Nanoha Manga Discussion

[D2]

Evil or not regardless, I still find the Huckbein group overall to be a collection of 50% sadists and 100% jerkoffs. I don't know if it'll happen for sure, but if Nanoha and Co. manage to shut them up, I'll be a happy man.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You can sit in your warm room, in a comfy chair, in front of your computer and easily say, "Well, the choice is obvious!" To people in worse situations, who struggle to survive, who have been shunned by society and called names like "poison", who are attacked on sight... Yes, "stealing" is wrong. But go ahead and call the little child who steals a loaf a bread "evil."

Sorry, that card doesn't work with me. If I was doing what they were doing, I would KNOW it was evil. And I would feel terrible for doing it. Albeit, I don't think I would do it in the first place. They feel no guilt, they are evil. Comparing a child who steals bread to not starve and a mass murderer who kills to survive is hardly a justifiable comparison. Not even remotely the same. And they called themselves poison, if I recall.

/end

[Skane]

Glancing through the back few pages of this thread, I'm just wondering, why the comparisons between stealing and killing? A kill is irrevocable and irreversible. A stolen item however, can be returned or replaced.

The gravity of the situation is not the same for both.

That said, I don't think we know enough about the situation that the Hucks are in at the moment. In order to paint them as irredeemable or not, we need to know what exactly is the Eclipse infection, and whether or not there are reasonable alternatives to murder in order to stave off the ill-effects.

Cheers.

[al103]

The biggest problem with debate is that it can't be resolved. Because it's debate when one side have position "I would've done exactly same choice and I'm not evil, so they aren't evil" - and they'll never agree with other side. Only, you know... it doesn't make Huck's not evil for other side, it makes that debaters evil, just not in situation yet to show that side.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Skane

That said, I don't think we know enough about the situation that the Hucks are in at the moment. In order to paint them as irredeemable or not, we need to know what exactly is the Eclipse infection, and whether or not there are reasonable alternatives to murder in order to stave off the ill-effects.

You bring up a fair point that I pointed out. To a degree, what we have here is a repeat of the Wolkenritter. To compare to A's, we are in those first couple of episodes. Vita has attacked and presumably killed two people, and then attacks Nanoha, seemingly aiming to kill her. Signum and Zafira arrive and beat down Fate and Arf who has arrived to protect Nanoha. Shamal even tortures Nanoha with an attack that almost seems like it's going to kill her. The Wolkenritter certainly seemed evil then.

That's where we are in Force. Of course, you're telling me the difference is that we know the Hucks have actually killed people. Well, given the long history of the Wolkenritter, they must have killed thousands in their past. But to a degree, Tszuki is repeating what we've already seen, and just upping the ante a bit. Much like Signum and Vita, the Hucks are going out of their way to not kill. But they also won't be taken captive by the Bureau.

And with that said, I need to revisit my Isis/Karen theory, because it conflicts with my "Isis is a cyborg" theory. So, watch as I do mental contortions to make both fit!

/conspiracy cap on

Jail based his AMF technology on early Eclipse research. He managed to get a hold of one of the research subject's DNA (Karen), and was going to clone her into a combat cyborg. However, "Isis" wasn't ready as a combat cyborg in time for the JS incident. She was instead freed by the Bureau once Fate prevented the base from blowing up. Thing is, since it was an early form of the Eclipse and due to the way Jail worked the genetic cloning, Isis isn't technically infected. however, little does she know that, in her DNA, she possess the cure to the infection... if it can be realized and studied in time!

/conspiracy cap off

There; made Isis and Karen related while keeping Isis a combat cyborg. Now let's see how wrong I am!

[al103]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Much like Signum and Vita, the Hucks are going out of their way to not kill.

Say it to nuns.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by al103

Say it to nuns.

We already know the virus forces them to kill. Like I said, they are going out of their way to not kill. It seems the only times they do kill are like Fortis said; when it is unavoidable, like when the virus forces them to. Bad, but if I infect you with a fatal disease that you're going to die from, did I kill you? Am I evil for doing so?

