Character Discussion - Kallen

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Sanger Zonvolt

Suzaku avoided killing at all cost, both in season 1 and R2, until he became the Knight of Zero. Kallen always went for the kill, and killing Shirley or any other innocents who were little suspicious of them would not of been justified.

Don't mistake it for a bash of her though, it's one of the many aspects I enjoyed about her.

the thing with sheirly was a joke more then anything else (you see the knife isn't in her hand when sheirly turns around)
and she was threatening Lelouch because he all but TOLD her he knows who she is (so its not a little suspicious)
as for going for the kill ON THE BATTLEFIELD, well duh.
she's not facing cute fluffy puppies
her enemies are people who seem, for the most part, absolutely thrilled at the prospect of getting to shoot innocent civilians
why should she hold back

and suzaku stopped trying to avoid killing people half way through season 1 (he was shooting at people in the tanker)

[Sanger Zonvolt]

You seem to take this as something negative, but I am actually praising her character for the most part.

She was a strong person to do what she did, and what I meant is she was a natural at it. It's why she was one of the best pilots in the series.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Sanger Zonvolt

You seem to take this as something negative, but I am actually praising her character for the most part.

She was a strong person to do what she did, and what I meant is she was a natural at it. It's why she was one of the best pilots in the series.

i'm taking it as a negative because it implies that she just kills people for no proper reason because its something she finds easy to do
like she's a psycho or something
when thats not the case at all, as has been shown throughout the show

yes, she kills people for her goal
but thats just it
she fights FOR something, not just because killing comes naturally for her

you HAVE characters in the show who kill for little to no reason (gino and anya are good examples)
kallen fights for something thats actually worth killing over
and thats quite a difference

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Which I never stated and you interpreted the wrong way.

/end

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Sanger Zonvolt

Kallen's past wasn't one of much suffering or terrible atrocities, yet she could kill so casually.

I guess it was just in her nature.

that phrasing is like saying "guess its just her nature to be a psycho who kills people"
you might not have MENT to say that
but thats how it came out

[Sanger Zonvolt]

In her nature to be an effective killer yes, to be a psycho who kills for enjoyment? No.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

Wait. I don't even remember what was the argument and I'm too tired to look back, but when it comes to law, if some conditions aren't fulfilled the basic rule is that the leader is responsible for his subordinate.
If we had to take the whole Kallen/Lelouch issue into custody, Lelouch would be responsible, you have everything to have him burn at stake for Kallen's mistakes.

Hum, maybe it's a country thing? Either that, or I just don't know enough about law, which is quite possible. However, they both were minors with issues, and if Lelouch wanted to, he'd totally twist everything in his favour somehow.
But...

But it's not about law so...

This.
Ugh, exams. I can relate.

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Don't worry Kallen! I'll protect you!... Marginally better then Nogitsune would, and she is liable to trade you in for a hug from Clovis.

Ah, you know me too well. xD

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

not all that much
Lelouch spent the first part of his life in britannia

Where he was only surrounded by enemies and vassals, as he himself said... and a few members of his family whom he was close to. One was murdered, the other lost her eyes and legs, and that pretty much only leaves Euphie, whom he could never see again without bringing himself and Nunnaly at risk. And for all this, as well as for his sparation from his first and closest friend, he blamed Britannia - or, to be more precise, his father, whom he believes is to blame that Britannia is "rotten".

another year with suzaku's family (which he admits was the happiest time of his life)

Sure, being a hostage is great.
As far as I remember, Lelouch said the time he and Nunnally spent with Suzaku was the happy one. They became friends in summer, and when they arrived Lelouch was still nine. That means half a year living in fear, completely on their own (except if they arrived very early in the year, that is, which is also quite possible). When C.C. appears in that one Sound Drama, he thinks she might be an assassin.
Also, did you listen to "The Uninvited Prince"? Lelouch was so bitter about the whole thing it's not funny. And don't forget he was still very young - he saw people die during the invasion just like Kallen did, and saw his own mother die long before Naoto even started his resistance.

