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Old 2016-08-15, 19:13   Link #61
Jaden
Witch of Betrayal
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Yea, I've given up for now, need a new clue. Let's see how many of these you can repeat:

"Krauss is dead."
"Krauss was poisoned."
"Krauss was drugged."
"Krauss' death was accidental."

"Gohda is alive."
"Gohda is a servant of the Ushiromiya family."
"Servants are not culprits."

"Jessica is alive."
"Jessica is alone on the boat."
"Jessica isn't carrying any gold."
"There is no gold on the boat."

Not pulling punches anymore. I'll find out what you are hiding.
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Old 2016-08-16, 00:16   Link #62
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"Krauss is dead."
"Krauss was not drugged or attacked by a weapon,and his death wasnt accidental"

"Gohda is alive."
"Gohda is a servant of the Ushiromiya family."
"Servants are not culprits."

"Jessica is alive."
"Jessica is alone on the boat.
There is gold on the boat"

Last edited by FFTHEWINNER; 2016-08-16 at 11:09.
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Old 2016-08-16, 02:22   Link #63
AuraTwilight
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"Jessica touched the knives used to kill people."
"Kinzo touched the knives used to kill people."

"Krauss was choked."
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Old 2016-08-16, 11:08   Link #64
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-shannon met beato pre-gathering in episode 2,yet her POV in episode 1 tells us that she isnt sure if beato exists or not. interesting. yet another proof that even pre-gathering events differ from episode to episode.

-Endless Eva actually said"i will teach you that i am neither ushirmya eva nor a human". so,here from her own mouth she admits that she isnt human,so her own mouth and claim proves that she admits in red that she didnt kill Nanjo.lol.


Note to Jaden:to clarify the last red,i think that red-ing how krauss died is a bit much,so i told you how he didnt die and,by discarding the ones i mentioned,you can conclude how he did die


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
"Jessica touched the knives used to kill people."
"Kinzo touched the knives used to kill people."

"Krauss was choked."
Jessica touched one or more of the knives used to kill people.
Kinzo didnt touch the knives used to kill people lately,though he has touched them in the past.
Krauss was not choked.


also guys,if at any point you feel close to giving up and need a hint to reinvigorate your fighting spirit just mention it and i will gladly provide it

Last edited by FFTHEWINNER; 2016-08-16 at 11:38.
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Old 2016-08-16, 16:14   Link #65
Jaden
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Then, how about this kind of story?

Spoiler for 1:


Or if that's no good, how about...

Spoiler for 2:
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Old 2016-08-16, 18:21   Link #66
FFTHEWINNER
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Then, how about this kind of story?

Spoiler for 1:


Or if that's no good, how about...

Spoiler for 2:
Considering that one of the 3 questions i posed is why he is laughing,you can guess that yes,he is laughing for a reason that he finds funny

False. Here is some red truth:

kinzo is a genius(like i mentioned in my ''bases''talk before

Gohda doesnt work for Kinzo,and doesnt even get the honor of meeting him(which was made clear in the VN. Someone else does though. Wonder who is that one

While possibility of collaboration between some people exists,the 7 people never collaborated together on anything

Kinzo didnt attack anyone

The hidden mansion has nothing to do with this puzzle and krauss's boat works and is in the main harbor with the keys closeby and easily obtainable

No typhoon exists and the weather is good


And lastly
Krauss didnt drink or eat any poison

I liked this try though,so i am looking forward to your next theory! Hope aura tells us a little about what his current thoughts are too,as,even if a coheisive theory hasnt been reached yet,thoughts and analyses are very interesting

Last edited by FFTHEWINNER; 2016-08-17 at 08:01.
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Old 2016-08-17, 09:03   Link #67
Jaden
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Thanks. I think I'm starting to get it now...there is one obvious culprit I have yet to accuse. With so little to go on initially, the process of solving this one has to be more iterative than in your average forgery. If solving Umineko is like finishing a jigsaw puzzle that already has a few pieces assembled, this is like painting a picture based on vague instructions, while the patron watches over my shoulder, sporadically throwing red paint over my lines and forcing me to change the composition.

