2009-02-11, 20:39 | Link #2022 | ||
Srsly ?
Artist
Join Date: Apr 2008
|
Quote:
So basically, she is able to appreciate this new word, even more than anyone since she lived a few hundreds of years and certainly saw horrible things. Okouchi simply likes to emphasize on Nunally and Kallen, even though, just like you said, even though Suzaku is important, with his cursed existence, it wouldn't have make a lot of sense to name him. Mngafan : Please. Lulu/CC = Not lovers; Lulu didn't saw C.C. as a lover but as an "equal". Final point. The end. It's not something bad at all, it doesn't weaken her importance, it wasn't about romance that's it. Quote:
But you know we love it
__________________
|
||
2009-02-11, 21:13 | Link #2025 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
As for Rolo, he had been biased against Nunnally since at least episode 7, and had kept it hidden inside for the most part. He killed Shirley because he was both insecure in his position as one true sibling to Lelouch upon the mention of Nunnally, and above all, downright insane. Apparently he saw her desire to help Lulu get back together with Nunnally as a threat to his bond with Lulu. Quote:
|
||
2009-02-11, 21:23 | Link #2026 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: depths of Kagutsuchi where the Sheol Gate is located
|
Yes because anyone twisted enough to think of a random thought like killing a mass audience of spectators to prove a point can never be taken as a joke Hell an alternative would be to strip infront of everyone that seems more humane at least they'll think she was more of an exhibitionist than A CRAZED MURDERING PSYCHO!
|
2009-02-11, 21:27 | Link #2028 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
And please stop with the rolling eyes. |
|
2009-02-11, 22:15 | Link #2031 | ||
~Hi -mi- tsu des~
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canada
Age: 39
|
Quote:
See the big deal about Shirley knowing about Nunally is that she is bringing Nunally into the equation again as Lelouch's little sister. It threatened his position as Lelouch's little brother because it was a role he was assigned initially. But he had grown attached to that role. Shirley represented the very thing that threatened the kind of like that Rolo had never experienced before until that point and she was killed because of it. THAT is the difference. Quote:
Dieing and being held accountable for your actions are two very different things. The question becomes: "do you believe death is a punishment for sins or is it an escape?" Julius Caesar believed that death was an escape from your crimes and that living means having the chance to atone and make up for them as well as carrying the burdens of what you have done. You yourself mentioned that dieing just means the end and is that a living perosn can do more then a dead person. The same would apply here logically as Rolo being alive means he can atone throughout the rest of his life by making a positive difference. Now that being said, there is another thing we have to take into account, and this is something that is oft ignored in these threads. This is a work of fiction where scenes and events are played up by literary devices to leave an impact on the viewers. Death in literature is not an end but very often a device used to propel the plot, give an important character a driving force for development and often leaves a lasting impact on the character's actions and thoughts. In a case like this, a character in literature, especially for side characters like Shirley, they can actually accomplish more in death then living. |
||
2009-02-11, 23:26 | Link #2032 | |
[Your] clan on Steam
|
Quote:
|
|
2009-02-12, 00:49 | Link #2033 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: U.S.A.
Age: 35
|
Quote:
And yeah. Rolo is a psychotic little troll. I understand. Quote:
Quote:
Now does Rolo fit into this category? Well, I wouldn't go that far. Before he died he did demonstrate a desire for independence and self-realization, though he still had no moral compass. Had he lived longer would he have ever apologized for killing Shirley? Well, I don't know and who can say? I've compared Rolo to Pinocchio, being a "tool" or a "not-real" boy seeking to become a real boy. The problem is that Rolo never had a Jiminy Cricket. Quote:
|
||||
2009-02-12, 11:44 | Link #2034 | |||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
|
Quote:
It's clear to me that after accepting Rolo as his little brother, Lelouch didn't hold anything against him anymore. He was never very judgmental of his precious people. Quote:
When I said "memories", I was really talking about everything Lelouch gave her. But C.C. just doesn't seem to have all that much interest in world peace, except that it's what Lelouch wanted. C.C. is still immortal, and peace a fragile, fleeting thing that won't last forever. She will enjoy it while it lasts, but it's by far not the most important thing Lelouch gave her. Quote:
Still, it was a very random example for him to use. xD
__________________
|
|||
2009-02-12, 12:19 | Link #2035 | ||
~Hi -mi- tsu des~
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canada
Age: 39
|
Quote:
Quote:
Again the likes of Joker and Lex Luthor are fictional characters, they are not written in a manner that would change their ways, infact the Joker is portrayed the way he is for a very specific reason in relations to Batman. How does this relate to Rolo again? Well it is because simply that Rolo has been shown to be changing, I'd agree about how he did not have a moral compass with which to judge his actions upon and that, again, is the result of his upbringing. But the matter of fact is that he has been shown to slowly change from that because of Lelouch, whether it was intentional or not. Back to Character death, as I have stated it was a reply to your assertion that death is the end and that a living character can acomplish more then a dead one. I was asserting that in literature, if done well, the result is far from what you make it out to be. Did I say Shirley was handled well? Obviously not considering that I kept saying so. I was stating the fact that had it been handled well then her death would not have been a loss but a gain for her character. |
||
2009-02-12, 15:54 | Link #2036 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: U.S.A.
