AnimeSuki Forums

bhl88 · 2012-12-20, 00:31

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

Signum, Vita and Zafira would naturally kick his ass, due to the fact that they relies on close combat more than many others.

Vita would ask him to take responsibility....

Oh right, they are programs... I wonder what would happen to them if Touma touches them.

In one comic I saw, touching Witches cancels the contract and restores them as humans.

Justin_Brett · 2012-12-20, 00:35

Well obviously nothing now, but when he fought that demon the fire guy summoned, it didn't kill him or anything, just sent him back to where he came from. So it'd be the Book of Darkness then.

Rising Dragon · 2012-12-20, 00:40

Touma's Imagine Breaker did in fact destroy Innocentus, the problem is that the runes continually remade and maintained it, so no matter how much he destroyed it it'd regenerate. So it'd hold true on the Wolkenritter... so long as this hypothetical battle took place before Reinforce sacrificed herself to destroy the Book of Darkness for good.

Justin_Brett · 2012-12-20, 00:51

Yeah, but then he came back later even when Touma punched him after the runes were washed away.

Rising Dragon · 2012-12-20, 00:53

Yeah, because there was still one more source remaining: Stiyl. But for him, he'd have to actively summon Innocentus again, and there was no way that was going to happen before Touma knocked his block off.

Justin_Brett · 2012-12-20, 01:01

Ah, alright.

Does Touma ever use ingenuity like that again in the series, or is it just more of him winning with DETERMINATION, like he did with the reality warping guy? Stopped watching after that.

Rising Dragon · 2012-12-20, 01:08

Yeah, several times in both seasons. Not all of his victories was ingenuity, but not all of it was just determination, either; sometimes he had backup because he wouldn't win on his own, or circumstances would turn in his favor. You should keep watching it past the Deep Blood arc.

Against a Nanoha character he'd need a good combination of circumstance and backup, because even with his gamebreaker power, some things are just unfair against him. Like flying.

Akiyoshi · 2012-12-20, 01:30

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

So? I said taht the mage's BODY produces the mana, NOT the Linker Core.

Doesn't change my argument one bit, the Linker Core takes mana from a source then allows the mage to dispose of said mana for it's use. As long as a source and alink exist it can be "divided". The Eclipse effect affect any structural magic, no only Mid/Belka ones.

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

Agito is a Unison Device. Mephistopheles is a freaking extra-dimensional demon. He's also the goddamn ruler of his own dimension. There's really no comparison, is there?

They don't need to beat mephistopheles, they just need to sever the link with it's emissary xD

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

Also, I took a look at Ghost Rider's power. Guess what, it came from a demon INSIDE him. The name is Zarathos. So unless they can separate those two, the skull chopper stil win. And no, his flames won't be negated. IFrom the wiki: Hellfire is an emphyreal and supernatural flame that burns the soul of a person and can be used to burn their physical body. And since the Hucks don't show any resistant to that kind of fuckery, they're still screwed.

Being a supernatural flame is bad news for Ghost Rider xD

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

Bolded the bigest problem in your argument. Strange doesn't use the same formula as the one in Nanoha, is there? It's like comparing Linux and Windows. Just because one program works on one system doesn't automaticaly mean that it will works on the other.

But uses a formula nontheless. Thge Eclipse effect is not "magic school" specific it only follows a simple ruel ...and we're just talking about common EC Drivers here. Zero Drivers can shut off any magic or energy for that matter (which means Tohma and maybe Curren can shut down ANY source of mystical power whatsoever if they go beyond limits).

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

You're comparing the Defense Program, a planet buster at best, to Dormammu, someone who's Universal level with the right conditions? And what the fuck is orthodox magic?

Excuse me? The Book of Darkness has wiped out entire DIMENSIONS. There's a reason the TSAB was so hot on their pursuing. Not only is practically unkillable, it also absorbs whatever they find usefull (potentially anything tha is strong enough to give it a good fight) increasing it's already monstruous powers further in the process. The heroes kind of cheated when they beat the thing in A's, it was very weakened when it got separated from Reinforce and it got blasted by a presumably country-buster cannon (and i think i'm being modest here) that displaces particles through dimensions (something only Top tier beings in MARVEL can do like the Beyonder for example). Heck, Dormammu has been beaten by Spider-Man of all people, there's no reason the Nanoha cast can't go against cosmic threats if well prepared xDU

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

As for Ghost Rider, the Penance Stare doesn't just mindfuck people. It can also soulfuck. So no, Hucks still die. And really, do you think that closing her eyes would works? Do you really think that she's the first one to use that tactics?