Can you repeat these to clarify the setting?

"Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Battler, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Kanon are not relevant to the story, but they are still present on the island."

"The story takes place in 1986 on Rokkenjima during the two days of the family conference."

"There are no dusty rooms in the mansion or the guesthouse", after all, those servants aren't employed just to loiter around.
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Old 2016-08-17, 09:28   Link #68
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-why didnt kinzo invite non-family members to this gathering?he says he wants to do a random roulette of death and make his chances of losing low by having many potential numbers(sacrifices). in that case why not have 20 or 30 people more?considering how rich and infamous he is,it would be pretty easy for him to get many people.
the only explanation i can comeup with is that the ushiromya blood is special somehow. we know that some ushiromyas(Kinzo,Battler)are strongly resistant to magic while some(Maria,Kinzo)are quite good at magic.Beatrice also praised battler and george many times by saying"as expected from kinzo's grandchild". so i think that blood is powerful magically,and kinzo wanted to have a ceremony with the biggest number of people who have that blood and the lowest possible number of other people(he knows that they wont accept to come without their wife/husband). the servants are furniture and kumasawa has virgilia inside her,so those dont count,and krauss trusts gohda the most(as mentioned in episode 1's tips)so he wont accept to make him leave even if ordered by kinzo.

-the death's roulette,as kinzo said,is random,yet atleast some of the kills are clearly premediated. one might wonder how can both things be true.
the answer is simple. the"randomness"of the roulette is that many of the attendees have reasons and motives to kill,but only one or two exceute these reasons and decide to kill,and who those one or two are makes their "hit list"different than the"hit list"of other people. that is how the roulette is random,because no one,including kinzo,knows who will decide to be"the one",and thus who will die

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Thanks. I think I'm starting to get it now...there is one obvious culprit I have yet to accuse. Can you repeat these to clarify the setting?

"Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Battler, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Kanon are not relevant to the story, but they are still present on the island."

"The story takes place in 1986 on Rokkenjima during the two days of the family conference."

"There are no dusty rooms in the mansion or the guesthouse", after all, those servants aren't employed just to loiter around.
"Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Battler, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Kanon are not relevant to the story.they are still present on the island,but they dont affect the story in any way."

"The story takes place in 1986 on Rokkenjima during the two days of the family conference."

"There are dusty rooms in the mansion or the guesthouse,such as the boiler room ,the secret room where krauss keeps his gold ingot,and other secret rooms that some people may know about"


if what i think about what you think is correct,let me remind you of this old red
"Servants are not culprits."

Edit:i liked your comparison lol. do you think i made it too difficult?i made it this way because the one that inspired me to write this had a very obvious answer but the questions and goals were undefined. i didnt like that,so i thought having defined questions/goals and not so clear answers would be better. however,i do admit that these are usually played with far more than two participants,which means far more theories and red which makes the game easier. that part is outside my powers though lol.
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Old 2016-08-17, 11:50   Link #69
Jaden
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Well, the problem is that when I've read this much of Umineko and the creations of its fans, I can't even trust the red text anymore. Actually, it usually contains more bullshit than truth.

The corpses belonging to the victims are in this room.
But, The corpses of the victims are not in this room.. Even that is not necessarily a contradiction.

So the way my mind reads your red text is like: "Gohda is a servant...except when he's not, hahaha!" That being said, I don't plan to pin the murders on Gohda, so don't worry.
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Old 2016-08-17, 12:36   Link #70
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Quote:
-shannon met beato pre-gathering in episode 2,yet her POV in episode 1 tells us that she isnt sure if beato exists or not. interesting. yet another proof that even pre-gathering events differ from episode to episode.
Or she's being cagey so as not to divulge her involvement with her, or she's not sure if her dealings with her were a hallucination or not in hindsight.

