2011-09-05, 17:18 | Link #24201 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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But still I think the part of Ange's story was Toya's idea of what Ange was doing so the diary wouldn't exist or would exist but he made up what was inside. Same for the bank accounts. Ange and the people who received the money wouldn't have said it to the press so there's no way he learnt this from the media. Unless Yasu told him she left some money for the family of the people she were going to kill I think it's more likely among the things he vaguely remember there was a number connected to a bank account with that PIN (a bank account is in Ep 7 Tea Party also, though we aren't told the PIN) and made up that explanation to connect it to the number that came up from his memory and that showed up written on a door in Ep 3. Quote:
(Also I still think the whole story about Ange's travel existed only in Toya's mind but that's just me...) |
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2011-09-05, 17:19 | Link #24202 | ||
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2011-09-05, 17:21 | Link #24203 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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In short that scene is meta... although it might not look as such. |
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2011-09-05, 17:22 | Link #24204 |
The True Culprit
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You guys I just solved everything. First, my semi-serious idea:
Every depiction of 1998 is a forgery. Amakusa Juuza is a self-insert alternate version of Toya. It's awesome. --- Now for my troll idea: Toya Hachijou...is OTHER BATTLER. He wasn't actually stillborn, but was raised by...uh, someone else. Asumu's family or something. And he grew up to hate the Ushiromiyas all villainously and such. He did the murders, pretended to be Natsuhi's baby to troll her on the phone, and even mass-produced Sakutarou in order to spite Rosa's and Maria's relationship. He did absolutely everything. He managed to be on the island by taking up the free spot Shkanon allows, killed Battler, and took his place. Washing up later and being found by Ikuko, he took up the identity of Toya Hachijou, and reading the Message Bottles and writing his own Forgeries convinced him that he was actually Battler. Everything he remembered was pretty much entirely untrue because Amnesia doesn't fucking work that way. Everything about the logistics of Umineko is solved. And Ange was never reunited with her brother in any sense. Screw her.
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2011-09-05, 17:36 | Link #24206 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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It would be strange if she treasured that much Maria's diary but not her own brother's belongings. oh and: Quote:
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2011-09-05, 17:37 | Link #24207 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Toya vaguely remembered that people were killed using winchesters and that there was a connection with Maria and Beatrice. It's possible that the media had mentioned about how Maria carried the bunnies to school... or it's possible she had them on Rokkenjima and told the cousins 'before were 4 but then one died'. Logic wouldn't connect cute ceramic bunnies to gun but subconscious has no problems to make this connection (dreams are a pretty example of the absurd connections a mind can make). So in the end his mind had Maria's cute bunnies becoming the magical weapons of the culprit and therefore replace the winchesters. The fact that they're computers is possible due to another connection. The 7 sisters are based part on stake shaped paperweights and human servants. The fact they're partly human based gives them a brain. The Chiesters however are based on glass figures and weapons. They're objects. What's the object that looks as if it has almost a brain? A computer. And here you've the third connection. Of course that's just my vision. I tend to look at Umineko as if it was a dream whose symbolic scenes need to be interpretated through psychology but that's just my approach. Also psychology doesn't give you definite answers but just possibilities so I might be completely wrong. |
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2011-09-05, 17:46 | Link #24208 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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2011-09-05, 18:04 | Link #24209 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Also she might have not known their side of the story. In short her truth is biased, even though it can be sort of factually accurated. It's kind of like Kinzo's truth in Ep 7... he presents himself as a guy who was correct and not interest in the gold but in the tea party it's implied he might have been the one suggesting to steal the gold. If we believe what'sa said in tea party Kinzo's truth contained some truth, there was the gold, a riot between Italians and Japanese ensued, he and Beatrice survived, but the heart of the people was different. His superior office