino_hellsin

Is it just me or are all instances of Kamijou's precognition defensive in nature?

VS Rensa #28?
Surely that counts?

In general it is used in conjunction with IB which doesn't have any attack function (.........yet). Unless that changes, it will mostly be defensive.

demino_hellsin · 2014-03-16, 05:11

I mean his precognition has always been predicting his enemy's manner of attack so he can find a way to defend or counter, but it has never predicted an opponent's defense so he can plan an attack.

kazzuya13 · 2014-03-16, 10:48

I hope after the Gremlin arc. The Aleister Arc comes next. I think that Touma's imagine breaker is more than they understand. Cause I believe that it is more than a reset key.

Draco Spirit · 2014-03-16, 10:51

Which says a lot about Touma really, the guys got "defend" written in him to his core, every time he gets involved in something, it to protect another.

dniv · 2014-03-16, 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Why would I be talking about you?

EDIT:

This was referring to the endless loop scenes.

He would continue to speak in the same manner as he usually does and behave the same as he usually would even as an old man. That was what he's talking about.

I agree with that interpretation.

Let me make five short points:

1. Every time a character in this series had their illusions broken (either by Touma or by a tragedy in real life) they changed a lot whether they were villains or protagonists. Think of most of our favorite characters in this series; this is why many of us really love them.

2. This series is extremely fast-paced. Each volume is between 1 to 4 days long. People don't change that must so quickly even in real life. It takes a while for people to change, so the pacing is actually realistic. Anime usually exaggerate the time it takes for people's feelings to change (because it would take too long to show otherwise).

3. While protagonists/villains have some goal they can ignore the darkness behind or in front of them. One these goals disappear, characters have to come to terms with their past because they can't distract themselves anymore.

4. In the afterword, Kamachi said he thought it was finally time for Touma to break, just like other characters in the series had. And this is why I believe he's saying that we should expect to see Touma change afterwards: he has to adopt a new viewpoint on life because his old one doesn't work based on what he experienced.

This time I'm going to use the type of analysis that I learned from the To aru series to make my final/most important point: (

)

5. We know Kamachi, as an author, is able to plan at least four volumes ahead in this series; his editors have said as much. (with some small missteps like Mikoto)

At the end of NT 4, Kamachi said that he included Othinus in the series as a plot twist to help with the future development of the series.

Now, keeping that in mind, if we think about why Kamachi would have written this volume (with Othinus & Touma) in the first place, there should only be a few plausible reasons:

A. Kamachi could reveal some secret about the Imagine Breaker that we didn't know before (no that's too short-term and probably wouldn't need Othinus).
B. Kamachi could reveal a little bit more about Aleister Crowley. (no not big enough to merit it being a plot twist helping the future development of the series)
C. Kamachi could make one of his main characters finally crack, and change his viewpoint, and also could completely change the dynamic of what was happening in the series by doing so to make everything more interesting.

Of these three scenarios, the only plausible one I see is scenario C. This is why I think we should expect to see this, and why we should probably believe the things he said about the relationships between Touma and his friends.

I can't really think of any other glaring reason Kamachi would have used Othinus as a plot twist to help the future development of the series. If you guys see some by all means please feel free to comment.

Ravagerblade · 2014-03-16, 17:56

So by what your saying here that Kamachi wanted to change the status quo by; breaking touma and him becoming a better character overall, plot twist is that he is helping a *villain* in the eyes of the *world* but what really happening is that Touma has somebody that he can relate to for once, same applies to Othinus. am I right?

dniv · 2014-03-16, 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

So by what your saying here that Kamachi wanted to change the status quo by; breaking touma and him becoming a better character overall, plot twist is that he is helping a *villain* in the eyes of the *world* but what really happening is that Touma has somebody that he can relate to for once, same applies to Othinus. am I right?