I wonder how can you soulfuck someone whose soul is already fucked, and the ones tried fight without looking aren't Curren Huckebein xD

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

... I think I see the problem. They beat SIgnum, your idol => They're super strong. Is that it?

Yeah, that has some influence, but after seeing all the Nanoha cast failing to do any sort of significant damage to them and suppossedly superpowerful experimental weapons failing time after time to do something impressive against them (heck they even failed to do something to Carter Grendel, a far weaker EC Driver). Said impression of strenght got remarked ...specially with Curren who stompped Vita (easily the physically strongest member of the Wolkenritter who is almost on Miss Marvel's levels of Strenght) without even using her EC powers.

Justin_Brett · 2012-12-20, 01:41

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Excuse me? The Book of Darkness has wiped out entire DIMENSIONS.

...no it hasn't.

Akiyoshi · 2012-12-20, 01:45

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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

...no it hasn't.

yes it did it ...there's a reason as of why the Wolkenritter doesn't have tons and tons of goverments putting life sentence and death penalty worth charges against them. simply because there's no trace of them left behind xDU

Of course, the Wolks weren't the ultimately responsible for such devastation. Thge awakened Book was ..which makes Yuri Evelwin the single most powerfull being in the Nanohaverse and one that can take on MARVEL's heavy hitters the size of Jormunggand xD

Justin_Brett · 2012-12-20, 01:48

What kind of leap of logic is that? They've never been charged with foreign governments, so the dimensions containing them must have been destroyed?

Akiyoshi · 2012-12-20, 01:54

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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

What kind of leap of logic is that? They've never been charged with foreign governments, so the dimensions containing them must have been destroyed?

give me a more believable explanation then xD?

So ok, we agree the Hucks can't take on Primordial beings (Odin, Dormmamu, Surtur, Shuma gorath and the like). Fine, i myself stablished that on my first post, aside of that they're very threatening foes to the the MARVEL verse (Wolverine is somehow renowed as a top tier badass while his powers are similar to the basic EC powerset but far weaker). I'm pretty sure the Avengers can beat them after a hard fight if Thor appears or HULK gets angry enough ...or if Tony prepares a countermeasure for a second match ...but other teams without the luck of having godlike beings on their side like say ...the X-Men when Phoenix is not around. They would have a pretty hard time dealing with the Hucks ..and they didn't even use magic xDU

Lhklan · 2012-12-20, 01:56

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Doesn't change my argument one bit, the Linker Core takes mana from a source then allows the mage to dispose of said mana for it's use. As long as a source and alink exist it can be "divided". The Eclipse effect affect any structural magic, no only Mid/Belka ones.

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They don't need to beat mephistopheles, they just need to sever the link with it's emissary xD

yeah, like severing an ethereal link something that occurs inside someone's body is easy.

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Being a supernatural flame is bad news for Ghost Rider xD

Now you're just wanking. Since when did Eclispe Virus = Imagine Breaker?

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But uses a formula nontheless. Thge Eclipse effect is not "magic school" specific it only follows a simple ruel ...and we're just talking about common EC Drivers here. Zero Drivers can shut off any magic or energy for that matter (which means Tohma and maybe Curren can shut down ANY source of mystical power whatsoever if they go beyond limits).

Yeah, no. Again, different multiverse, different rules. You can't expect it to work in every verse. Because if that's true, Flash would have kicked a lot of ass in the JLA-Avengers xover. But he didn't. Why? Cause the Speed Force - his source of power - exist in the DC multiverse but didn't exist in Marvel multiverse.

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Excuse me? The Book of Darkness has wiped out entire DIMENSIONS. There's a reason the TSAB was so hot on their pursuing. Not only is practically unkillable, it also absorbs whatever they find usefull (potentially anything tha is strong enough to give it a good fight) increasing it's already monstruous powers further in the process. The heroes kind of cheated when they beat the thing in A's, it was very weakened when it got separated from Reinforce and it got blasted by a presumably country-buster cannon (and i think i'm being modest here) that displaces particles through dimensions (something only Top tier beings in MARVEL can do like the Beyonder for example). Heck, Dormammu has been beaten by Spider-Man of all people, there's no reason the Nanoha cast can't go against cosmic threats if well prepared xDU

I wonder how can you soulfuck someone whose soul is already fucked, and the ones tried fight without looking aren't Curren Huckebein xD

Nope.jpg. Nanoha's dimensions resemble more like that of planets. The Dimensional Space is like the Warp space one you usually see in sci-fy show, whenever a ship want to travel between two planets. It's why I called the BoD planet buster at it best. Proof: The rules between the different dimensions in Nanoha are the same. OTOH, compare Dormammu's dimension with that of Marvel-616 Earth. Or Asgard and Midgard for that matter. They're drastically different, to the point that people from Asgard are veritable God on Midgard.

