(L+CR) Overlord Season 3

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Yes, that's exactly what I ment.

On top of that Ainz is a very, very special case, even for a human that becomes an undead. I am sure in-universe in YGGDRASSIL and/or the New World there are probably methods for a human to become an independent (as in not controlled by a necromancer) undead by transforming their own body into an undead, I'd think. But Ainz isn't like that. He didn't go through any such "proper" ritual, but rather appearently got his human mind forcefully fused into his Overlord (species name) body by whatever process that turned the DMMO characters into real entities in another world.

This might cause several mental problems other than just adjusting to the mental resistences, but also the messy fusion of science-world human mind to magic-world undead Overlord body.

Actually, I believe the opposite is true.

From what little we know about Ainz before he entered the NW, and his attitudes during the time he was playing the game and maintaining the guild all by himself, Ainz is ALREADY mentally an undead.

The author was extremely clever about this. Momoga once was happy, but then everyone left him. He stuck around keeping the fortress running by himself because it was the only thing that mattered to him in his life. Like an undead that attacked the living because it wanted to feel "life", Momoga cared only for what he long lost; the guild and the friends in it, who would never return.
The Tomb is both literal and metaphorical. Momoga is trapped in the past, a shell of his former self. Him being an undead now is just his body taking shape to match what he feels on the inside.

This is why everything Ainz does now, both the good and the bad, are all revolving around the old Guild. He rewards those who praise the guild, protects those who reminds him of his guild members, and specifically considers the creations of his lost friends as his adopted children. Above all else, he doesn't want harm to come to any of the Guardians and Maid corps. As a dead person, he can no longer change. The Lich body is just icing on the cake, and not the real cause of what made him detached.

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by Yan3242

If some of you guys hate ainz because he's evil, villain, no humanity, murderer etc, then why are you following this series? It was established from episode 1 that these nazarick people is not your do goodies, saving the world, help someone in trouble kind of people. Nazarick was made for player who play as non human race to band together and fight back against other human race player from their constant abuse of PKing and discrimination.

I mean, the root of ainz villain or non human trait is pretty much set in stone from episode 1, and was further shown with the floor guardian.

I think you got it backwards. At this point, most of the posters here had already accepted that Ainz is an evil mad egomaniac hypocrite monster. The reason why is the debate or "discussion" is going here is because the are few posters here think that Ainz is not evil and everything he has done is for a "greater good", "necessity"and "self defense".

[EroKing]

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Sixth

I think you got it backwards. At this point, most of the posters here had already accepted that Ainz is an evil mad egomaniac hypocrite monster. The reason why is the debate or "discussion" is going here is because the are few posters here think that Ainz is not evil and everything he has done is for a "greater good", "necessity"and "self defense".

I have no problem calling his evil deeds evil.

However, there is nothing evil about his act in the battle. The deception that cause the battle itself, sure, but the actual casting of the spell and killing of armed soldiers is not evil.

Most of the evil deeds done in Ainz's name are nearly entirely hidden. But just because there are parts of him that is evil, doesn't mean you get to call everything he does evil.

[Yan3242]

few posters here think that Ainz is not evil and everything he has done is for a "greater good", "necessity"and "self defense".

Well... they not wrong i guess, it is for greater good. Greater good for nazarick that is.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I have no problem calling his evil deeds evil.

However, there is nothing evil about his act in the battle. The deception that cause the battle itself, sure, but the actual casting of the spell and killing of armed soldiers is not evil.

Most of the evil deeds done in Ainz's name are nearly entirely hidden. But just because there are parts of him that is evil, doesn't mean you get to call everything he does evil.

I think the expectation, with such power differential, would be for Ainz to demonstrate his power and give the opposing army a chance to surrender or even just flee. Not to start with killing 70k people who didn't even want to be there in the first place, and then go on killing the rest. It's up to you whether you hold someone who doesn't follow those standards "evil", but don't act like Ainz had no choice. He chose to claim E-Rantel for himself, and he chose to massacre the Kingdom army.

[SolidN7]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Actually, I believe the opposite is true.