Quote:
-Endless Eva actually said"i will teach you that i am neither ushirmya eva nor a human". so,here from her own mouth she admits that she isnt human,so her own mouth and claim proves that she admits in red that she didnt kill Nanjo.lol.
Not really, that's just a complication in English that doesn't exist in Japanese.

Quote:
-why didnt kinzo invite non-family members to this gathering?he says he wants to do a random roulette of death and make his chances of losing low by having many potential numbers(sacrifices). in that case why not have 20 or 30 people more?considering how rich and infamous he is,it would be pretty easy for him to get many people.
the only explanation i can comeup with is that the ushiromya blood is special somehow. we know that some ushiromyas(Kinzo,Battler)are strongly resistant to magic while some(Maria,Kinzo)are quite good at magic.Beatrice also praised battler and george many times by saying"as expected from kinzo's grandchild". so i think that blood is powerful magically,and kinzo wanted to have a ceremony with the biggest number of people who have that blood and the lowest possible number of other people(he knows that they wont accept to come without their wife/husband). the servants are furniture and kumasawa has virgilia inside her,so those dont count,and krauss trusts gohda the most(as mentioned in episode 1's tips)so he wont accept to make him leave even if ordered by kinzo.
You also forget that Kinzo hates his family.

As for the riddle.

Theory: "Everyone in the gold room found it. Whether they worked together or not is immaterial, we've already seen that multiple people can find it independently in Episode Three. Krauss, acting on Kinzo's orders perhaps, or wanting to impress him or secure the headship, killed everyone there to have the gold to himself. Krauss has a heart attack as a result of what he did and dies. Kinzo finds this totally hilarious. Jessica was sent away on a boat beforehand by Krauss so she didn't have to know what he was doing."
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Old 2016-08-17, 12:39   Link #71
FFTHEWINNER
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Well, the problem is that when I've read this much of Umineko and the creations of its fans, I can't even trust the red text anymore. Actually, it usually contains more bullshit than truth.

The corpses belonging to the victims are in this room.
But, The corpses of the victims are not in this room.. Even that is not necessarily a contradiction.

So the way my mind reads your red text is like: "Gohda is a servant...except when he's not, hahaha!" That being said, I don't plan to pin the murders on Gohda, so don't worry.
you are talking about word play. well,no word play to this degree exists here.what you see means what it said .ofcourse,there are a few tricks,maybe a few things left intentionally not said in red or said in a way that makes your mind jump to the wrong conclusion,but nothing red-changing,so dont worry

i dont see how your example isnt a contradiction though,as no one can"own"a corpse,so"belonging to x"should equal"x's".

and i actually didnt think you were going to blame gohda at all.

Edit:Aura replied while i was replying.

Quote:
Or she's being cagey so as not to divulge her involvement with her, or she's not sure if her dealings with her were a hallucination or not in hindsight.
though she is still uncertain when it is her POV,and she wont be"cagey" then. and considering that she still has the brooch as physical proof of the meeting,she cant imagine it was a hallucination.

Quote:
Not really, that's just a complication in English that doesn't exist in Japanese.
...i dont get. she clearly stated that she will teach battler that she isnt a human(ningen)then she said that no factors other than humans(again ningen)were involved. how is the contradiction not in japanese?

Quote:
You also forget that Kinzo hates his family.
i meant in addition to the family he could have a ton more people and make his chances higher
though,since his magic is based on risk,maybe having too many people wouldnt allow him to execute his magic.

Quote:
As for the riddle.

Theory: "Everyone in the gold room found it. Whether they worked together or not is immaterial, we've already seen that multiple people can find it independently in Episode Three. Krauss, acting on Kinzo's orders perhaps, or wanting to impress him or secure the headship, killed everyone there to have the gold to himself. Krauss has a heart attack as a result of what he did and dies. Kinzo finds this totally hilarious. Jessica was sent away on a boat beforehand by Krauss so she didn't have to know what he was doing."
Jessica has gold ignots in the boat
krauss didnt have a heart attack
also,your theory doesnt explain rudolf and the different ways the 4 died.