Yes, except that I also think the plot twist entails that Touma Kamijou's relationships with his friends are going to be severely affected because of his choice in Version Omega. (My basis for this viewpoint is the comment by the Will of the Misaka Network that Touma will need to rebuild his friendships so that he can eventually look his friends in the eye again. After all, his friends' attitude towards Othinus should be similar to their attitude towards Touma after they find out what he did. This is probably why he felt like his friends were more fired up than usual at the end of last volume.)

Ravagerblade · 2014-03-16, 18:13

By fired up you mean Index acting differently than what touma remembers I assume. Which that actually brings me to a thought that, wasn't it said that only 99% of the original world is now back, so if Index's behavior is the result of that cause, then couldn't we assume other changes have occurred? Via characters that were once dead, now alive (say Frenda and or other characters some still dead some not) (lol I know it seems like a stretch but that's what I had thought of at the time of finishing the Volume).

dniv · 2014-03-16, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

By fired up you mean Index acting differently than what touma remembers I assume. Which that actually brings me to a thought that, wasn't it said that only 99% of the original world is now back, so if Index's behavior is the result of that cause, then couldn't we assume other changes have occurred? Via characters that were once dead, now alive (say Frenda and or other characters some still dead some not) (lol I know it seems like a stretch but that's what I had thought of at the time of finishing the Volume).

I'm not sure though if it's different in this case because Othinus used Imagine Breaker to peel off a layer instead of creating a new one.

Though one other major plot point I just realized is that if Touma confronts Index about the truth, then he'll probably have to tell her that she was living with Kanzaki and Styl before she was living with him... Maybe that will lead to 120% beast-mode Index?

Requiem-x · 2014-03-17, 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by dniv

I'm not sure though if it's different in this case because Othinus used Imagine Breaker to peel off a layer instead of creating a new one.

Though one other major plot point I just realized is that if Touma confronts Index about the truth, then he'll probably have to tell her that she was living with Kanzaki and Styl before she was living with him... Maybe that will lead to 120% beast-mode Index?

Not really, he doesn't have to specify that much, just let her know everything was better. Stiyl would be pissed, but only because things were better for Index. Kanzaki might be harder to predict.

LevelSeven · 2014-03-17, 17:25

i wonder how mikoto would react, afterall it would be like he killed the 10000 who was revived again....

in accels case: (because touma wanted his selfish wish): accel killed the 10000 clones, is crippled, lived most of his life inside the darkness, breaks down mentally more than a few times, got killed a few times/severely injured....
if i would be accel i could never forgive him, afterall touma stopped him from having a happy live....

maybe shiage too after he hears that frenda lived, rikou didnt go through this trouble, mugino wasnt badly injured and fremea was never in danger.....

if anyone would take this to lightly and simply says that they would accept his choice, that would be bad,

at least i think nobody would ever help him or seek his near after they hear what happened, im not sure for Index but styil would want to kill him and kanzaki wouldnt want him near her since because of him Index will never live a life without fear because of magicians....

Ravagerblade · 2014-03-17, 17:31

Ah but that's the Beauty of it. At least for me in a way, I have many ways I could see this going down. With so many character out there with different personalities; it's a powder keg waiting to go KABOOM! and from a story-plotting setting (if that's what it is) the author could go down the Power of Friendship road after touma does his boss rush, or It gets worse for him forgot the trope its called I think its Darker horizon ahead or whatever.

allfictions · 2014-03-17, 17:35

Dude, we can pretty much turn this around:

The clones wouldn't have existed in the first place.

If Accelerator didn't go through the experiment, he would have probably become a lot worse because no one stopped him early.

If Accelerator hadn't be crippled, he wouldn't have learned humility, how to overcome one's weaknesses through effort and willpower, and he would have probably become addicted to his own power.

And finally, if he didn't go through all this shit, Accelerator would have never gained a family, and would have stayed lonely at the top for the rest of his life.

Likewise, if Frenda lived and if Mugino hadn't been defeated by Hamazura, she would have continued on her path of self destruction, and none of the ITEM members would have been able to leave the darkness.

Seriously, it's like you are totally dismissing each of these characters' growth, each of their decisions and how they decided to take responsibility for them, and how they live happy lives right now, to take cheap shots at a development you don't like.

