2020-02-08, 08:33
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Link #1642 | ||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Germany
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If I would have to write a Hero and GS story where both have to fight together, I would shift the focus on their qualities instead of pure combat. I like to think of the Batman and Superman crossovers. Batman is in terms of power nowhere near as Superman, but he shines by being the smart one of those two. So Superman is the heavy hitter while Batman is the smart and tricky one. Similar to that I would make GS the tactical advisor and teamleader who has the ideas, analysis and plans, while Hero is the one executing those plans with her powers. It would work in universe since the Hero party has virtue in power but less strategy (I mean their strategy can be summed up with 'they see something and they fight it, that's it'), exspecially the Hero character is rather dimwitted, which GS could compensate. Written like that and it could work. But no nonsense where both fight like equals together, the lore would not allow it and I personally think it is really uninspired when all you can come up with is that two people fight together. This is storytelling for 10 year olds. |
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2020-02-08, 11:10
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Link #1643 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
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GS and Hero will basically cover each in what they lack. In a battle, Hero would be to the taking and deliver hits while GS use tactics and observation that would help her. GS would only use offensive distractions to buy time for Hero since he lacks what she has. If GS has to go full offense, he can only make one big hit use techniques and his tools.
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2020-02-08, 15:52
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Link #1644 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Germany
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Yes, this direction would work. With that you could pull off a crossover that does not feel silly or out of place.
Just don't go super mode on GS where he and Hero destroy everything in an epic tag team battle. GS was never about beeing an overpowered Superman, he draws his strength from being clever like Batman. Turn him into Superman and the story is not Goblin Slayer anymore, but just an additional guy swinging a sword of ultimate power. That is why I don't like Hero in Goblin Slayer, she has everything I despise in storytelling. Even the short interludes with her is something I have to force myself to read. I dislike her that much. |
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2020-02-08, 16:03
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Link #1645 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
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2020-02-09, 17:19
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Link #1646 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Germany
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So what? When someone has a superpower that makes him unstoppable, the oldest trick an author can do is to remove that power. Why else do you think kryptonite in Superman exist?
Exspecially in a fantasy setting, that plays on a giant board on top of that, you can come up with a bunch of stuff that could weaken the Hero. A curse, a substance like poison gas, her magic sword gets stolen, she gets sick and has only half the strength because of that, etc. There are a lot of ways how to weaken the Hero. And if you are that adamant about probability, then make the enemy as strong as the Hero herself. How about an enemy, where the Hero's luck can not exploit or hit the enemy's weakness, because the enemy has no weakness at all? An enemy with a 100% protection that needs to be removed first before the enemy can be defeated, and GS has to find out how to do it, or find an exploit to that protection? If you can not weaken the hero, then make the enemy stronger. The point is, you should not flat out deny any possibility because the lore does not allow it in your eyes. If the rules are in the way, change them carefully or work around them. But saying nothing works because the Hero is too strong is like giving up before you even started. Having said that, I don't really need a collaboration with GS and Hero, since the Hero character is a damn Mary Sue character. |
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2020-02-10, 12:01
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Link #1648 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
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For a book which seems to depict shit-gets-real so well, one wonders why there can be a Hero class without some major revolution - shant the hero be able to beat everyone else into submission and make everyone wears a slave collar or something? Even if the hero doesn't want it, some people would definitely wanna throw her on the throne, since the king ain't do nuthin' for them, right?
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2020-02-10, 16:49
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Link #1649 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Germany
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You debunk yourself already. Hero is NOT Saitama, and therefore that comparison does not work. And you seriously want to compare a girl with a lot of luck to a bald guy who is at the moment literally indestructible and can split the sky with a punch? Why not taking Son Goku and the others from Dragonball? They can blow up planets after all. I dare to guess that you are aware that Dragonball and Goblin Slayer are just not the same, so a comparison is mood to begin with. The same goes with One Punch Man. But I start to see the problem, you and me have a different perception of the Hero. For me she is just really strong, but for some reason you see her as an unstoppable force of destruction (I have no idea why else you bring in Saitama). The question is, do you really think critical luck from Hero is a kind of omnipotent 100% protection that protects her from everything? A kind of force that let's her destroy everything? I do think that you overrate her luck too much. In the novels she a) needs companions to help her out even with her strength and b) there were several lines that stated the Hero is always at a risk to die in one blow when she is not careful, luck or no luck. A far cry from Saitama who takes all destroying energy beams in his face with no problems. I stand with my statement, a crossover or collaboration can work by powering down the Hero or making an enemy stronger as the Hero, because the Hero is not an indestructible baldy. She is an overpowered girl who can still die like everyone else, her luck will not deflect absolutely everything because probability does not work that way, and her luck is just weaponized probability, not a forcefield. If the author wants it, he could certainly do it since it worked already elsewhere. I even have an idea for a villain now that I mentioned probability. I will post my example later though since this post starts to get too long and people don't like my long posts. Last edited by Questman; 2020-02-10 at 17:09. |
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2020-02-10, 17:20
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Link #1650 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
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Because as far as I know Goku can be actually defeated (maybe, I am not clear about DB lore). Saitama cannot, thus Saitama is good comparison because Hero cannot be defeated either. You have to realise that Hero and Goblin Slayer may live in same world but also in completely different genre. For hero not being able do something whole narrative would have to change.