As for the Arc-en-Ciel, it's a particles dissolving canon. Something which you see a lot in sci-fy actually.

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Yeah, that has some influence, but after seeing all the Nanoha cast failing to do any sort of significant damage to them and suppossedly superpowerful experimental weapons failing time after time to do something impressive against them (heck they even failed to do something to Carter Grendel, a far weaker EC Driver). Said impression of strenght got remarked ...specially with Curren who stompped Vita (easily the physically strongest member of the Wolkenritter who is almost on Miss Marvel's levels of Strenght) without even using her EC powers.

*snort* Not some. BIG influence.

Justin_Brett · 2012-12-20, 01:58

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give me a more believable explanation then xD?

Tsuzuki didn't feel like being redundant, since people in the TSAB were already distrusting of them for years?

Rising Dragon · 2012-12-20, 02:02

We only know that the Book of Darkness obliterated worlds, which is, y'know, enough to destroy the governments on said worlds that would otherwise charge the Wolkenritter for such acts. Not once has it ever been said that it obliterated entire dimensions--I imagine if it could the whole reality would destabilize from entire dimensions suddenly disappearing.

Akiyoshi · 2012-12-20, 02:10

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

yeah, like severing an ethereal link something that occurs inside someone's body is easy.

Interesting, i tought the Linker Core was an ethereal organ with an ethereal link xDU

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

Now you're just wanking. Since when did Eclispe Virus = Imagine Breaker?

Oh c'mon, i tought the similitudes are just obvious enough xDU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lhklan

Yeah, no. Again, different multiverse, different rules. You can't expect it to work in every verse. Because if that's true, Flash would have kicked a lot of ass in the JLA-Avengers xover. But he didn't. Why? Cause the Speed Force - his source of power - exist in the DC multiverse but didn't exist in Marvel multiverse.

That was plot convenience to spare Quicksilver from looking like a pansy slowpoke at Flash's side xDU ...if Anything that can go both ways, the Hucks being from adifferent universe could be ending more effective against some stuff of the Marvel Universe.

By the way, let's just stick with Earth-616 ok? nothing of that "Ultimate" crap xDU

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

Nope.jpg. Nanoha's dimensions resemble more like that of planets. The Dimensional Space is like the Warp space one you usually see in sci-fy show, whenever a ship want to travel between two planets. It's why I called the BoD planet buster at it best.

Source or it never happened

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

Proof: The rules between the different dimensions in Nanoha are the same.

Yeah, because we have watched so many dimensions, and that doesn't mean anything. Most of "Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicles" visited dimensions have similar rules and it was clearly stated they're different universes altogheter.

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

OTOH, compare Dormammu's dimension with that of Marvel-616 Earth. Or Asgard and Midgard for that matter. They're drastically different, to the point that people from Asgard are veritable God on Midgard.

Nothing to complain here just a comment. Asgardians were worshipped as GODs by viking-era humans. They're still awfully powerfull by modern standards but current time humans do have effective methods to stand up to them. Don't believe anything that comes out from Loki's mouth about the humans being sooo inferior xDU In present day, their GOD status is more a cultural reference to the old tales narrated about them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lhklan

As for the Arc-en-Ciel, it's a particles dissolving canon. Something which you see a lot in sci-fy actually.

It was specifically adressed that the cannon not only dematerialize the molecules of the target, it also spreads them across dimensions (or "time and space" depending on the dub).

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

*snort* Not some. BIG influence.

whatever makes you feel better xD

Justin_Brett · 2012-12-20, 02:15

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Source or it never happened

You say that after citing shit that was never even hinted to happen in the series?

Akiyoshi · 2012-12-20, 02:17

It's difficult to do it when i'm trying to compare stuff from different fictional universes. But if you make a list i'll make an effort to satisfy your doubts.

Lhklan · 2012-12-20, 02:28

[QUOTE=Akiyoshi;4482493]Interesting, i tought the Linker Core was an ethereal organ with an ethereal link xDU

[/QUOTE[

Note: Spell is an external thing. So severing it is easier than say, severing Zarathos and Johnny.

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Oh c'mon, i tought the similitudes are just obvious enough xDU

Nope. Touma's power not only just destroy supernatural power, it also destroy normal things enhanced and/or tampered with supernatural power. Proof: The stone golem and Incentius.

Hucks is still affected by the AEC Armament, like when Signum VS Cypha.

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That was plot convenience to spare Quicksilver from looking like a pansy slowpoke at Flash's side xDU ...if Anything that can go both ways, the Hucks being from adifferent universe could be ending more effective against some stuff of the Marvel Universe.

