[Manga] Chapter 502 Discussion

[Alchemist007]

Minato pwnage. But damn I want to know how the sealing into Naruto goes down...the details of the jutsu anyways.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

That still doesn't mean he regenerated. Karin was also yelling in pain before Sasuke withdrew the Amaterasu from her. Tobi/Madara was hit, he got minutely hurt, and then he sent the flames elsewhere or phased the flames through his body.

She was yelling at the moment she was hit by a huge tentacle part, then she passed out while her akatsuki-robe began to burn. I think that's still a mystery, what we know is that he was yelling in pain then he fell back to the darkness while even his mask fell off, then after an unknown amount of time he came back. The time spent might be 10 seconds or 10 minutes too i think. So he could have had the time to grow back his burned parts. I agree that he dematerialized his body or sent the flames elsewhere, but where i don't agree is that he was not damaged. Kishimoto implied that Madara has an unknown power other than just dematerializing when he made Madara fall back into darkness so that we can't see what happened, and when Madara says that Itachi didn't know about his secret. I think the dematerialization was not a secret to Itachi, since it's the basic thing that Madara does, also why use such a surprise amaterasu, the reason must be because Itachi did know about Madara's ability of phasing out his body so he made it a surprise attack such that Madara would not have the time to dematerialize. The other thing that was strange is that when Madara came back his black clothes were repaired, i think at least that should be damage, and if that is the case then it's probably that more time passed before he came back and in the meantime he teleported to his other dimension and repaired himself (including clothes).

Originally Posted by james0246

That's current Tobi/Madara. And, if you'll remember, it took time for his new arm to be grown. In the meantime he was armless until he grew a new arm, so he couldn't have regenerated after the Amaterasu struck him considering that the process is not instantaneous.

But we don't know how much time was it exactly, so it might be only minutes. Also we don't know if in Madara's dimension time flows with the same speed.
BTW if Madara was in his own dimension where he can control time it may be that he is not 100 years old but only 40 or something like that

Originally Posted by james0246

That would be pretty sweet...but it would somewhat contradict the info Minato gave Naruto (or at least make Minato look like a doofus for not telling Naruto what Madara looks like (though it would certainly end the stupid Obito discussions...unless the flashback just has a reaction from Minato where he says "It's you!!!")).

Well as Kushina said Minato didn't have time to tell anything, so she has to tell Naruto about everything that happened. It was a bit lame but if the plot required it i don't mind.

[Shiryuu]

@Madara regeneration: Maybe EMS lets Madara use Izanagi without it ever closing. Probably a similar/more advanced version of it.

[Photonbeam]

It's really cool seeing Minato pawning Madara. Though the Kyuubi is awesome, Minato is more awesome blocking (teleporting) the Kyuubi's attack like it was nothing. I can't wait for the next chapter, it's sure to be action packed than this chapter.

[TheCoconutChef]

Originally Posted by iBeast

Crazy theory here, but I think the man behind the mask is Madara's little brother.

Pretty much.

[Killer Bee]

Well here it goes for me:

I think the man behind the scenes is Zetsu.

I've always kinda thought that, but back then I was caught up in thinking that Pain had an alter ego ... plus back then we were all under the impression that Pain was pulling the strings in Akatsuki.

Zetsu is actually the character that has the most mystery behind himself. I think its very possible that he is the man/thing behind the scenes.

I believe that somehow Zetsu got his hands on Tobirama during that night when Tobirama made Hiruzen the Hokage. Either Tobirama dies and Zetsu absorbed him, or somehow Zetsu saved him from death.

Let's not forget that Zetsu can perfectly copy the chakra of ANYONE he touches. And can create exact copies of that person as well. What is the extent of that ability? Could Zetsu absorb a sharingan and then use it perform sharingan jutsu and abilities?

I think Kishi is giving us hints. Bad and sometimes way too subtle hints, but hints nonetheless.

It was written that "Wherever Madara is, Zetsu is never far behind"

They now say that Tobirama was a master of space/time jutsu.

Then we supposedly saw Madara kill several ANBU-nin with what seemed to me to be water jutsu. Hence all the splish slash in the panes.

IMO, that really points to Tobirama. Tobirama would know how to teleport and use water jutsu. Not only that but he also knew impure world resurrection. If Zetsu were to touch Tobirama, I'm guessing that he would have access to all of those jutsu.

In this latest installment, we never actually saw Madara teleport until AFTER he grabbed and touched Minato.

Just little things, but I get that feeling. There was a reason that Kishi waited this long to let us know that Tobirama was a master at space/time jutsu. And was the death of Tobirama ever really confirmed?