wasn't so evil and greedy, though he might have not liked him and honestly believed he was evil and greedy, which is why he described him as such. As well he could have removed the idea of suggesting to steal the gold due to the trauma of seeing so many people die. In the same way Eva might be telling the truth as she see it. She didn't mean to shot at Natsuhi but maybe she was pointing the gun at her, she was nervous, perceived a movement of Natsuhi as an aggression and shot point blank at her, killing her. Krauss more or less met the same end. Rosa wasn't so mean, she panicked because she viewed the thing as Eva and hideyoshi killing people for what looked like no good reason and maybe started threatening people with her weapon. Eva, who was under shock and didn't really mean to kill anyone, viewed her behaviour as her being mean. Kirye might have seen in them all a danger and shot at the three of them then, in order not to be arrested, might have decided to cover up everything getting rid of witnesses and bodies with the bomb. I'm making up this as I write so it's likely an explanation full of holes, but it's a possible alternate explanation that don't deny Eva's truth, just it's heart. I've to work out why Kirye and Rudolf would have massacred everyone else, maybe they still felt threatened by the fact they could spoke against them... anyway this is just the embrion of a theory, not a real theory so don't be too cruel with it, okay? Quote:
He didn't save Ange's parents, he didn't return to her, if he were to tell her the truth it would be an unpleasant truth. Still he understand Ange might wish for all those things because likely a side of him had wished for them as well. Ergo if Toya can come to an agreement with himself as in: okay, someone I loved killed someone else I loved but now they're death and telling the truth would only hurt more the people involved (Nanjo's and the servants' parents would be informed their relative kept Kinzo's death hidden... I think it's a crime... Ange would know her parents were directly involved in a murder... it's not something good to know) so let keep it for myself he still have some troubles to swallow it and to accept that others would swallow it. For Ange it must be troublesome not to know the truth, likely she wanted to know it but how could he tell her? So there's that whole meta about Battler insisting is more important to remember the good sides of his relatives instead than the drama. It's what he wants to do and what he hopes Ange will do, though likely Ange isn't really present with him. It's just a meta happening in his head, another battle between his wish to let the truth be known and the wish to keep it hidden and possibly forget it, mixed with his guilt and worry for Ange. |
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2011-09-05, 18:09 | Link #24210 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Since we're on the subject of Chiesters, do I remember correctly that there was a joke about them running some version of Windows in EP4 or EP6?
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2011-09-05, 18:17 | Link #24211 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Most of it is metaphor or symbolism so the connections aren't really matematical ones but more fantastic ones like when the magic scenes are used as interpretation for the real murders (Shannon and Beato fighting are supposed to represent the internal conflict of Yasu). Sadly I for first find that psychology isn't a secure key of interpretation. You can connect bunnies and winchesters and computers in other ways. Maybe at the time there was a videogame with murdering bunnies going around with guns. It'll work just the same for the subconscious. I considered that interpretation because Umineko mentions winchesters being around many times, Maria's bunnies are also mentioned as well as her connection with Beatrice and Toya uses a pc so they're all things he was familiar with and could connect to create the Chiesters in his mind (also Battler might have loved girls in bunny suit so the connection with Maria's bunnies was purely coincidental). I don't really think you can sort magic with logic though. You either ignore it because 'well, magic doesn't exist' and make a different claim as Virgilia suggested or use it as a metaphoric representation (another suggestion of Virgilia) but you can't find a real logic explanation for it because well, the Chiesters never existed... -_- (unless we assume someone wore a bunny suit while going around killing people...) |