It's like resetting Uncle Ben's death from Peter Parker's life and saying ''He will be much happier now!''

No, you don't know, and don't act like you do.

Each life is made of tragedies as much as comedies, if not more, and it's what determine who we become and what kind of life we live. Denying it is refusing to grow up, and sitting on the backseat expecting a total stranger to be at the wheel of your own life.

Chaos2Frozen · 2014-03-17, 17:45

How many people are willing to bury him for their own selfish happiness?

Maybe some, but for most of the core characters they wouldn't be able to do it.

They are more than willing to sacrifice themselves for the happiness of others, but never do they sacrifice others for the happiness of themselves.

Requiem-x · 2014-03-17, 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by allfictions

Dude, we can pretty much turn this around:

The clones wouldn't have existed in the first place.

If Accelerator didn't go through the experiment, he would have probably become a lot worse because no one stopped him early.

If Accelerator hadn't be crippled, he wouldn't have learned humility, how to overcome one's weaknesses through effort and willpower, and he would have probably become addicted to his own power.

And finally, if he didn't go through all this shit, Accelerator would have never gained a family, and would have stayed lonely at the top for the rest of his life.

Likewise, if Frenda lived and if Mugino hadn't been defeated by Hamazura, she would have continued on her path of self destruction, and none of the ITEM members would have been able to leave the darkness.

Seriously, it's like you are totally dismissing each of these characters' growth, each of their decisions and how they decided to take responsibility for them, and how they live happy lives right now, to take cheap shots at a development you don't like.

It's like resetting Uncle Ben's death form Peter Parker's life and saying ''He will be much happier now!''

No, you don't know, and don't act like you do.

Each life is made of tragedies as much as comedies, if not more, and it's what determine who we become and what kind of life we live. Denying it is refusing to grow up, and sitting on the backseat expecting a total stranger to be at the wheel of your own life.

You're basically playing Will-tan's role right now, you know? I agree with you, just wanted to make the comment.

Birdway · 2014-03-17, 19:04

No!
He isn't moe.

dniv · 2014-03-17, 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by allfictions

Dude, we can pretty much turn this around:

The clones wouldn't have existed in the first place.

If Accelerator didn't go through the experiment, he would have probably become a lot worse because no one stopped him early.

If Accelerator hadn't be crippled, he wouldn't have learned humility, how to overcome one's weaknesses through effort and willpower, and he would have probably become addicted to his own power.

And finally, if he didn't go through all this shit, Accelerator would have never gained a family, and would have stayed lonely at the top for the rest of his life.

Likewise, if Frenda lived and if Mugino hadn't been defeated by Hamazura, she would have continued on her path of self destruction, and none of the ITEM members would have been able to leave the darkness.

Seriously, it's like you are totally dismissing each of these characters' growth, each of their decisions and how they decided to take responsibility for them, and how they live happy lives right now, to take cheap shots at a development you don't like.

It's like resetting Uncle Ben's death from Peter Parker's life and saying ''He will be much happier now!''

No, you don't know, and don't act like you do.

Each life is made of tragedies as much as comedies, if not more, and it's what determine who we become and what kind of life we live. Denying it is refusing to grow up, and sitting on the backseat expecting a total stranger to be at the wheel of your own life.

I also agree with you, and I was going to say something similar but I wasn't near my computer at the time.

Accelerator is one of the few characters who I see forgiving Touma immediately with complete understanding. "The dead can only be understood by those who killed the dead..." Yada yada yada...

Miraluka · 2014-03-17, 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by dniv

I also agree with you, and I was going to say something similar but I wasn't near my computer at the time.

Accelerator is one of the few characters who I see forgiving Touma immediately with complete understanding. "The dead can only be understood by those who killed the dead..." Yada yada yada...

And the glorious one.

