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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi? | |||
The 1st | 24 | 5.99% | |
The 2nd | 3 | 0.75% | |
Sarutobi | 117 | 29.18% | |
The 4th | 119 | 29.68% | |
Jiraiya | 27 | 6.73% | |
Orochimaru | 10 | 2.49% | |
Tsunde | 4 | 1.00% | |
Itachi | 73 | 18.20% | |
Other...[Please State Who] | 24 | 5.99% | |
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll |
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2004-08-26, 01:56 | Link #281 | |
日本語を食べません!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco
Age: 41
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(I took this from what I remember of the episode; I had to reference it another time for the same argument) "From (starting) tomorrow" - no doubt about it. There would be a different way to say "Hokage of tomorrow" or "next Hokage". Yes, it is an inconsisteny. Wouldn't be the first time, and I'm pretty sure it won't be the last. Not sure where this point fits into the argument, but I would think that Jiraiya/Tsunade compensate for their loss of muscle by reinforcing them with chakra. It's already fairly commonplace, as we see Sasuke channel chakra into his legs to leap away from Haku's ice needles, crazy jumps, Rock Lee taking hits from Gaara's sand that would kill a regular human being, etc. etc. |
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2004-08-26, 02:21 | Link #282 |
Endless
Join Date: May 2004
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Since we never saw any of the above mentioned nins in their prime we can only go by Kishimoto's words and what we've seen so far. How you interperpt them is your own bizzness. I simpily see that Kishmoto has already dubbed the 4th as the greatest hands down. Not just Anko or 3rd's comments or their ages.
Like MacBrother said he had developed moves that Oro, that justsu feind, never seen. He even went and taught his master (a Sannin BTW) the rasengan, and taught the 3rd (the Hokage) that death god seal. Had he been alive longer the trend would prolly continue. I think that is enuff "proof" to make the 4th the top dog, oh and the comment sprinkled in the series don't hurt his case either. |
2004-08-26, 02:31 | Link #283 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 42
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Wow, I'm surprise to see a close race, especially between the 3rd and the 4th. I voted for the 3rd because its been proven and stated that he was considered the "genius of shinobi/ninja of his time"(I think Oro said that) But we know very little about the 4th, just that he died for the village, invented the rasengen and knows the G.O.D technique, (God of Death) which the 3rd know too. I'm interested in why you guys think the 4th is the strongest. I think some of you who voted didn't put a reason.
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2004-08-26, 12:24 | Link #284 | ||||||||||||||||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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Your argumentation until then was based on the fact that because the regular ninja never stop to grow, so does Yondaime. Whereas my point was to say maybe The 4th would have continued to grow, but it's not the case for the regular ninja. If we let slide that then I can only stick on what I said in my first post : Now did Yondaime would have become stronger (and I mean significantly stronger) than the Sannin and possibly than the God of the Shinobi himself at his best? Maybe, who knows? Quote:
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I'm not new in the concept that widom comes with age : it's just that it's a bullshit. Neither common sense nor good judgment will come just because you're old, old isn't equal to wise. Anyway as you reduced knowledge to jutsu knowledge, you reduce wisdom to battle wise or battle experience and I already say that it was one of the element allowing ninja to continue to improve their skills so what's your point? Quote:
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Indeed Oro hasn't any apparent loss of chakra, he has a young and strong body and the spiritual energy of his old soul. More than that given that the strong thoughts of his host remain inside him (as he said), maybe the spiritual energy of his new body increase his own(?). Quote:
Look at her arm when the jutsu stopped and you will see what means degeneration (actually it must be even worse for Tsunade due to the side effect of her Genesis Rebirth). Quote:
And for the second time, aging is a continual process, you don't start to age at 50. Quote:
You make no sense. Quote:
You must sign a regular summon contract with your blood, with what do you sign a contract with a Shinigami? You can give your soul only one time. Anyway yeah I would like to know more about the genesis of this jutsu ^^ Quote:
Then why doesn't use the live of these guinea pigs who had survived their utility? Without saying that it has more strength to show the corpses of people the reader knew. Quote:
Btw the Anbu captain explained all he knew about the Edo Tensei after that saying that it's a forbidden Kuchiyose etc. Quote:
And like I said Oro is a Ninjutsu specialist so the least touched by his body capacity. Quote:
In the other hand we do know that the 3rd who was 17 years older than them suffered heavily from his age, even with new jutsu and experience. You assume that it's not the case at all at 50, I assume that it's less the case at 50 because they're not that old yet. Quote:
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Time isn't a precise data of what will happen, it's not equal to training, it's not equal to more strength. Especially when you have already the duty of your job to handle, a Hokage can't train all the time like a genin learning the jutsus he will use during his life. Quote:
Besides the professor and the God of the Shinobi are two different titles, I you really want to know I do think it's more likely that the 3rd gain this one when he was older (I have no particular amount of time in mind, just older). |
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2004-08-26, 19:47 | Link #285 | |||||||||||||||||
The mac
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2004-08-26, 20:11 | Link #286 |
Anime/Manga Tensai
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I voted for Yondaime (The 4th) because he's basically most praised ninja in the whole series. I mean those you say that Sandaime is better if you think about it.