and the rest living with the ashfords (another noble family)

Whom he feared would abandon him and his sister eventually, and they'd have no chance to fight back.

he never suffered oppression by britannia
and hence his willingness to kill them all is quite perplexing

You really think so?
Lelouch doesn't distinguish between Britannian and Japanese civilian. He does, however, want to change things - for his sister, for his own sense of justice, and because he desires revenge. For this, he'll do what is necessary.
To Lelouch, killing someone is killing someone, no matter what county they were born in.

she's one of the few characters who actually HAS a reason to fight against her enemies (both Lelouch and suzkau fight against their own people)

I agree, except... Lelouch and Suzaku have no reason to fight? What?
They have just as much reason as Kallen does.

Edit:
And Suzaku was no better than Lelouch or Kallen. You don't have to kill people directly to cause their deaths, or make their life a living hell.

[Bonzo]

This can be a visual perspective of Kallen's climate:

Spoiler for A little strong:

[azul120]

I think one of the reasons Lelouch smiled so twistedly after he first used the Geass was because of what his father had put him through with the whole "Britannia has no use for the weak!" spiel, and that he was moments away from being helplessly gunned down by Britannian soldiers who had engaged in wanton massacre. Not to mention his related distaste for arrogant nobles, all of which tied in to his angst at not being able to do something. So that moment, in which he finally tasted that opportunity to change things he had long been waiting for, was nothing if not cathartic for him.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I agree, except... Lelouch and Suzaku have no reason to fight? What?
They have just as much reason as Kallen does.

Edit:
And Suzaku was no better than Lelouch or Kallen. You don't have to kill people directly to cause their deaths, or make their life a living hell.

my point was about a reason to fight against WHO they are fighting
suzaku fights against his own people on the side of those who oppress them
and Lelouch has no reason to oppose britannia
all he has are his own "daddy issues" that motivate him
it sounds kinda cruel to say, but its true, his reason for opposing britannia is his hatred of his father

[Nogitsune]

@azul120:
Agreed.
That, and he had been powerless for such a long time that this new ability of his really must have thrilled him.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

my point was about a reason to fight against WHO they are fighting
suzaku fights against his own people on the side of those who oppress them
and Lelouch has no reason to oppose britannia
all he has are his own "daddy issues" that motivate him
it sounds kinda cruel to say, but its true, his reason for opposing britannia is his hatred of his father

Uhm, no - that's half of his reason.
The other half is that he felt constantly threatened by Britannia, meaning that Nunnally was also in danger, and in episode 5, it became very clear that he and Suzaku aren't so different. Lelouch saw Britannia's cruelty and wanted to change it - because deep down, he has a very strong sense of justice himself.

[azul120]

Well, it was largely because of what Charles did to him. But it was just as much to create a better world for himself and Nunnally. He couldn't stand what Britannia and its ruling class stood for, hence his only gambling against nobility in chess games.

And early on in the series, before he forms the BKs, he worries about not only the Ashfords, but also his friends, abandoning him and Nunnally, if their secret came out, on top of being used as political pawns once again.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

my point was about a reason to fight against WHO they are fighting
suzaku fights against his own people on the side of those who oppress them
and Lelouch has no reason to oppose britannia
all he has are his own "daddy issues" that motivate him
it sounds kinda cruel to say, but its true, his reason for opposing britannia is his hatred of his father

Alternate Character Interpretations.

Another view is that he fought on behalf of all oppressed people, but due to his myriad other issues, he didn't want to ackowledge that what he was doing was for a greater good, thus he rationalized that he was a Villain With Good Publicity.

EDIT:

@Nogitsune: As for Kallen's childhood, remember the mistreatment Lelouch got at the Kururugi shrine? He was left in a storehouse, ignored by the "security" unless he tried to kill himself, and was severely beaten (kicked in the head and torso) by other children. Apply this to Kallen for the first 14 or so years of her life, an a pretty picture it does not make. The Japanese were every bit as racist as the Britannians even before they were invaded, and Kallen was a vulnerable child wearing "the face of the enemy."