Last edited by FFTHEWINNER; 2016-08-17 at 12:51.
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Old 2016-08-17, 12:49   Link #72
Jaden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER View Post
I dont see how your example isnt a contradiction though,as no one can"own"a corpse,so"belonging to x"should equal"x's".
No one can own a corpse? Are you sure about that? Well, even if that was the case, I'd weasel out with something like:

The reds were stated at different times, and the situation changed between those times. Alternatively, when I said "this room" I was thinking of one room during the first red, and another during the second.

Yeah, it's a nice way to give the players some hints, but that's just in the beginning. When the witch is starting to get cornered, they can easily turn the red text into an instrument of mind-fuckery.
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Old 2016-08-17, 12:58   Link #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
No one can own a corpse? Are you sure about that? Well, even if that was the case, I'd weasel out with something like:

The reds were stated at different times, and the situation changed between those times. Alternatively, when I said "this room" I was thinking of one room during the first red, and another during the second.

Yeah, it's a nice way to give the players some hints, but that's just in the beginning. When the witch is starting to get cornered, they can easily turn the red text into an instrument of mind-fuckery.
...come on lol. that is just cheap . i would rage hard if "explanations"like those were in umineko . that is just stooping too low,as how the f*** would anyone know what room i was thinking of when i wrote that lol.

also,i edited my post above you with new info
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Old 2016-08-17, 13:01   Link #74
Jaden
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I'm relieved that you wouldn't do such a thing. But such things are certainly allowed in this game. I suppose it all depends how badly the witch wants to win.
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Old 2016-08-17, 13:06   Link #75
FFTHEWINNER
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I'm relieved that you wouldn't do such a thing. But such things are certainly allowed in this game. I suppose it all depends how badly the witch wants to win.
and considering the witch FFTHEWINNER is more concerned with having a fun and entertaining game with lots of interesting theories than with winning,and he believes that the mystery he made is good enough of a mindf*** on its own,he wont stoop this low

however,i definitely do have some tricks of my own,so dont take everything for granted either
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Old 2016-08-18, 07:47   Link #76
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-battler's birthday is the same day the famicom(and sega sg-1000)launched 3 years prior XD. guess that is why his father performed the konami code on him in episode1
maybe that konami code was the source of the whole mystery,since it unlocked the hidden characters"meta battler"and"beatrice",and gave battler infinite continues which led to the looped time lines so it can never be gameover for him
i can imagine battler getting a famicom on his birthday as a very fitting gift

-if i rank the episodes so far i would honestly say that we have been on a downward trend in quality,as i think EP1>EP2>>EP3.
episode one was quite intriguing in everyway,and it also had many touches of horror/Mindf***/WTF moments(like maria singing through the phone next to 3 dead bodies).Natsuhi being awesome was a huge bonus too . only thing i can fault it for is the tea party,which seemed like too much "developer track/VAs having fun"for me to take it seriously.
episode 2 introduced many intriguing concepts(red text,dimension surfing,etc)and some interesting deaths and imagery,but didnt feel as strong as episode 1,and rosa was incredibly annoying.
episode 3,IMO,and this is where i differ with probably every other umineko fan lol,had an EXTREMELY obvious plot twist that the whole episode was building towards with the vast majority of its scenes. i legit dont get how the vast majority of people(according to discussions)completely fell for it(i hope this doesnt come out as me bragging and touting my own horn. i am just saying that i didnt expect that many to bite that hook,especially after virgilia literally revealed the plan to everyone reading). as a result,if you figured it out early like i did,most of the episode,while amusing,becomes not that interesting. add to that that this episode focused on the unbearable eva and endless eva and you can see why i rate this episode as far far lower than the first two. tbh the only good stuff that came from this episode for me is ronove,virgilia,moe beato faces and breast CG,and ange.and the latter wasnt even in the episode until the last 5 minutes so she barely counts.
ofcourse,i hope episode 4 is far better(it better be considering how i heard that it is quite long lol),and i recignize that,had i fallen for ep3's trap,i probably would have enjoyed it far more. still,those are my thoughts about the episodes so far.