In one chapter of the manga when Sandaime was remeniscing about the past and he was looking fondly at the Yondaime's picture, after that Anko came in and told him about Orochimaru and even the old man said it himself that he would probably be no match for Orochi-chan, then Anko said if the 4th was still alive maybe......... after that well it's all good, so this is just one piece of example why the 4th is considered the best Hokage. Also let's not forget that this was the man who was fully able to tame Gamabunta, oh yeah HE ALSO DEFEATED THE KYUUBI!!!!!!! For those people who said that he didn't do much and just put a seal on the fox, well you're all wrong then, let's see when Sandaime tried to do the same thing to Orochi-chan because he's was too weak he wasn't fully able to pull out his soul. So how strong must have Yondaime been to pull out the soul of the one of the strongest Youkais in the world. |
2004-08-26, 20:20 | Link #287 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2004-08-26, 20:43 | Link #288 | |
日本語を食べません!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco
Age: 41
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2004-08-26, 20:56 | Link #289 | |
天使
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: 独逸 (カールスト)
Age: 37
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2004-08-26, 21:49 | Link #290 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
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So in 10 years, the 3rd went from being a 'no question' definite win and killing of Oro, to being severly outclassed? |
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2004-08-26, 22:41 | Link #291 | |
Anime/Manga Tensai
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2004-08-26, 22:45 | Link #292 | |||||||||||||||||||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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And you didn't use the data of the Sannin because there is no data about how their strength changed with age. Quote:
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That just depend of the people, not of their age. Sorry to breack your dream to become automatically wiser while you would grow old. Quote:
Except that yeah we can drop this point. Quote:
And show me a relavent evidence that age doesn't make a relavent difference to chakra and overall strength at 50, please show it. Quote:
The body that Oro chose are young, strong and healthy with surely plenty of physical energy. Besides the chakra producing organs work probably better when they're young. Quote:
Heck, when she isn't using her jutsu she seems in an even worse state than the 3rd at 67~68 with her decrepit and shaking arms. Quote:
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There is nothing about to sign a contract before, from what the 3rd says it seems that the jutsu is the contract, to perform the jutsu is the signature by itself. For the Edo Tensei no idea, I was just saying that we don't know shit about this jutsu except that it requires a sacrifice to hold the soul. Quote:
What are the Shinigami is commom knowledge for japanese people. And again it's the way around, why bother to seek 2 others people whereas you have 2 guys who're not useful anymore within reach? Oro just found an utility for them. Besides you need a sacrifice to hold the soul, you don't merely need a corpse, you need to kill someone. Quote:
No in both anime and manga they're not even surprised to be here and immediately understand the situation. Quote:
For your spell caster point I think raikage answered to it pretty much (still 4 pages ago) and as I said you take an extreme example as a generality. Oh and I didn't see the Sannin having 'incredible movement', neither Oro nor Jiraiya nor Tsunade who pained to catch Kabuto who isn't even particulary good in Taijutsu. Quote:
To say that it wasn't certain that the 4th would have became really particulary stronger is my original point. Quote:
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And still no it's absolutely not proven. Quote:
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First he was the strongest Ninja blahblahblah, then he was known as the professor. |
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2004-08-26, 22:47 | Link #293 | |
Mashou no Tenshi
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2004-08-27, 00:46 | Link #294 | |||||||||||||||||||||
The mac
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Last edited by Macbrother; 2004-08-27 at 01:43. |
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2004-08-27, 01:26 | Link #295 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2004-08-27, 05:19 | Link #296 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
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the order i would rank them would probably be...