As admitted in her poem, she had basically given up on life prior to Zero's appearance. She fought believing it would do nothing but lead to her own death.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Alternate Character Interpretations.

Another view is that he fought on behalf of all oppressed people, but due to his myriad other issues, he didn't want to ackowledge that what he was doing was for a greater good, thus he rationalized that he was a Villain With Good Publicity.

In episode 5, he even said that he wanted to break the "ongoing chain of hatred" just like Suzaku did. Add to that his concern for elderly couples and people involved in car crashs and his eventual willingness to work with Euphemia, and I find it very hard to blame everything on his desire for revenge.

Lelouch himself admitted that Nunnally might just have been an excuse. This means that either that whole "he is trapped between the past and teh future thing" in all the previews was just for fun, or he really did want to change things. Okouchi wanted to make Lelouch a "modern hero", and amongst other things said:

Lelouch's enemy is his father, he treasures his family (younger sister), and harbors righteous indignation against the world... Whenever youths are mentioned in the news, there is a tendency to put the spotlight on only a certain group of the them, like those who are arrogant or violent. In actuality, the ones giving up their seats to the elderly on trains are, more often than not, young people, and not middle-aged men and women.

Saying Lelouch did it all for revenge is picking the worst possible interpretation of his motives and ignoring everything else.

Edit:
The first 14 years of her life? Britannia only invaded when she was about 10. Hum, or did she live in Britannia before?

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Edit:
The first 14 years of her life? Britannia only invaded when she was about 10. Hum, or did she live in Britannia before?

She lived in Japan her whole life from what we know. She lived as a Japanese person at least until partway through middleschool, as Milly brought some records to her home for signatures in Stage 9 and Kallen asked if the secret that she was half Eleven was out then.

[Arbitres]

Whoa, what did I miss? What did I miss? Anything juicy? No? Go figure.

This is becoming useless. Could we drop this? Pretty please? This is becoming incredibly redundant in the scheme of things. Perspectively speaking...

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

She lived in Japan her whole life from what we know. She lived as a Japanese person at least until partway through middleschool, as Milly brought some records to her home for signatures in Stage 9 and Kallen asked if the secret that she was half Eleven was out then.

Ah, now after the edit, I get it. xD
But seeing how attached Kallen is to Japan and how lowly she thinks of Britannians in the beginning, I have trouble believing she was treated too badly.
Lelouch had no one to protect him, was a "pure" Britannian and a prince at that. I've seen nothing that suggests that Kallen's childhood wasn't a happy one.

Edit: @Arbitres:
I don't see why we should drop this. No one is killing the other, it's about Kallen (uh, kinda), and while the discussion might indeed end up going in cycles, we are free to waste our time however we want. xD

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Ah, now after the edit, I get it. xD
But seeing how attached Kallen is to Japan and how lowly she thinks of Britannians in the beginning, I have trouble believing she was treated too badly.
Lelouch had no one to protect him, was a "pure" Britannian and a prince at that. I've seen nothing that suggests that Kallen's childhood wasn't a happy one.

Edit: @Arbitres:
I don't see why we should drop this. No one is killing the other, it's about Kallen (uh, kinda), and while the discussion might indeed end up going in cycles, we are free to waste our time however we want. xD

because half breeds usually get treated well by xenophobic societies right ?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

because half breeds usually get treated well by xenophobic societies right ?

Well, normally, I would agree, but Kallen draws too clear a line between Briannians and Japanese in the beginning for me to believe this probable.

If she'd been tormented, it would have come up somewhere, I think.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Well, normally, I would agree, but Kallen draws too clear a line between Briannians and Japanese in the beginning for me to believe this probable.

If she'd been tormented, it would have come up somewhere, I think.

her mother mentions that now that kallen's a britannian she "can go to a britannian school and not be bullied anymore"