I dunno.

[bhl88]

At least we know that Madara is not invulnerable. (invulnerable as defense, vulnerable when he counterattacks)...

So now the only problem left is how to defeat Madara (there's no one left who can master the 4th's time travel skill, leaves only Naruto to defeat him [but he has no time-space techniques])....

[Shining Celebi]

I'm not so sure that there's still any reason to believe that it's not Madara. Madara is still keeping himself a secret at this point in time. He has no reason to tell Minato who he really is, but he also has no reason to deny it. Also, his response does indicate at least that Madara is still alive, either way. And if he was Madara's brother, why hide it? This also ignores the fact that Madara/Tobi said he killed his brother (chapter 398)...

We also know Itachi strongly believed that it was Madara, or at least told Sasuke that it was Madara. And Itachi is, apparently, quite trustworthy and knowledgeable. He knew that Madara was behind the kyuubi attacking Konoha, something Madara claimed was a lie. Itachi insisted Madara was alive, saying it three or four times. There's also chapter 396 p17, where Kishimoto indicates that Tobi is indeed Uchiha Madara in the "NEXT TIME ON NARUTO" text. Tobi has said in a straightfoward manner that he is Madara (chapter 397 p16). Kisame recognized him as Madara.

I think any hint to the contrary is just Kishimoto trying to keep people guessing, but there's no serious reason to think he's anybody but Madara.

[james0246]

I like the idea, but a few quick comments...

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Let's not forget that Zetsu can perfectly copy the chakra of ANYONE he touches. And can create exact copies of that person as well. What is the extent of that ability? Could Zetsu absorb a sharingan and then use it perform sharingan jutsu and abilities?

It is unknown if the clone changes on the genetic level to be identical to the original, or if it superficial change only. I only speculate on this possibility due to the fact that the Kisame-clone turned back into a white Zetsu clone after a short while. So while the chakra signature may be exact, I do not think they are genetic copies. Consequently, I doubt Zetsu could copy bloodlines.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Then we supposedly saw Madara kill several ANBU-nin with what seemed to me to be water jutsu. Hence all the splish slash in the panes.

I still disagree with this interpretation. The sfx didn't imply anything other than Tobi/Madara lowering dead bodies into the water. Additionally, even if it was a water jutsu, you don't have to be Tobirama to use water jutsus...it just seems to be a bit of a stretch.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

IMO, that really points to Tobirama. Tobirama would know how to teleport and use water jutsu.

Knowing Time/Space Ninjutsu does not automatically mean Tobirama can teleport. In fact, I'm almost convinced that Edo Tensei is Tobirama's supreme Time/Space ninjutsu Minato mentions (summoning is a Time/Space ninjutsu, and Edo Tensei is a summoning, ergo Edo Tensei was what Minato was mentioning). But, I agree that the inclusion of Tobirama's jutsu when compared to Minato's and Tobi's/Madara's could indicate that the 2nd's technique is teleportation based.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Not only that but he also knew impure world resurrection. If Zetsu were to touch Tobirama, I'm guessing that he would have access to all of those jutsu.

There is no indication anywhere that Zetsu can copy jutsus just by touching someone. In fact, this seems like a very large leap in reasoning to me.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

In this latest installment, we never actually saw Madara teleport until AFTER he grabbed and touched Minato.

Why is this relevant? Could you explain this point more?

edit: Wait, I understand now. Your saying because he touched Minato, Tobi could then teleport. I have to disagree, if only because Tobi/Madara's teleportation is clearly greater than Minato's.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Just little things, but I get that feeling. There was a reason that Kishi waited this long to let us know that Tobirama was a master at space/time jutsu. And was the death of Tobirama ever really confirmed?

I do like the theory that Tobirama is actually Tobi, but I am unsure if Zetsu needs to be connected to the two. It could have been just as easy for Tobirama to take a Sharingan and with his Senjuu blood learn to control the doujutsu (much the same as Danzou used Hashirama's blood to control his Sharingans). In fact, since a combination of Uchiha and Senjuu is a closer match to Rikudou-Sennin, Tobi having nothing to do with Zetsu makes more sense than Mr. Aloe actually being in control.

That being said, for future reference, there is a Zetsu thread .

[madv2c]

Originally Posted by bhl88

At least we know that Madara is not invulnerable. (invulnerable as defense, vulnerable when he counterattacks)...

So now the only problem left is how to defeat Madara (there's no one left who can master the 4th's time travel skill, leaves only Naruto to defeat him [but he has no time-space techniques])....

