Fate/Zero - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[Ithekro]

Originally Posted by Thess

Half then. There you go. Just adapt the conversations with Shirley, the hunger and the mess afterwards (what was actually written hint). Oh and completely eliminate Heart of Freaks. Waste of time. Have them do an OVA of it since it wasn't part of F/Z anyway.



With this episode? He had more focus on the anime so far than he did in the novels.

The "Mongrels" need their screentime too.

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by Thess

Half then. There you go. Just adapt the conversations with Shirley, the hunger and the mess afterwards (what was actually written hint). Oh and completely eliminate Heart of Freaks. Waste of time. Have them do an OVA of it since it wasn't part of F/Z anyway.

Why? In the novel, Kiritsugu received development from Volume 1 via use of an omnipotent narrative. Some solid development of his character was long overdue, in the anime, especially since a good portion of the information communicated through the novel, in reference to the Kiritsugu flashback, was also done so through the narration. Ufotable decided to show it, while actually developing the characters on the island.

[mAc Chaos]

Yeah, for all most people know, Kotomine and Kiritsugu are just side characters in the anime when in the novel they're front and center the entire way through because of the narration.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

Why? In the novel, Kiritsugu received development from Volume 1 via use of an omnipotent narrative. Some solid development of his character was long overdue, in the anime, especially since the a good portion of the information communicated through the novel, in reference to the Kiritsugu flashback, was also done so through the narration. Ufotable decided to show it, while actually developing the characters on the island.

Everyone gets development this way, though. They show more of his scenes with Illya in the Boxset. Nothing of Kiritsugu was missed (and some of his scenes only describe his arsenal rather than his mindset...).

Developing irrelevant characters in a flashback =/= good pacing.

[Archer]

Originally Posted by Thess

Eh, which could have been explained without stretching it and without continuing another irrelevant episode next week? Yes. Irrelevant. Because Hearts of Freaks isn't part of F/Z which is, oh geez, maybe about the Fourth Heaven's Feel?

Nasu says what F/Z is really about in the talks:

“Speaking of, what is the fourth war about?”

“Hum – Saber getting bullied by Gilgamesh and Alexander!”

The reason why I say to take this discussion to the light novel spoiler thread is because you can't really explain why this is unimportant without information that anime-only people have.

Also, despite what you want to believe, this story is Kiritsugu's, first and foremost. The novel explicitly states this in the opening narration, and the animation staff is also on record to state that as well. Gilgamesh and Alexander might be of interest to you, but they're not the main character that the story is about.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Archer

Also, despite what you want to believe, this story is Kiritsugu's, first and foremost. The novel explicitly states this in the opening narration, and the animation staff is also on record to state that as well. Gilgamesh and Alexander might be of interest to you, but they're not the main character that the story is about.

Did you read Nasu's postface in the first novel? It's about the three Kings' conflict and how affects Saber. And is about Kiritsugu. It's not just Kiritsugu's story.

It's also about Saber's and how she relates to her reign. She's not just promoted in all the covers because of her popularity (and the lack of his). The opening makes reference to Kiritsugu because he's the one that shows up in the first prologue.

I don't think this is a spoiler considering the whole thing with the kings began as soon as episode 5 of the first season.

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by Thess

Everyone gets development this way, though. They show more of his scenes with Illya in the Boxset. Nothing of Kiritsugu was missed.

Kiritsugu's development got the shaft in Part I, which has been a consistent complaint among novel readers. As for the BD, they showed one scene with Ilya on the boxset, and left his opinion of Iri largely blank.

Developing irrelevant characters in a flashback =/= good pacing.

Shirley and Noritaka are far from irrelavant, as their deaths are what caused him to become the cynical, broken man he became, in comparison to the happy little boy, crushing on his childhood friend.

[Ithekro]

Mind you that when you make a series like this with stuff only in the Boxset, you can't assume everyone watched it. Thus you would still have to make scenes for backstory for those that didn't see those scenes...because if the main character is not developed somehow...that the plot will have no meaning for the viewer.

The only story I've seen were the narration and internal dialogue was used in telling the story was the original Dune. And I know several people that really want to kill Paul Atradies for his constant talking to himself for the entire feature film.

[mAc Chaos]

Originally Posted by Thess

It's also about Saber's and how she relates to her reign. She's not just promoted in all the covers because of her popularity (and the lack of his). The opening makes reference to Kiritsugu because he's the one that shows up in the first prologue.