I'll also further twist that we don't know what the nuns were up to, and perhaps they attempted to attack Veyron, and his blood-rage took over.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Skane

That said, I don't think we know enough about the situation that the Hucks are in at the moment. In order to paint them as irredeemable or not, we need to know what exactly is the Eclipse infection, and whether or not there are reasonable alternatives to murder in order to stave off the ill-effects.

Cheers.

Don't know about the others, but I don't consider the Hucks to be irredeemable. Evil, yes, but not irredeemable.

Circumstances or not, "being forced to kill" and "being forced to kill and enjoying it" is a rather broad line.

[al103]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Bad, but if I infect you with a fatal disease that you're going to die from, did I kill you? Am I evil for doing so?

If you knowingly go where other people are - you did and you are.

PS. What Hucks do is evil... but they aren't evil because of it, but because they think it's natural choice. Same with some of Huck's apologists, while they don't do evil I can actually consider them evil as they think it's natural choice.
PPS. And finally they happy family bonding... Like they are only real people that should live. They attempt to stop Touma from doing right choice. If in such situation I would fail to make right choice I would've at least start killing with other infected to reduce death count.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Don't know about the others, but I don't consider the Hucks to be irredeemable. Evil, yes, but not irredeemable.

Circumstances or not, "being forced to kill" and "being forced to kill and enjoying it" is a rather broad line.

Of course, after all, this still Nanoha what are we talking about(or at least i hope that's still the case). Some of them will probably die(either by defeat or by heroic sacrifice), but some of them will very probably survive(the yougers most likely, Arnage and Stella are plausible candidates). T think that Stella could be a similar case to Lutecia, when she finally receives the chance of living as a normal human and lessons about humanity and respect, she will start to behave more nromally and stop talking so carelessly about other people lifes xDU.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by al103

PS. What Hucks do is evil... but they aren't evil because of it, but because they think it's natural choice. Same with some of Huck's apologists, while they don't do evil I can actually consider them evil as they think it's natural choice.
PPS. And finally they happy family bonding... Like they are only real people that should live. They attempt to stop Touma from doing right choice. If in such situation I would fail to make right choice I would've at least start killing with other infected to reduce death count.

As far as Touma is concerned, they think he would be better off with them. In their viewpoint, Touma is going to bring sorrow to people around him, he's going to be hated and disliked and shunned... and to a degree, Touma already feels this, with how he nearly killed Lily and Isis.

Anyway, al103, I did like one thing you said about how this debate mirrors the clash between RF6 and the Hucks; both sides feel they are right. And those feelings of rightness were developed from personal experiences.

If there is one thing I could get across, it would not be about good and evil. It would more be along the lines of, "I need more information before I can judge." I want to withhold judgment properly until I learn the Hucks backstory.

Why?

Because while I can understand why some would consider the Hucks acts to be evil, I can also envision a number of histories where I would find myself unable to condemn someone because of what they did. If they stole food to live, and ate that food, then it's gone. It's evil in a way, but if they were starving and felt they had no other choice, I can't find myself condemning them for it. Killing is a subject I fill has a number of nuances, and someone who has been mentally tortured and kills isn't really evil; just twisted. Not Guilty by reason of Insanity.

So I suppose I've been taking this "Hucks aren't really evil" road just to showcase that there are scenarios which put them more into the "tragic" role.

At the least, things aren't adding up for me, and I'm waiting for the "It was a Small Wish" episode for the Hucks. If their backstory fails to garner enough sympathy for me, then and only then will I place them in the evil category.

One thing I don't want to do, is have a knee-jerk reaction and condemn before hearing the full story.

[Justin_Brett]

are you still going on about this

seriously

[Tiresias]

I'm not even remotely a philosopher so I'm not going to touch the morality debate, but I'm going to have to comment as a viewer...