-rosa is rose. rose disappears. it should be beautiful and nice and there but it isnt. some for rosa. she should be a good mom and love maria and br there for her but isnt. interesting link.

also guys,i am traveling to egypt the day after tommorow,where i will stay for a couple of days then go to the us,so i might not be able to post as frequently in egypt until i reach the us :/. on the plus side,i will start eppisode 4 there and play a ton



and now for the delayed responses:

"They're dead of old age."

i wasnt talking about the elders specifically. i was talking about their decendants. remember that kinzo's family was ONE of the branch families,which means there were more branch families that werent affected by the disaster,and surely there were remnants of the original main family too. what happened to all of those??!!like i said,they shouldnt they be represented to a degree in the "ushirmya family gathering",even if by sending one member for each family branch,as they are still ushiromya after all.in addition to the gathering,as kinzo is now the head of the family,wouldnt they too go to him at various times for help in various things/borrow some money/discuss their recent investments/etc? the more i think about it the more it seems to me like a huge plothole tbh,unless it is addressed somewhere later on.

"And yet...isn't being so aggressive and creepy what tipped Battler off enough that he didn't give in?"

i want to say you have a point,but here is the problem: they didnt yet know who ange is and weather or not she has magical capabelities. even if they knew she came to help battler,dont forget that battler himself is powerless magically,so there was a high chance that she too wouldnt know magic,in which case the goat would have made battler sign his soul away.

"More clues are incoming. :3"

waiting for them

"And yet that leaves the problem of the windows not being locked behind him."

in the first twilight it wouldnt matter if the windows werent closed because all the adults were in the hallroom and the children were asleep.
in the second and 4-6th twilight eva closed it
7-8th twilight he came down normally and helped eva
for george,after he closed the window for him,he went downstairs and left because the 7-8th twilight were already done.eva didnt notice him.

"Because she lived."

only way i can see for her to live is for bernkastel to open up a portal directly where she would fall and transport her somewhere else,becase you dont"survive"falling off a skyscraper lol.

"I guess if you want to be pedantic, the ???? Tea Party is between Eva and Ange, who both have the right to call themselves witches."

had to google pedantic lol. and i guess that somewhat make sense to a degree.

"Ah right, got my wires crossed with the book that scene is referencing.

Here's the thing though, is that Hideyoshi is never really in that room before Eva is, since that room was improvised for her sickness after everyone transferred to the guesthouse. Remember, the adults spent the night in the mansion."

...what book?i dont remember any book.

not really. we know from episode 1 that the guest house had specified rooms for each adult family and that they were told which room belongs to who,so even though they spent the night in the mansion he could have easily smoked it before the mansion meeting/during a bathroom break he took during the meeting/after the meeting while eva was holding a gun with the adults for a while. there are a ton of possible times he could have smoked it in,so there is no reason to assume he smoked it recently.

"Here's a scenario for you. For whatever reason, Eva and Battler are both alive, neither are the culprit, but they don't know who the third person is, so they blame each other.

Eva concludes that if she's not the culprit, Battler has to be. Battler has to be the one who killed her husband and son. All her anger takes control, she's insane with hatred and grief. Battler accuses her of being the culprit.


Really? She thinks, he's gonna play innocent now? She laughs in his face, and just goes "Yea, sure, whatever, I did it. I'm the culprit, whatever you say."

Then she kills him. She's all alone.

And she doesn't feel any better..."

many things prove that wasnt the case:
--there clearly has to be a strong reason why battler decided to accuse an angry armed woman who could kill him of being the murderer without taking any safety precautions first. look at his facial expression during the scene. he is devastated. this clearly means that he saw clear,and most likely gruesome,evidence that she is the culprit.

--eva didnt say something like"Yea, sure, whatever, I did it. I'm the culprit."or even"yep i am the culprit". she was mocking battler by saying"took you this long to figure it out,huh?". the nature of the phrase its self makes it impossible for it to hold any other meaning.