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2011-09-05, 18:41 | Link #24214 | |||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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The police likely checked the writing with samples from all the Ushiromiya members whose bodies weren't found, not just with Eva. Eva refused to explain what happened so the police might have thought she was covering up for herself or for someone who survived. Since Eva didn't explain what had happened it was possible to think someone else escaped the explosion. If bits of Battler weren't found is possible to assume he was still alive and Eva was covering up for him. Ergo I doubt the police checked only Maria & Eva's handwriting. Assuming the original plan wanted to kill Eva too as stated in the messages the culprit should have been someone else so the police would have to check. Maybe they even checked the people for which they found bits of them in case they wanted to kill anyone but had ended up being killed for unknown reasons. If battler wrote the messages and also on Maria's diary this would mean Battler met Maria in the past. On Rokkenjima. When it's known he didn't go there for 6 years. And told Maria he was Beatrice. I'm not sure it's believable. Otherwise he must have found a way to write in Maria's diary without Maria's knowing, stuffs that were complete lies. Quote:
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Eva did her best to keep Ange isolated from the truth. Ange didn't even know who were the popular singers. But she can get her hands on Rokkenjima mementos of this sort. It's weird. Not impossible but... weird. As for not keeping Battler's stuffs. Theoretically Ange was Battler's heir. Battler didn't live in her home though, so it's possible she didn't have much about him at home or never had the chance to get it. First she was with the Sumadera... who are so not nice people, then she moved with Eva but ended up having a troubled relation with her. Eva needed money and was the legal guardian of Ange. It's possible she sold most of Battler's stuff. Maybe she kept something she though she would give to Ange when she would be older but after their relationship went downhill those stuffs either were tossed away or store and never given to Ange. The only memento Ange seems to have are the hair ornaments. In fact she says it's the only thing she can use as vessel to call back Battler. If there's something else it never get mentioned. I'm not ruling out she can have something else but there are no clues about it. |
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2011-09-05, 18:48 | Link #24215 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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That's why I think Ange is sort of fictional. In Umineko she has 3 different ending: 1) she dies at the end of Ep 4 during the fight with the Sumadera 2) she never reach Rokkenjima though she moved to get there and killed Juuza and the captain of the boat 3) she never tried to go on Rokkenjima, became a writer and later met Toya Also if you pic up ending 1 or 2 there are two versions of her travel 1) she didn't manage to met Hachijo 2) she met Hachijo. It isn't realistically possible that Ange could have at the same time so many realities so they have to be theories about what had happened to the real Ange. However if the truth is unknown no theory can be disproved and they can coexist in a catbox named 'Ange's destiny after Eva's death'. Ange's fate is merely in a different cat box from the one of what had happened to Rokkenjima but it's still a cat box and Toya can try and make theories for it too. |
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2011-09-05, 18:57 | Link #24216 | ||
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Other Battler or Evil Battler is still a pretty loved theory! Now I do wonder if Natsuhi's unability to have a baby was due to Krauss and she actually slept with Rudolf in order to have a baby... then Natsuhi, Asumu and Kirye all went to the same hospital: 1) Asumu had a stillborn 2) Kirye a baby girl 3) Natsuhi a boy Rudolf wanted a boy and wanted to cut things with Kirye so he switched the 3 babies. By 1986 Kirye finds out, think the Ushiromiya covered up what he did and decide to massacre anyone. At the same time Battler loses his grandfather after having lost his grandmother and his mother and is persuaded Rudolf and the Ushiromiya ruined his mother's life and therefore his own and the one of his grandfather and decide to sterminate them. Eva actually didn't do any killing, she was merely caught in Kirye and Battler's race about who can kill the Ushiromiya faster... Okay, this is insane, I'll shut up... *hides* |
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2011-09-05, 19:06 | Link #24218 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
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In fact everything points to what was shown on Ange in 1998 is false, except the end where she becomes a writer.
The part of the story about Ange is yet another meta-narrative that was not in any of the books published by Touya / Ikuko. It is a resource used by R07 to give tips. Only with the stories released by Touya / Ikuko can not determine what actually happened. We need these meta-narratives. |
2011-09-05, 19:24 | Link #24219 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-09-05, 20:01 | Link #24220 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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So here's a couple questions about the provenance of the bottles. I've gone over some of them in the past, but since there's a new crop of (alleged) thinkers.
If you think the message bottles were written before the incident:
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