LevelSeven · 2014-03-18, 01:32

@allfictions and others

have you guys seen utopia world?? than tell me are they happier living in the "normal" world??

they lived a happy live without the side effects....

it is like saving uncle ben and spider-man still saves everybody.....

so would you forgive someone who destroyed your happy future because he wanted his selfish wish??
in which way is this better than killing 20.000 clones to reach a selfish goal too ?? (i know this wasnt mentioned by anyone but since 99% think that it was bad that accel have done this, im confused why nobody bothers themselfes to look with the "other" point of view)

demino_hellsin · 2014-03-18, 01:46

I treat the happy world as a completely different world. Rewriting their memories make them a different person to me just as the Kamijou Touma of now is different from the Kamijou Touma who died in volume 1.

If I knew the viewpoints of everyone here by heart, then one day it all changed. The same person, the same tone but viewpoints and memories so far removed from those previously had that they became a stranger. Isn't it like the people I knew ceased to exist? They may all as well have died. To me, in exchange for all the happiness in the omega world, the original world had to die.

It's probably no justification but someone might understand this just as well. Even if they were fine with disappearing just so the person they cared about would come back to life, would they wish to reset everyone else to achieve this? I don't think any of the characters in TAMNI would make that choice. Even Accelerator.

2014-03-16, 10:48	Link #2163
kazzuya13 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012	I hope after the Gremlin arc. The Aleister Arc comes next. I think that Touma's imagine breaker is more than they understand. Cause I believe that it is more than a reset key. __________________ My Heart is Pocky

2014-03-16, 17:56	Link #2166
Ravagerblade The Fearless Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: "United" States	So by what your saying here that Kamachi wanted to change the status quo by; breaking touma and him becoming a better character overall, plot twist is that he is helping a villain in the eyes of the world but what really happening is that Touma has somebody that he can relate to for once, same applies to Othinus. am I right? __________________ “No, I don’t get it at all. I may claim to ‘understand’ Othinus, but I only know her as a girl. I don’t understand anything when it comes to her being a Magic God.” - Touma NT13 Last edited by Ravagerblade; 2014-03-16 at 17:57. Reason: Spelling Fix

2014-03-16, 18:13	Link #2168
Ravagerblade The Fearless Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: "United" States	By fired up you mean Index acting differently than what touma remembers I assume. Which that actually brings me to a thought that, wasn't it said that only 99% of the original world is now back, so if Index's behavior is the result of that cause, then couldn't we assume other changes have occurred? Via characters that were once dead, now alive (say Frenda and or other characters some still dead some not) (lol I know it seems like a stretch but that's what I had thought of at the time of finishing the Volume). __________________ “No, I don’t get it at all. I may claim to ‘understand’ Othinus, but I only know her as a girl. I don’t understand anything when it comes to her being a Magic God.” - Touma NT13

2014-03-17, 17:31	Link #2172
Ravagerblade The Fearless Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: "United" States	Ah but that's the Beauty of it. At least for me in a way, I have many ways I could see this going down. With so many character out there with different personalities; it's a powder keg waiting to go KABOOM! and from a story-plotting setting (if that's what it is) the author could go down the Power of Friendship road after touma does his boss rush, or It gets worse for him forgot the trope its called I think its Darker horizon ahead or whatever. __________________ “No, I don’t get it at all. I may claim to ‘understand’ Othinus, but I only know her as a girl. I don’t understand anything when it comes to her being a Magic God.” - Touma NT13