Also Luck is of course not her only merrit, she can also use nuclear explosion spell (let me ask you what could GS do against monster that can survive nuke? Some really deep pitfal?) and is strongest person in the world.
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Last edited by Tenzen12; 2020-02-10 at 17:31. |
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2020-02-10, 17:54
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Link #1651 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Germany
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Why do you set the Hero's invincibility in stone? Not losing yet is not the same as beeing invincible. She just did not loose yet, but never was it stated that she cannot be defeated. One possibility would be an enemy who is a counterpart to Goblin Slayer, let's say a villain who plans everything ahead to the point he nullifies the roll of the dice or luck completely. He takes away Hero's magic sword and they fight in a city so she cannot use nuclear explosion or whatever (considering she did not use it either when mentioned in the novels to spare the mountaintop). Having supermagic does not mean you can use it whenever you want. The villain uses tactics the Hero is powerless against because those tactics nullifie luck and chance so much that her natural luck does not save her in this battle. Give her a super curse that weakens her for a while and her comrades beeing injured or taken hostage and presto, your Hero is powered down against a villain who is her natural enemy. Then GS comes in, because you can fight a smart guy only with a smart guy and since the villain is like an anti version of GS, GS can comprehend easily what the villain is up to, therefore helping Hero to defeat him. There you have the strong Hero and the smart GS working together without GS beeing useless. Before you counter me, keep in mind that GS entire strength is to win against impossible odds by nullifing those odds as much as he can, this is the entire premise of Goblin Slayer after all ('he does not let anyone roll the dice' is a part of the title after all). It is also totally viable to have a villain doing the same what GS does. The way GS takes out invincible enemies like the ogre the same way a villain can trouble the Hero with some plans and tactics. You can say it would still not work on Hero because imba power and stuff, but then you have to deny GS this ability as well, which would contradict you. Allowing GS to defy odds, but at the same denying the villains the same options is a standpoint you could not logically justify. And on a shorter note: Come on, stories are never set in stone. You can almost do everything you want as long as you are careful how to do it. If Superman can die* without upsetting the fans, then Hero can be powered down or face an enemy too strong for her where GS needs to help out. You will be the only one not liking it, the rest does not really care if it is possible or not as long as it is done well (myself included, I am a firm believer of the 'Rule of Cool' philosophy). * let's ignore the fact that of course Superman did not really die, but the fact stays that he got a serious beating in those stories, effectively powering him down in some way Last edited by Questman; 2020-02-10 at 18:07. |
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2020-02-10, 18:29
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Link #1652 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
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OK, I will give it one more try. If you don't catch on this time I will just give up.
-Characters in GS are defined by their role in story. Hero is opposite of Goblin Slayer who exist outside of story, her role is ... being hero (what a twist!), overcome all obstacles and with help of plot armor come out victorious in the end. World itself would make that happen. -When something bad happens she either stumble upon it by luck or is guided to it by premotions. She never fought seriously not even against such as God Slaying giant Hecatoncheir. -She one-shoted Demon general after wipping his whole army first and happen to pick legendary holly sword in process. That happened when she went for some goblin slaying as her very first quest being freshly baked porcelain rank adventurer. On her second adventure she killed Demon Lord. -She is based on Haruhi Suzuya and Ajimu Najimi. You know meta characters and actual reality warping gods.