From what little we know about Ainz before he entered the NW, and his attitudes during the time he was playing the game and maintaining the guild all by himself, Ainz is ALREADY mentally an undead.

The author was extremely clever about this. Momoga once was happy, but then everyone left him. He stuck around keeping the fortress running by himself because it was the only thing that mattered to him in his life. Like an undead that attacked the living because it wanted to feel "life", Momoga cared only for what he long lost; the guild and the friends in it, who would never return.
The Tomb is both literal and metaphorical. Momoga is trapped in the past, a shell of his former self. Him being an undead now is just his body taking shape to match what he feels on the inside.

This is why everything Ainz does now, both the good and the bad, are all revolving around the old Guild. He rewards those who praise the guild, protects those who reminds him of his guild members, and specifically considers the creations of his lost friends as his adopted children. Above all else, he doesn't want harm to come to any of the Guardians and Maid corps. As a dead person, he can no longer change. The Lich body is just icing on the cake, and not the real cause of what made him detached.

^This. Also Overlord follows "the might is right", so the morality in Overlord is unnecessary

[Keila]

For arguments sake, if the 'humans' of the new world weren't actually human, lets say they were some weird race of fish-like-beings. Would there be any debate or questioning of morality for what Ainz has done?

Spoiler for lets say they look like this:

.

If he sacrificed 70,000 of these fish creates to make the goats, would anyone bat an eye?



What if they were robotic life-forms? etc. Would the perception of good/evil change?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Keila

For arguments sake, if the 'humans' of the new world weren't actually human, lets say they were some weird race of fish-like-beings. Would there be any debate or questioning of morality for what Ainz has done?

Yes? I mean, I already wasn't big on what he did to the Lizardmen. Morally speaking.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Actually, I believe the opposite is true.

From what little we know about Ainz before he entered the NW, and his attitudes during the time he was playing the game and maintaining the guild all by himself, Ainz is ALREADY mentally an undead.

The author was extremely clever about this. Momoga once was happy, but then everyone left him. He stuck around keeping the fortress running by himself because it was the only thing that mattered to him in his life. Like an undead that attacked the living because it wanted to feel "life", Momoga cared only for what he long lost; the guild and the friends in it, who would never return.
The Tomb is both literal and metaphorical. Momoga is trapped in the past, a shell of his former self. Him being an undead now is just his body taking shape to match what he feels on the inside.

This is why everything Ainz does now, both the good and the bad, are all revolving around the old Guild. He rewards those who praise the guild, protects those who reminds him of his guild members, and specifically considers the creations of his lost friends as his adopted children. Above all else, he doesn't want harm to come to any of the Guardians and Maid corps. As a dead person, he can no longer change. The Lich body is just icing on the cake, and not the real cause of what made him detached.

You are really stretching that metaphor of "being like an undead" here, don't you think? Just because someone is overcome with sadness or perhaps even signs of depression doesn't make them literally be undeads. To call his Overlord body an "icing on the cake" is really underestimating the effects of getting an undead body, specifically the lvl 100 Overlord body.

Ainz HIMSELF says that things are different, as DemonneoPT pointed out. He claims that he used to be very sensitive towards gore, strongly implied two times (first in S1 EP3, then again in S3 EP12) that he "really stopped being a human", which was clearly refering to before and after the world transfer. There is absolutely nothing to believe that all these changes already happened before the world transfer.

And where does the part of "as a dead person he can no longer change" come from? The evidence shows us the opposite. There is a sub-plot going on in the story about Ainz adapting to the New Worlds's fighting methods. He learns about Clementine's fighting methods when fighting against her, later he trains his melee battle skills with Foresight and later, after the content of the anime he does another battle where starts applying what he learnt.
Other than that he made bonds with 3 people as I mentioned previously, 4 if you include Gazef.

I don't think that a person who "can't change" would be capable of doing any of these. I don't know what made you think such rule even existed in the first place. He isn't dead. He is undead - and a special case at that. The LN vol. 10 really addressed the contrast of Ainz as an undead in comparison to the undead of the New World, so I really hope we'll get a season 4 announcement at the end, with the silhouette reveal at the end of the final episode.