"The Beatrice who reflected bullets with a badass always does so when she's at full power. Eva-Beatrice hadn't yet completed the Epitaph and thus wasn't fully 'born' as the new Endless Witch, and Beato gave her magic away in EP3 and so was little better than a ghost."

within the boundaries of the fakeness of that scene,this explanation makes perfect sense

"They're like a Venn diagram."

but a venn diagram would mean that piece battler would also know some of the info that meta knows,which certainly doesnt seem to be the case.

"When you're occupying the space between infinite universes, where everything that COULD exist pretty much already does, and thought becomes reality as soon as you think of it?

...Pretty much.

Though bear in mind that Beato's magic, and it's ability to create, is discussed in EP4."

then we will continue this discussion after i learn episode 4's info

"Well, if you want to be pedantic, we can't prove that. Maybe no one exists but Battler and he's going crazy (but that's dumb).

Maybe imagining a sentient being causes it to exist, like creating an A.I."

but an AI doesnt"think". it doesnt have free will. it simply follows the code that is programmed in it. only ones i can say are similar are the goats. all the rest clearly have free will.
anyway,let us wait umtil this stuff is elaborated on a bit in-game then we can return to it

"It would if I ever finished it. Stuff in my real life happened and it never got beyond the first chapter, so don't bother. I just keep it there so it's not forever forgotten. If it were completed, though, it would spoil the whole novel."

oh. i see. hope you restart it soon as i would love to read it after i finish umineko

also,moar theories and recites guys! i am hungry!

Last edited by FFTHEWINNER; 2016-08-18 at 08:18.
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Old 2016-08-18, 09:32   Link #77
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
though she is still uncertain when it is her POV,and she wont be"cagey" then. and considering that she still has the brooch as physical proof of the meeting,she cant imagine it was a hallucination.
No she doesn't, she gave it to Kanon, who stomped on it and broke it into two of Beato's butterflies.

Quote:
...i dont get. she clearly stated that she will teach battler that she isnt a human(ningen)then she said that no factors other than humans(again ningen)were involved. how is the contradiction not in japanese?
The translation uses "human" and "person" fairly interchangeably, if I recall.

Quote:
i wasnt talking about the elders specifically. i was talking about their decendants. remember that kinzo's family was ONE of the branch families,which means there were more branch families that werent affected by the disaster,and surely there were remnants of the original main family too. what happened to all of those??!!like i said,they shouldnt they be represented to a degree in the "ushirmya family gathering",even if by sending one member for each family branch,as they are still ushiromya after all.in addition to the gathering,as kinzo is now the head of the family,wouldnt they too go to him at various times for help in various things/borrow some money/discuss their recent investments/etc? the more i think about it the more it seems to me like a huge plothole tbh,unless it is addressed somewhere later on.
They died in that Earthquake disaster, that's pretty much why they made Kinzo the head.

Quote:
i want to say you have a point,but here is the problem: they didnt yet know who ange is and weather or not she has magical capabelities. even if they knew she came to help battler,dont forget that battler himself is powerless magically,so there was a high chance that she too wouldnt know magic,in which case the goat would have made battler sign his soul away.
Battler has Endless Nine. If he fully committed to resisting, he could have.

Quote:
...what book?i dont remember any book.
The cigarette butt trick is lifted from an Agatha Cristie novel.

Quote:
many things prove that wasnt the case:
--there clearly has to be a strong reason why battler decided to accuse an angry armed woman who could kill him of being the murderer without taking any safety precautions first. look at his facial expression during the scene. he is devastated. this clearly means that he saw clear,and most likely gruesome,evidence that she is the culprit.
He accused Eva for the same reason she accused him. There was no one else. Wolf and Sheep Puzzle.

Quote:
--eva didnt say something like"Yea, sure, whatever, I did it. I'm the culprit."or even"yep i am the culprit". she was mocking battler by saying"took you this long to figure it out,huh?". the nature of the phrase its self makes it impossible for it to hold any other meaning.
Eva's sarcasm strikes again. It won't be the last time she does something like this.