Saber is getting that covered in various scenes already though.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

Kiritsugu's development got the shaft in Part I, which has been a consistent complaint among novel readers. As for the BD, they showed one scene with Ilya on the boxset, and left his opinion of Iri largely blank.

He had a CD drama to flesh out the relationship with Iri, didn't he? He's not the only one who had has his scenes cut. Look at Alexander's flashback or the lackthereof. Where is Gilgamesh's? Where were Kariya (although I think he's getting his own CD drama to compensate) or Tokiomi's or Kirei's? Or Saber's thoughts about how she wanted the support of her people as Alexander had?

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

Shirley and Noritaka are far from irrelavant, as their deaths are what caused him to become the cynical, broken man he became, in comparison to the happy little boy, crushing on his childhood friend.

Largely unimportant aside of plot devices to push him. Same as Kotomine's father and wife. Wait, Risei was actually a character with some importance in FZ (calling out the bounty hunt on Caster).

I mean those little boys he played with and that priest mostly which, as far as I remember, weren't even featured in the chapter.

[Jaden]

I really liked the episode, very powerful. In the novels I felt Kiritsugu's flashbacks were kinda vague. While they explained his character I didn't think the writing was memorable. In fact, I don't even remember what happens next, lol.

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by Thess

He had a CD drama to flesh out the relationship with Iri, didn't he?

The Drama CDs aren’t part of the anime, so I’d never expect someone to form their opinion of Kiritsugu, based upon the assumption that they had listened to them. I certainly don’t expect most watchers or reviewers to have listened to them, or to factor the character development found within them into the anime’s score. You might as well expect the viewers to read the novel.

He's not the only one who had has his scenes cut. Look at Alexander's flashback or the lackthereof. Where is Gilgamesh's? Where were Kariya (although I think he's getting his own CD drama to compensate) or Tokiomi's or Kirei's?

The difference is that Kiritsugu is the main character, and Alexander isn’t. Most of his character development is vocal, anyway, and thus wasn’t lost in the novel to anime translation. Ditto with the other characters mentioned.

[ScudFace]

Whatever happened to zombie shirley?? Was she killed off screen or are they saving her for a showdown with kerry when he becomes a emotionless combat machine?
I've got a feeling she was too important to the main character to be killed off-screen

[Humbaba]

I think it is still a great adaption as far as you consider the time they have and things like that. I just think it's a bit too short. The second season especially is a bit too fast paced and misses scenes because it's two episodes shorter than season one was. With a 40 min. first episode (the entire Caster fight) and a further episode that stretches the anime to 13 episodes like season 1 had, we probably wouldn't have any problems. Since it would be 40 minutes longer, some fans wouldn't even see a problem with the two Kiritsugu episodes, meaning the studio could just use these 40 minutes of extra time for those two chapters. I just wished they would have decided to make it as long as the first season again and everything would have fitted (I think).

[Alaya]

Really Thess, you can't say that F/Z is only about Saber getting bullied by Archer and Rider...

The main part of the novel are about

1. Struggle of Kiritsugu and Kotomine
2. Fight between three kings and giving Saber more background.
3. Give more background to F/SN as a prequel.

You are trying to judge the episode while being clouded by the hate of Kiritsugu at the same time. I find this episode fleshing out more of his character and setting up for how a little boy with a bright smile became a magus killer. Overall, it's a good episode.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Question, whatever happened the Shirley?

They didn't show her getting taken out by the Church or the Association, is it possible she is still at large?

[mAc Chaos]

She was biting her own wrists open when Kiritsugu was standing there, so maybe she killed herself...

Although if she did that then nobody else would have become a zombie, I think. So that can't be it.

[Trogdor Jube]

I don't see how this is a bad adaptation considering the original novel was just Kiritsugu and Shirley talking and then skipping immediately to the dawn of the dead. Unless you wanted 24 minutes of describing the scenery which was basically what was going on in the novel.

[DragoZERO]

That was awesome. Dead Apostles in Fate, genius. I am ashamed that I didn't realize they were Dead Apostles.

Learned a lot about "Kerry" in this ep. I am glad they cut out the OP to maximize their time. I was expecting Kerry's dad to kill Shirley, not for her to turn like that... damn that's cruel.

Lastly, this makes me want a Tsukihime anime even more now, lol.

[Forever]

I found this ep surpisingly decent, I thought it might bore me, but it was interesting to watch kerry's development...

It does look like Ufotable did successfully adapt this after all seeing that it met expectations of the majority.