Where are the previews? I went to sleep, woke up and the previews still aren't there. Usually they should be available around this time. I think this is the longest we have had to wait yet.

[eiyuuou]

So if the kingdom were goblins and the empire were trolls, would you still complain?

[Keila]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes? I mean, I already wasn't big on what he did to the Lizardmen. Morally speaking.

Because they're 'human like', or because he's effectively toying with another race?

If they weren't lizard men, but, weird rapist-like-tentacle-monsters that reproduce via inseminating 'hosts' (like the 'alien', from alien series, the black ones) you would feel exactly the same way?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Keila

For arguments sake, if the 'humans' of the new world weren't actually human, lets say they were some weird race of fish-like-beings. Would there be any debate or questioning of morality for what Ainz has done?

Spoiler for lets say they look like this:

.

If he sacrificed 70,000 of these fish creates to make the goats, would anyone bat an eye?

Originally Posted by eiyuuou

So if the kingdom were goblins and the empire were trolls, would you still complain?

People already had this kind of discussion back in Season 2. Here's a snippet from my own comments back then:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

If said goblins and kobolds have intelligence and societal lives like humans and they don't actively hurt humans then yeah, I will feel bad for them too, just like the innocent people in this episode. I'm trying to not be a speciesist here .

So, clearly, like Optimus Prime said: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" especially those beings which mostly live by not hurting other sentient & intelligent beings. So what if they look strange? If they live quietly and peacefully, no other race/species have the rights to screw their lives over.

Like, have you never seen Star Trek? Didn't you know the peaceful message between different races and (hopefully in a possible future) between alien species throughout galaxies the Star Trek franchise has been teaching its wide audience for decades? It's not weird for an audience to take pity on other species in a fiction and (hopefully) in real life.

Originally Posted by Keila

What if they were robotic life-forms? etc. Would the perception of good/evil change?

Bruh, have you never seen The Matrix? Have you never seen Tetsuwan Atom/Astro Boy? If the robots & AIs are self-aware, sentient and have no ill will toward humans, they have rights too. This is why you should never make a self-aware AI. Not just because they're gonna turn into killer robots like Skynet & Ultron, but living AI also have rights to live. That's also why cloning human is still debatable even today.

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by Keila

For arguments sake, if the 'humans' of the new world weren't actually human, lets say they were some weird race of fish-like-beings. Would there be any debate or questioning of morality for what Ainz has done?

Spoiler for lets say they look like this:

.

If he sacrificed 70,000 of these fish creates to make the goats, would anyone bat an eye?

What if they were robotic life-forms? etc. Would the perception of good/evil change?

Ever heard of Detroit Become Human video game? The game-ending answered your question You can watch the whole cinematic on youtube.

and to your answer, YES, if those being was given the same treatment and background story like as Lizardmen. To be frank, I was pretty sad when those named Lizardmen was killed at that time.

[Keila]

I can honestly say that in all my play-throughs of 'Stellaris' not once have I ever walked the path that did not result in the extermination of all other civilizations.

Given that Stellaris is supposed to be representative of space-faring civilizations with (depending on your map size) hundreds, if not thousands of stars and the races/civilizations that populate the planets within the galaxy that my 'kill-count' is at least on par with Ainz (if not completely exceeding him).

I do have diplomatic options within the game, I don't necessarily have to wipe everyone out but inevitably that's what I end up gravitating towards and never have I questioned my actions (subsequent extermination, enslavement, etc).

On that note

Spoiler for Stellaris, not Overlord related:

As I've stated previously

Originally Posted by Keila

Maybe there's just something wrong with me, but if I had to fill Ainz's shoes in the scenario he finds himself to be in I'd pretty much walk the exact path he's taken.

+ He acts for the benefit of friends and family (i.e Nazarick)
+ Non-friends/family are defined by their value and merit (in relation to friends and family) but are otherwise treated indifferently unless they do anything that should have they judged otherwise

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Keila

Because they're 'human like', or because he's effectively toying with another race?