Quote:
but a venn diagram would mean that piece battler would also know some of the info that meta knows,which certainly doesnt seem to be the case.
Well, technically that's true, since Meta-Battler has Piece-Battler's human memories. :P

[quote]but an AI doesnt"think". it doesnt have free will. it simply follows the code that is programmed in it. only ones i can say are similar are the goats. all the rest clearly have free will.
anyway,let us wait umtil this stuff is elaborated on a bit in-game then we can return to it[quote]

I was using AI in the Sci-Fi sense of a truly intelligent computer as an allegory.
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Old 2016-08-19, 09:55   Link #78
FFTHEWINNER
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first,i compiled a list of all the red i said so far and all i refused to repeat,for easier access for you guys when you prepare your next recital requests and theories

Red:
Rudolf's body wasnt moved

All the piercings were made with knifes or similar bladed objects

Krauss doesnt appear to have any injuries of any kind,and wasnt attacked by any blunt weapons

No one was taken hostage

a"Two attack each other and kill each other"situation never happened

if all the aforementioned gold were sold,it would be worth tens of millions of dollars

"Krauss is dead."

"Krauss was not drugged or attacked by a weapon,and his death wasnt accidental"

krauss didnt have a heart attack

"Gohda is alive."

"Gohda is a servant of the Ushiromiya family."

"Servants are not culprits."

no word play to this high degree exists here.what you see means what it said

"Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Battler, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Kanon are not relevant to the story.they are still present on the island,but they dont affect the story in any way."

"The story takes place in 1986 on Rokkenjima during the two days of the family conference."

"There are dusty rooms in the mansion or the guesthouse,such as the boiler room ,the secret room where krauss keeps his gold ingot,and other secret rooms that some people may know about"

"Jessica is alive."

"Jessica is alone on the boat.

There is gold on the boat"

Jessica touched one or more of the knives used to kill people.

Kinzo didnt touch the knives used to kill people lately,though he has touched them in the past.

Krauss was not choked.

kinzo is a genius(like i mentioned in my ''bases''talk before

Gohda doesnt work for Kinzo,and doesnt even get the honor of meeting him(which was made clear in the VN. Someone else does though. Wonder who is that one

While possibility of collaboration between some people exists,the 7 people never collaborated together on anything

Kinzo didnt attack anyone

The hidden mansion has nothing to do with this puzzle and krauss's boat works and is in the main harbor with the keys closeby and easily obtainable

No typhoon exists and the weather is good

Krauss didnt drink or eat any poison

Refuse:

"The gold is real."

"Rosa, Maria, Eva, Krauss, and George are truly dead, with none of them faking. Moreover, none of them killed each other, or committed suicide.

Gohda killed Rudolf

Kinzo and Jessica are not murderers"

"Krauss was murdered by another person"

"Krauss was the first one to die during this incident"

"There is only one killer."

"Rudolf, Rosa, Maria, Eva, Krauss, and George were killed by the same knife, or any knives or blades were all used by the same person."

now for the replies:
Quote:
No she doesn't, she gave it to Kanon, who stomped on it and broke it into two of Beato's butterflies.
oh. true. i forgot that part. guess it is possible then,though she could simply ask kanon. oh well.

Quote:
The translation uses "human" and "person" fairly interchangeably, if I recall.
so?i still dont get your point about what i said not being a contradiction in japanese. please explain.

Quote:
They died in that Earthquake disaster, that's pretty much why they made Kinzo the head.
--the ones who died were the main family. there are other branch families. where are they?
--even within kinzo's own branch of the family,did he not have a brothers/uncles/nephews/etc? those are ushiromyas too. where did they go to?
--how can every single ushiromya from every family branch not named kinzo die in a single earthquake with no descendants. this is simply illogical.