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Last edited by Tenzen12; 2020-02-10 at 19:03. |
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2020-02-10, 19:52
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Link #1653 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Germany
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You should better give up, because I do not accept your input as arguments. The issue is that I don't interpret those scenes as the Hero 'one shotting' everything, which means she is not the unstoppable force you make her out of it. And I start to doubt that you read the novels carefully. Where do you get the notion that she never fights seriously? That she never breaks a sweat in combat is a wrong portrayal on your side. Case in point, she found the holy sword first, then she defeated the generals and their armies. The interlude says it word for word in the first novel. She was about to get killed until she picked that sword as a last resort. Your portrayal of her killing them first and getting the holy sword on the fly is plain wrong, exspecially when you claim the Hero did all this with ease, that is even more wrong. Hecantonchair was defeated because it was distracted by Goblin Slayer. No, seriously, the Hero even claimed that she had trouble defeating it until it was suddenly distracted by something (Dark Elf fight). How is that not fighting seriously? Your definition of plot armor is wrong. Plot Armor is a concept of not letting important figures die, meaning GS, his party and the people around them have plot armor, too. Makes no sense in your context. And your Hero's role of her having to win all the time does not fit in the table top context. The gods are players who roll dice, but what point is there to roll a die for someone who fulfills the role of 'winning every time'? To put it in an abstract way, there is no plot armor in a tabletop game, else you can not roll dice anymore. Since the gods play dice, the Hero must be a part of the effects as well, where a bad roll can finish off even Hero, luck or no luck, else she would not exist in the first place. I do imagine the gods would prevent an undefeatable character, because thy suck in tabletop games, they are no fun to play. In short, in tabletop games ther are no invincible heroes, and GS is a tabletop game. Oh, and expys to not define the characters. Spearman looks like the fatestay/night guy, but he is not the fatestay/night guy. Looking similar is not enough to say they are the same. GS is not Doomguy, too. Similar, but not the same. So your Haruhi comparison has no value. Jesus, if you don't look it up, you don't even know where most characters are coming from, it is that unimportant where the author got his character ideas. You know what? Let's stop. You trying to bullshit me makes further discussions pointless and I start to get grumpy. I can not talk with someone who tells GS battle scenes in such a wrong context that it could be considered a lie. Do you speed read the novels? Anyway, to conclude: The initial question was if a crossover with Hero and GS is possible without GS beeing useless, and I say yes. I gave ideas, examples and in the novels GS actually helped out Hero more than once, their adventures are often connected, Hero is in a pitch but suddenly her enemies are distracted (volume 3) or cut off from a power source (volume 7). And those examples where not easy wins for Hero, you are talking bullshit because the novel describes word for word how wrong you are. The novels state that GS helped Hero already more than once (and I don't mean the year one novels). That alone debunks your portrayal of Hero winning without breaking a sweat and GS having no use in it, because in the novels the opposite happened, even twice at least. GS.already.helped.Hero.more.than.once! It is a fact, dammit!  I am done, nothing more to say for me. |
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2020-02-11, 13:05
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Link #1654 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Germany
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No, that's not right. In general leadership does not come from the fact that someone is superstrong, it is competence that is asked from a leader. Hero is not a leader, just a powerful sword swinger. Besides, in the novels there are multiple roles that require multiple qualities. Goblin Slayer is not made of two groups, one beeing adventurers and the other being not adventurers. You have the working class, government, merchants, leaders, clerics and so on. And they have different tasks to do which need different qualities. Case in point, the King rules the land and does the economy stuff like taxes, the Hero only fights monsters all day. The Hero would have to do the tax stuff and other government work as a queen, which she likely does not want to do. In short, leadership is hard work and not just a title for the strong guys. While Hero is really strong, nobody would like to have her handle taxes, policies etc., because this is something better not done by amateurs. |
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2020-02-12, 03:55
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Link #1655 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
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Well King did his own share of saving world. Irc he, Sword Maiden and few others defeated Demon lord in past, overthrowing him just because he doesn't fight demon lords anymore (even though he miss it lot btw), would be tad ungrateful.
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2020-02-12, 15:45
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Link #1656 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Germany
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He absolutely did. Actually King is interesting, because the novels show that being a king is more than just shouting orders like some kind of alpha guy. For once a person needs to know how government works and he needs to commit his entire time to it (very important to keep in mind, I will tell why in a moment). If he fails at one of those, the people will probably revolt against him. King has leadership qualities, that is why he could become a king. In volume 8 it is shown what he has to consider and what choices he has to make. In volume 6 Heavy Swordsman tells how a leader has to be smart, or else he will lead his people to disaster. In the Goblin Slayer universe it is established that someone who does not qualifie as a leader will not be a leader for a long time. More important is the fact that being a king is a full time job where you can not pause whenever you want. In several novels King laments the fact that he practically can not leave the castle on his own anymore and often needs a reason to do so. He must be there to give orders all the time. Sword Maiden has the same problem. Everyone with a high status practically ceases to be an adventurer because they have to commit their entire time to it. The loss of freedom is a main reason why a lot of adventures would probably pass off being a king. Hero would have to stop fighting once she is queen (the King certainly had to stop being an adventurer) and she is simply not smart enough for the job. Freedom is not a small issue for an adventurer, remember that the party of GS happily stated that they don't want to be promoted to Gold Level, because they wouild have to go on reserve for the government, therefore losing their freedom. Chances are a lot of Silver adventurers think like that. |
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2020-02-16, 18:36
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Link #1658 |
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時の異邦人
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Emerald City
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The full theme song of Goblin’s Crown. Mili’s “static” is on Youtube for a while already.
Another tidbit, on the danmachi game that features GS GS after learning Bell is a front row attacker. GS: how many times can you use fire bolt? Bell: oh around 70 times before magic runs out. GS: … ————— The insert pictures of #12 is out, and with it some misc info as the 10 short stories are each separate yet connected by a main theme, so there is no major spoiler to talk about. Spoiler for 12:
————
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