2014-03-17, 17:35	Link #2173
allfictions Of Infinite Resignation Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Canada Age: 28	Dude, we can pretty much turn this around: The clones wouldn't have existed in the first place. If Accelerator didn't go through the experiment, he would have probably become a lot worse because no one stopped him early. If Accelerator hadn't be crippled, he wouldn't have learned humility, how to overcome one's weaknesses through effort and willpower, and he would have probably become addicted to his own power. And finally, if he didn't go through all this shit, Accelerator would have never gained a family, and would have stayed lonely at the top for the rest of his life. Likewise, if Frenda lived and if Mugino hadn't been defeated by Hamazura, she would have continued on her path of self destruction, and none of the ITEM members would have been able to leave the darkness. Seriously, it's like you are totally dismissing each of these characters' growth, each of their decisions and how they decided to take responsibility for them, and how they live happy lives right now, to take cheap shots at a development you don't like. It's like resetting Uncle Ben's death from Peter Parker's life and saying ''He will be much happier now!'' No, you don't know, and don't act like you do. Each life is made of tragedies as much as comedies, if not more, and it's what determine who we become and what kind of life we live. Denying it is refusing to grow up, and sitting on the backseat expecting a total stranger to be at the wheel of your own life. __________________ This is nine! Nine! This is nine! Nine! This is ten! Ten! We have killed your friends! Every friend is now dead! This is six! Six! ... Eighteen! This is now eighteen! Take cover when the siren sounds! This is four! Four! ... Five! This is five! Ignore the siren! Even if you leave this room, you can never leave this room! Eight! This is eight! ... Six, this is six. This is goddamn fucking six! Last edited by allfictions; 2014-03-17 at 18:05.

2014-03-16, 05:11	Link #2162
demino_hellsin That one guy Join Date: Nov 2011	I mean his precognition has always been predicting his enemy's manner of attack so he can find a way to defend or counter, but it has never predicted an opponent's defense so he can plan an attack.

2014-03-16, 10:51	Link #2164
Draco Spirit Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013	Which says a lot about Touma really, the guys got "defend" written in him to his core, every time he gets involved in something, it to protect another.

2014-03-17, 17:25	Link #2171
LevelSeven Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Germany	i wonder how mikoto would react, afterall it would be like he killed the 10000 who was revived again.... in accels case: (because touma wanted his selfish wish): accel killed the 10000 clones, is crippled, lived most of his life inside the darkness, breaks down mentally more than a few times, got killed a few times/severely injured.... if i would be accel i could never forgive him, afterall touma stopped him from having a happy live.... maybe shiage too after he hears that frenda lived, rikou didnt go through this trouble, mugino wasnt badly injured and fremea was never in danger..... if anyone would take this to lightly and simply says that they would accept his choice, that would be bad, at least i think nobody would ever help him or seek his near after they hear what happened, im not sure for Index but styil would want to kill him and kanzaki wouldnt want him near her since because of him Index will never live a life without fear because of magicians....

2014-03-17, 17:45	Link #2174
Chaos2Frozen We're Back Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Redgrave City Age: 35	How many people are willing to bury him for their own selfish happiness? Maybe some, but for most of the core characters they wouldn't be able to do it. They are more than willing to sacrifice themselves for the happiness of others, but never do they sacrifice others for the happiness of themselves. __________________ Devil Trigger , Subhuman , Crimson Cloud , Mad Qualia

2014-03-17, 19:04	Link #2176
Birdway Banned Join Date: Jul 2012	No! He isn't moe.

2014-03-18, 01:32	Link #2179
LevelSeven Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Germany	@allfictions and others have you guys seen utopia world?? than tell me are they happier living in the "normal" world?? they lived a happy live without the side effects.... it is like saving uncle ben and spider-man still saves everybody..... so would you forgive someone who destroyed your happy future because he wanted his selfish wish?? in which way is this better than killing 20.000 clones to reach a selfish goal too ?? (i know this wasnt mentioned by anyone but since 99% think that it was bad that accel have done this, im confused why nobody bothers themselfes to look with the "other" point of view)

2014-03-18, 01:46	Link #2180
demino_hellsin That one guy Join Date: Nov 2011	I treat the happy world as a completely different world. Rewriting their memories make them a different person to me just as the Kamijou Touma of now is different from the Kamijou Touma who died in volume 1. If I knew the viewpoints of everyone here by heart, then one day it all changed. The same person, the same tone but viewpoints and memories so far removed from those previously had that they became a stranger. Isn't it like the people I knew ceased to exist? They may all as well have died. To me, in exchange for all the happiness in the omega world, the original world had to die. It's probably no justification but someone might understand this just as well. Even if they were fine with disappearing just so the person they cared about would come back to life, would they wish to reset everyone else to achieve this? I don't think any of the characters in TAMNI would make that choice. Even Accelerator.