Quote:
Battler has Endless Nine. If he fully committed to resisting, he could have.
i thought that was a part of the BS trick of beato. however,it is mentioned in the tips that he does have huge magical resistance,so that part could be true. i see. guess it is possible tha,while beato did indeed plan and act this crap,that she still did change a little bit in personality when she saw battler's reactions and how he defended her in the end. that might also be why lambda was angry at the end,that beato didnt truly give 100% of her power to winning because how battler reacted impacted her. it is also possible that virgilia knew about battler's magic resistance which is why she acted that way. fair point.

Quote:
The cigarette butt trick is lifted from an Agatha Cristie novel.
interesting. how was it done in the original novel?

Quote:
He accused Eva for the same reason she accused him. There was no one else. Wolf and Sheep Puzzle.
actually,that is impossible. here is why: Battler was with eva watching her when nanjo was killed . so:
--he knows for a fact that she didnt kill nanjo
--he believes that everyone else is dead
--he doesnt know that there isnt more than 18 people on this rokkenjima
considering all 3 together,the obvious and logical thought is that someone else came from the outside has done all the killings. it doesnt make ay sense for him to believe that eva is the killer under these circumstances unless he discovered clearly damning evidence that she is indeed the main killer,such as seeing her kill jessica or finding things with here that she shouldnt have.

Quote:
Eva's sarcasm strikes again. It won't be the last time she does something like this.
...i still dont get how what she said is up to interpretation in anyway,but whatever. we will see i guess.

Quote:
Well, technically that's true, since Meta-Battler has Piece-Battler's human memories. :P
meta might have some of piece's,but piece doesnt have any of meta's,which means that they arent a venn diagram,as a venn diagram means each side gets a little of what the other side has

Quote:
I was using AI in the Sci-Fi sense of a truly intelligent computer as an allegory.
oh. ok. get what you meant more now. still,let us wait until this stuff is elaborated on a bit in-game then we can return to it
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Old 2016-08-19, 11:52   Link #79
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
so?i still dont get your point about what i said not being a contradiction in japanese. please explain.
Especially when involving supernatural beings, are all "persons" also "humans"?

Quote:
--the ones who died were the main family. there are other branch families. where are they?
--even within kinzo's own branch of the family,did he not have a brothers/uncles/nephews/etc? those are ushiromyas too. where did they go to?
--how can every single ushiromya from every family branch not named kinzo die in a single earthquake with no descendants. this is simply illogical.
Kinzo was chosen because there was no one else young enough to produce heirs. He was basically from the most insignificant branch, is the reason for all this. There were other Ushiromiyas but they're all dead of old age.

Quote:
interesting. how was it done in the original novel?
Pretty much exactly as you saw it. Umineko borrows a lot of tricks from classic novels, and Umineko's basic set-up of everyone being killed one by one is taken from Agatha Cristies "Ten Little Indians" or "And Then There Were None."

Quote:
actually,that is impossible. here is why: Battler was with eva watching her when nanjo was killed . so:
--he knows for a fact that she didnt kill nanjo
--he believes that everyone else is dead
--he doesnt know that there isnt more than 18 people on this rokkenjima
considering all 3 together,the obvious and logical thought is that someone else came from the outside has done all the killings. it doesnt make ay sense for him to believe that eva is the killer under these circumstances unless he discovered clearly damning evidence that she is indeed the main killer,such as seeing her kill jessica or finding things with here that she shouldnt have.
This is the same Battler who whips out "Trap X", to be fair.

Quote:
meta might have some of piece's,but piece doesnt have any of meta's,which means that they arent a venn diagram,as a venn diagram means each side gets a little of what the other side has
I already posited that Battler's thoughts and feelings influence the actions of his counterpart.

Quote:
...i still dont get how what she said is up to interpretation in anyway,but whatever. we will see i guess.
I'm proposing that she played it up and mocked him because she was just that insulted by her imagined culprit acting innocent in the face of her gun barrel.
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Old 2016-08-28, 13:48   Link #80
chaos_alfa
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FFTHEWINNER when are you planning to start Episode 4?
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