By the way, let's just stick with Earth-616 ok? nothing of that "Ultimate" crap xDU

JLA-Avengers happened in the 616 verse. it was convenience, but why? TO level the playing field. Also, if you say that "the Hucks being from adifferent universe could be ending more effective against some stuff of the Marvel Universe." then you're just wanking them. Beside, Dormammu came from another dimension. He's WEAKER than in his home dimension.

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Yeah, because we have watched so many dimensions, and that doesn't mean anything. Most of "Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicles" visited dimensions have similar rules and it was clearly stated they're different universes altogheter.

Alright, I derped. It's a matter of personal opinion. It's not so much as the rule are differents but more like the history. To me, alternate dimensions means that they either have the exact same history but divert at some point; or it's so radically different, yet it still have the same people, just with different details.

Nanoha's dimensions, OTOH, doesn't fit either of those description. They doesn't share the exact same history, since we know that Mid Childa and Earth are so different to one another. Yet, even when they're so different, we don't see a version of Earth!Yuuno or Mid-Childa!Nanoha now does we? The former might be hard to see, but Nanoha is practically a famous figure in the TSAB. THe MC!Nanoha would have been curious to see her alternate self.

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It was specifically adressed that the cannon not only dematerialize the molecules of the target, it also spreads them across dimensions (or "time and space" depending on the dub).

That's the problem to me. If it's spreading them accros dimensions, as you said, then it's introducing foreign element into another dimensions. Why isn't the multiverse collapsing already? Just a small change but on a large scale like that means big trouble.

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whatever makes you feel better xD

And .... why should it makes me feel better? We're not talking about me now are we?

Akiyoshi · 2012-12-20, 02:35

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

That's the problem to me. If it's spreading them accros dimensions, as you said, then it's introducing foreign element into another dimensions. Why isn't the multiverse collapsing already? Just a small change but on a large scale like that means big trouble.

Don't ask me about that, maybe Tsuzuki just didn't care, just like how he didn't care about the implication of the Book of Darkness being a dimensional-wiper xDU

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Originally Posted by Lhklan

And .... why should it makes me feel better? We're not talking about me now are we?

I'm not the topic of the discussion either, we're her edicussing the possibility of a Nanoha FORCE/MARVEL crossover.

2012-12-20, 00:40	Link #843
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Touma's Imagine Breaker did in fact destroy Innocentus, the problem is that the runes continually remade and maintained it, so no matter how much he destroyed it it'd regenerate. So it'd hold true on the Wolkenritter... so long as this hypothetical battle took place before Reinforce sacrificed herself to destroy the Book of Darkness for good. __________________

2012-12-20, 00:53	Link #845
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Yeah, because there was still one more source remaining: Stiyl. But for him, he'd have to actively summon Innocentus again, and there was no way that was going to happen before Touma knocked his block off. __________________

2012-12-20, 01:08	Link #847
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Yeah, several times in both seasons. Not all of his victories was ingenuity, but not all of it was just determination, either; sometimes he had backup because he wouldn't win on his own, or circumstances would turn in his favor. You should keep watching it past the Deep Blood arc. Against a Nanoha character he'd need a good combination of circumstance and backup, because even with his gamebreaker power, some things are just unfair against him. Like flying. __________________

2012-12-20, 02:02	Link #855
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	We only know that the Book of Darkness obliterated worlds, which is, y'know, enough to destroy the governments on said worlds that would otherwise charge the Wolkenritter for such acts. Not once has it ever been said that it obliterated entire dimensions--I imagine if it could the whole reality would destabilize from entire dimensions suddenly disappearing. __________________

2012-12-20, 02:17	Link #858
Akiyoshi The Flame Crussader Join Date: Aug 2009	It's difficult to do it when i'm trying to compare stuff from different fictional universes. But if you make a list i'll make an effort to satisfy your doubts. __________________ May 29 2010-2019 ...9 years ago, the day after never would be the same ~The ASFB~

2012-12-20, 00:35	Link #842
Justin_Brett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie	Well obviously nothing now, but when he fought that demon the fire guy summoned, it didn't kill him or anything, just sent him back to where he came from. So it'd be the Book of Darkness then.

2012-12-20, 00:51	Link #844
Justin_Brett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie	Yeah, but then he came back later even when Touma punched him after the runes were washed away.

2012-12-20, 01:01	Link #846
Justin_Brett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie	Ah, alright. Does Touma ever use ingenuity like that again in the series, or is it just more of him winning with DETERMINATION, like he did with the reality warping guy? Stopped watching after that.

2012-12-20, 01:48	Link #851
Justin_Brett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie	What kind of leap of logic is that? They've never been charged with foreign governments, so the dimensions containing them must have been destroyed?