Naruto in sage mode + the toad army was able to defeat God realm, and the other 5 Pain's. Pain was more invincible with his 5 second interval, and if Naruto penetrated his defense he can beat Madara.

Assuming he doesn't have anything else up his sleeve present Naruto > present Madara.

[Rahan]

This arc debunks another part of Madara's story.

Sasuke's house is the very same he lived in shortly before the massacre and it was already in a Uchiha compound.

Compare chapter 501 page 17 (bottom panel) and chapter 224 page 10 to see it's the house with the same Uchiha banner.
chapter 222 page 9 shows the wall facing the house is decorated with Uchiha symbol. chapter 502 page 2 shows the markings were already there before the Kyuubi attack, so it was already an Uchiha compound before the attack.

So the Uchiha weren't segregated and forced to live in a part of the village after the attack.

[Kallen4life]

Tobidara also casually drops in on travelling Sasuke and Co. to tell them pein pwned Konoha & Naruto pwned pein .. he even says it is within his power to sense where someone is .. his range is pretty sick too I guess


anyway, AWESOME chapter, Minato skyrockets naruto-manga quality levels

[Blaat]

And now we know why Tobi has a twirling mask.

[Apollian]

Originally Posted by FireDetei

Upgrade to instant teleportation? I can only assume that it would mean not having to use seals......so similar to that Jumper movie

Minato was using level 2 Hiraishin,
which I thought he failed to get to?..maybe it was just me reading it wrong.

[Apollian]

Originally Posted by FireDetei

Upgrade to instant teleportation? I can only assume that it would mean not having to use seals......so similar to that Jumper movie

Originally Posted by The Small One

Maybe the use of a space-time jutsu leaves some sort of track, which he is able to follow.

Naruto in Sage mode can tune into Natural energy all around him for miles.
thats how he found Nagato in the mountains after Naruto destroyed Pain.
so its possible that your correct, and he could use this ability to track the use of a space-time jutsu

[CuXe]

This was a very enjoyable chapter, that space-time teleportation technique Minato used on the Kyuubi's blast was awesome and his fighting style against Madara is hella cool, I have to second that poster above who said that Minato is the best fighter Konoha ever produced!... some premium man seed there eh? lol

The good thing we learned here is that Madara is Pwnable as long as you are able to counter his teleportation speed which could prove to be hell for Naruto unless he receives a time-space power-up to battle against Madara but I am getting way ahead of myself here.

BTW... this story is being told by Kushina, she rocks as a story-teller! Such juicy details!

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by madv2c

Naruto in sage mode + the toad army was able to defeat God realm, and the other 5 Pain's. Pain was more invincible with his 5 second interval, and if Naruto penetrated his defense he can beat Madara.

Assuming he doesn't have anything else up his sleeve present Naruto > present Madara.

Although Naruto can track him, it'll be useless if he can't hit him (and Madara will be on his guard).

[madv2c]

Originally Posted by bhl88

Although Naruto can track him, it'll be useless if he can't hit him (and Madara will be on his guard).

Yeah if he's on constant defense, but he can't beat Naruto without attacking... so heh.

[Whitemoon648]

I thought it was Awesome. I always thought Minato was overrated ( specially) after Tsunade flash back that naruto has surpassed him and Jiraya.

But now It showed us how strong Minato actually was.

He defeated Tobi/Madara so easily and countered Kubi's blast with ease. Imagine Him against Pain. It would probably end so fast ( Of course with Minato winning *_*).

Minato is so much more interesting than Naruto. Plus he seems to be very intelligent. He thinks every think very thoroughly and seems to figure out other people's justsu's very fast. Something Naruto can not do.


Also Tobi's identity came up again. I think there are some hints that he might be Obito. He was acting very familiar with Yondaime ( as if he knew him very well/ As maybe teacher and students know each other? ) as well. So who knows. Tobi might actually not be Madara.

[Ashaman]

Originally Posted by Whitemoon648

I thought it was Awesome. I always thought Minato was overrated ( specially) after Tsunade flash back that naruto has surpassed him and Jiraya.

But now It showed us how strong Minato actually was.

He defeated Tobi/Madara so easily and countered Kubi's blast with ease. Imagine Him against Pain. It would probably end so fast ( Of course with Minato winning *_*).

Minato is so much more interesting than Naruto.


Also Tobi's identity came up again. I think there are some hints that he might be Obito. He was acting very familiar with Yondaime ( as if he knew him very well/ As maybe teacher and students know each other? ) as well. So who knows. Tobi might actually not be Madara.

I don't think it would be that easy for a Minato win against Pain, but he could.

As time goes on, the idea that Madara isn't Tobi grows, but I still refuse to believe he is Obito.