If they weren't lizard men, but, weird rapist-like-tentacle-monsters that reproduce via inseminating 'hosts' (like the 'alien', from alien series, the black ones) you would feel exactly the same way?

Depends. Are they inseminating mere animals, the way we exploit pigs, or are they preying on other sapient people?

[eiyuuou]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

People already had this kind of discussion back in Season 2. Here's a snippet from my own comments back then:
So, clearly, like Optimus Prime said: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" especially those beings which mostly live by not hurting other sentient & intelligent beings. So what if they look strange? If they live quietly and peacefully, no other race/species have the rights to screw their lives over.

Have you not watched Overlord?
S1 Starts off with humans killing humans to hunt down a human.
S2 Tribe Lizards killed other tribe lizards to reduce their numbers. one tribe chieftain even resorted to cannibalism to feed its tribe.
S2 If freedom is the right of all sentient beings, why is there slave trafficking, illegal drugs, assassinations in the kingdom? Tuare was taken away by a noble, sold as a slave, used as a prostitute and was about to be disposed off when sebas encountered her with her inside a bag.
S3 the prince barbro belittles gazef for being a commoner in spite of his achievements, wants to imprison gazef for talking back at him and decides to raze carne village on a whim. by the way, the little idiot is also involved with eight fingers.
In the new world, humans are already screwing others' lives over.
unfortunately, your response ignores the entirety of overlord.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by eiyuuou

Have you not watched Overlord?
S1 Starts off with humans killing humans to hunt down a human.
S2 Tribe Lizards killed other tribe lizards to reduce their numbers. one tribe chieftain even resorted to cannibalism to feed its tribe.
S2 If freedom is the right of all sentient beings, why is there slave trafficking, illegal drugs, assassinations in the kingdom? Tuare was taken away by a noble, sold as a slave, used as a prostitute and was about to be disposed off when sebas encountered her with her inside a bag.
S3 the prince barbro belittles gazef for being a commoner in spite of his achievements, wants to imprison gazef for talking back at him and decides to raze carne village on a whim. by the way, the little idiot is also involved with eight fingers.
In the new world, humans are already screwing others' lives over.
unfortunately, your response ignores the entirety of overlord.

All of those deeds that you listed are admitted by various characters in the story as something that's repulsive or morally wrong to the point where even Sebas was taken aback. So don't act like those deeds are something routinely done by the majority of people in the New World coz it's clearly not depicted that way. Only a select group of people consider those atrocities as something normal. But what about lowly people who just want to live their simple lives who got treated badly by Nazarick? Are you saying that they don't deserve sympathy? Jeez, these edgy generations sometimes lost me.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

All of those deeds that you listed are admitted by various characters in the story as something that's repulsive or morally wrong to the point where even Sebas was taken aback. So don't act like those deeds are something routinely done by the majority of people in the New World coz it's clearly not depicted that way. Only a select group of people consider those atrocities as something normal. But what about lowly people who just want to live their simple lives who got treated badly by Nazarick? Are you saying that they don't deserve sympathy? Jeez, these edgy generations sometimes lost me.

To be honest, I believe that indifference to evil is more insidious than evil itself. The soldiers in the Kingdom serve the nobles, watching them committing evil on daily basic yet still choose to obey them, to become their tool to brutalize their fellow countrymen. Yes, only a small group of humans in the NW commits evil actions regularly, but the majority of the population allows those things to happen without doing anything to stop it. I think, at the very least, they cannot be considered innocent. Actually, if we consider the fact that in the NWers' eyes, Ainz is basically a god, he killing thousands of the Kingdom's people is no different to how God punished the sinful city of Sodom for all of their sins.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

Yes, only a small group of humans in the NW commits evil actions regularly, but the majority of the population allows those things to happen without doing anything to stop it. I think, at the very least, they cannot be considered innocent.

You're saying it like those lowly peasants have a choice. What can they do beside laying low if they still want to live? That kind of thing is still happening even in our world today (see North Korea). No one is innocent, yes, but that doesn't mean they deserved to be purged or enslaved.