1. sarutobi - no doubt, regarded by everyone else as the greatest nin knows all the techniques of leaf and be able to use them flawlessly together as he demonstrated... 2. 4th hokage - powerful enough to stand up to kyuubi...no matter what you say bout the double k.o...just being able to invent a jutsu that can take down the strongest known entity in the naruto world speaks for itself...besides the person must be strong enough to struggle with kyuubi to drag his soul in...just like how sarutobi/orochimaru were going on for hours *maybe that was just the anime draggin out time * 3. jiraiya/itachi -too many unknown factors involved jiraiya - knows some powerful jutsu's and exerts good control of them too...he can summon which i don't think itachi can handle if that occurs...unless itachi has a summon...hes just a bit over his prime as of now..but he proved to be a formidable foe against itachi... itachi - alreadi powerful at his age...but i would guess he can still grow more powerful...also huge plus with sharigan...plus we still have yet to see the last of the 3 jutsu's given by mange sharigan..but he is limited however by his chakra capacity...by that i dont' mean he has very little chakra....i'm sure he has a grip...but compared to the people alreadi listed..he seem to be the rookie on the list..its either that or all the jutsu he uses...as powerful as they are...consumes too much chakra to be very practical in hokage/sannin level duels... so give itachi 10 years and take 10 years from jiraiya? perhaps we'll have a sweet match...besides i don't wanna hear any crap bout "ONE LOOK AND UR GONE!!!...NO CONTEST!!!" crap...if any of the above can't even find a way around a genjutsu and have a match w/o using his eyes...they don't deserve the title of hokage/sannin...i would probably throw orochimaru in there but too lazy to list another...he would probably be 3rd or 4th on the list...hes not as powerful cuz hes too busy trying to collect all the jutsu to concentrate on strong ones... |
2004-08-27, 09:07 | Link #297 | |
Mashou no Tenshi
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2004-08-27, 09:10 | Link #298 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2004-08-27, 15:51 | Link #299 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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And no the Sannin do not make a perfect example of how the geniuses grow with age given that we don't don't how their strength grow since their youth. The fact that they're still strong doesn't mean that they are stronger. Sarutobi was still strong, he wasn't stronger than when he was young. They have new jutsu? Yeah that doesn't prove that it's enough to compensate their young health. You have no evidence of the contrary you just wish for because you like the idea. Quote:
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And genius doesn't mean wisdom at all, actually many genius aren't wise and lack of common sense for the very fact that they're not common. Oro is a genius I wouldn't call him wise. Quote:
And finally do new jutsus will improve strength? Once again just maybe, any jutsu aren't enough to improve consequently the strength of the user or Kakashi would be Kage level since a long time. Quote:
You just said that if there must be a difference then it's noticeable because... that doesn't fit with your point so difference : trace. That's not an exaplanation that's just your wish again and again. Quote:
The immortality jutsu put Oro out the point, the discussion was about the effect of age on Youndame not time alone, you still have no proof nor evidence that Oro learned the Edo Tensei at whetever age. And the Souzou Saisei doesn't make obligatory Tsunade stronger than she was, if her young self was just faster enough than her old untrained self then it doesn't matter, the young version of Tsunade would just beat to a pulp her old self who could only regenerate the awful damage of Tsunade's blows some times before giving up on chakra. Quote:
Btw if it's obviously possible to create chakra imbued with more of one of the two energy, the result is unstable. Quote:
The very fact that her physical strength remains the same than 30 years ago whereas the age and the state of her body out of her jutsu is in a pitiful and even older state that it should be due to her jutsu shows that. Quote:
Oh and it was more like a 20~25 years old Orochimaru, he's not in his old body anymore remember? Quote:
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You merely didn't see that he said signed with the jutsu and thus assumed that you should sign a contract with the Shinigami before -which is still possible btw, but not said. Quote:
A contract with a heaven guard to borrow some souls for the week end for example ^^ Quote:
The shinigami coming to take the soul are utterly common stuff for japanese, they're used to the death (:P) in many mangas, movies, books, etc. You didn't know it, that's all and that's not big a deal. Quote:
Besides there is no indication that they were trained personally by Oro. And in the end there is nothing to discuss about : they were used as sacrifice, so obviously Oro has no use for them anymore. Zaku was armless and Kin wasn't even as useful as Sakura, he used them at their upmost utility : as corpses. Quote:
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The 2nd merely said that it was the Edo Tensei and praised Orochimaru then the 1st just said 'if that's the case, Sarutobi, we must fight you', showing that he got the situation and knew that he should fight Sarutobi given that he was summoned. No surprise at all about the jutsu itself. Quote:
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I agree at 100% with what Raikage said about age btw. Quote:
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And for Tsunade I already answered above why her new jutsu doesn't mean that she would win if she has overall weaker physical abilities after all these years out of shape. Quote:
I said : right when they reach the peak in their field. And so Scott Richter known as the spame king for example, or Serguei Bubka known since his youth until he was really old for an athlete as the beast pole vaulter ever, Schumacher for the F1 race, lol MJ as the King of the Pop when he was young maybe, Gaary Kasparov the Russian Bear of the check, or even Elvis Presley as The King, etc. But anyway the title of Naruto aren't really like these one, it's more like the Tiger of Canton for example, a title given to fighter who showed incredibly strong capacities. Quote:
Actually I think that the title Professor also have to do with the fact that he raised the Sannin, and I think he was already the strongest at this point. |
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