In the end, like I've said a few manga chapters back, for me it's a matter of presentation. The Huckebein may have a sad freudian excuse story, but we as the readers have yet to see it, even one bit. And you can say all you want about the possibilities, but unless that tragic backstory(TM) gets to be shown soon, the hearts of pretty much the majority of viewers would already be cold, no sympathy left to share.

Just like the death of the Fushigi Yuugi main villain. We found out very late in the story that he was abused as a child and was therefore excused for all the atrocities he did in the story, including getting a free ticket to heaven? Not. Buying. It. One. Bit.

[Justin_Brett]

^ This. You can wax on and on about how a villain became the way they did, but unless you actually SEE it, it's just you coming up with a hypothetical backstory.

[Kaijo]

It's not so much about a hypothetical backstory, but about not rushing to judgment.

Can you at least agree that rushing to judgment, knee-jerking, and jumping to conclusions before hearing the entire story, is a somewhat bad way to do things?

Edit: By the standards I'm hearing, the Wolkenritter are evil. They killed, possibly more than the Hucks ever did. They don't have an excuse, either, since it is shown very deliberately that they can decide to go against their master's wishes. So everyone they killed was a result of a choice they made.

Signum is evil.

[Justin_Brett]

I can agree that talking so in-depth about morality and the concept of evil in regards to villains as idiotic as these is a waste of time for everyone involved, and we should just drop it now.

[00-Raiser]

I'm just not fond of how people are throwing the word 'evil' around like it's some sort of quantifiable concept. "They kill, therefore they are evil." "They break the law, therefore they are evil." It's not so cut and dry. If you want to look at it that way, every single one of us is evil.

Forcing one's will onto others and not giving them a fair choice is known as an evil act. Therefore, the Bureau is evil since they're enforcing what they believe is right on the entire universe. Nanoha is evil because she forces her will onto others all the time, boiling it down to "Do what I want or I'll blast you and take what I want." Fate didn't want to be Nanoha's friend, but Nanoha wouldn't take no for an answer. Thoma wants to go off into seclusion so he doesn't hurt others. It's his choice and he has a right to free will, doesn't he? Nope, Nanoha cares not!

So yeah, words like 'evil' are being tossed around like we have some sort of divine right to pass judgement.

If anything, the Huckebein are incredibly pure. They know what they are, they know what they have to do, and they'll admit it. There's no false pretenses of doing things 'for the greater good' or some supposedly 'noble cause.' They do what they have to for the sake of what they care about. Labeling them as moralless psychopaths would be inaccurate, since they care about their family and have their own set of morals they uphold. Just because you don't agree with said morals doesn't make them any less legitimate.

[Nanya01]

I'm going to say this, right now.

I didn't like A's that much.

Nor did I like the Wolkenritter in A's.

There, I said it.

The biggest difference, to me, about the Hucks and the Wolkenritter...

The Wolkenritter were ATTACKING the Bureau and getting away from the best that was around at the time and seemingly enjoying it while they were doing so.

The Hucks here? They're like "just leave us alone" and then they got attacked. (Granted, they're also enjoying the fight, but the thing here is, they just want to be left alone)

That's just me personally. I did, however, end up liking the Wolkenritter AFTER A's, but during A's?

Eh, even rewatching it doesn't help matters any.

Do I LIKE what's going on in Force with the characters getting beat down?

NO!

I never said I did.

[al103]

Backstory help to explain deeds, not mentality. With 'ritters it was easy to buy backstory, while what they did was evil (by they own admission btw) they didn't shown that they think such actions something normal and natural or any other signs of being evil besides evil actions. Hucks did show they mentality and how they think, so even with tragic backstory they are just bunch of evil jerks were they such from the start or became like that with time being actually not important for any conclusions of what they are and what should be done with them now.

[al103]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

The Hucks here? They're like "just leave us alone" and then they got attacked. (Granted, they're also enjoying the fight, but the thing here is, they just want to be left alone)

Only it Hucks that came to the TSAB territory and started killing people, not TSAB came to them. It's not Hucks that were attacked, it's TSAB caught them red-handed.