Age: 35
|
Quote:
But in regard to what you posted. You know what, I don't care if it was foreshadowed. And I'll also disagree with you that it was amply foreshadowed. Yes, we knew Shirley was going to play an important part in the story, but I don't think it necessarily meant she was going to die. I've seen much stronger hints of oncoming death in other literature. And even if it was foreshadowed to some degree the fact remains that Rolo f*cking killed her. And I don't care if you are a psychotic imp who can't be blamed because it was "how you were raised", you kill a character like that and your opinion is gonna go down. It's just inevitable. I mean really, O&T could have done any number of things so that it could've been nobody's fault (not directly anyway). Shirley could have been caught up in a KMF blast or accidentally shot at thinking to have been someone else. Instead they chose Rolo. God only knows why. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
2009-02-12, 16:17 | Link #2037 |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
|
Hm... I still think that R2 was simply too rushed, and that that's the only reason Shirley seemed to have been "forgotten" during the last few episodes. And even though I was rather fond of her myself, she's not the only character who had to put up with that. One of the more important ones, yes, but still one of many.
And I agree with the "death can be a gain for a character" thing, but it can be really hard to say when it's a gain and when it's a loss. Take Clovis, for example (yes, I'm indeed hopeless xD). He died so soon that many people missed the fact that he was supposed to have quite some depth. But at the same time, the irony and tragedy of it all becomes perfectly clear in the Sound Drama, and if you are a fangirl, you might very well have trouble to decide if you wish you'd seen more of him or if you are deliriously happy with what you got. It's more obvious with Lelouch (in my opinion). Or with Rolo - I adore him, but there was no way he could have stayed around for Zero Requiem. And just to make this a little less Off Topic... I guess a death will almost always be a loss when it comes to pairings. I mean, even if a character dies in his or her lover's arms, it's not exactly satisfying if it isn't Romeo and Juliet. And that reminds me of that one thing I always found curious about Clovis... he really seems like a ladies' man, but I don't see any woman in Code Geass that would go well with him. Maybe it's because deep in my heart, I believe that depending on the circumstances, he would always be too busy either being an indifferent bastard or annyoing his favourite little brother to do more than flirt casually with anyone. Oh well. xD
__________________
|
2009-02-12, 18:14 | Link #2038 | ||
~Hi -mi- tsu des~
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canada
Age: 39
|
Quote:
As I said before, she died metaphorically a number of times for Lelouch and because of Lelouch, either directly or indirectly. That was the way they practically set up her tragedy in relation to her feelings for Lelouch. The foreshadowing is still there, you can argue about whether or not it was as strong as something else you have read. Sure it does not hit you in the face like a ton of bricks but it lets you have that nagging feeling in the back of your mind as you watch it that it is likely to happen. Which is what foreshadowing does, it gives you an impression of a very real possibility but does not lock it into place. Back to Rolo, no, it is not justification to use your past as an excuse for the things you have done, nowhere did I say that. What is important is understanding the why and how of something. In Rolo's case, understanding why he does what he does and by extension understanding the role he was meant to play. There was a specific reason why he was used to kill Shirley. If you actually look at how his character was portrayed it should be fairly obvious. Shirley's death was meant to drive the plot to the next stage and by extension to drive Lelouch farther down the dark path. Her death was the device to farther Lelouch's development, Rolo was chosen because of the reasons I listed in my last post, as well as for the fact that Lelouch was the one that brought Rolo into his inner circle, therefore the choice puts more emotional stress onto Lelouch. With how they used Rolo in her death it linked several character points together as well as furthered the plot so it was for a very specific reason that they used Rolo and not just as on a whim as you make it out to be. Quote:
And Death being a "gain" as you put it is not something so new. Many works in literature uses it, many myths uses it as well. But what you have to look at is the big picture and not at that character specifically. A character gain importance in how much he or she influences the plot and characters, specifically the main character. Which as I already stated, for side characters like Shirley, death is almost like a shortcut to gaining more important depending on the ties they had before death and how it was handled. |
||
2009-02-12, 19:32 | Link #2039 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: U.S.A.
Age: 35
|
Quote:
Oh, and I'm the sure the whole "death as a gain" thing isn't new. The thought just never occurred to me. |
|
2009-02-12, 23:35 | Link #2040 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
|
yes many artist use death in the sense of martydom, and heroism is linked to death, but also cowardice is linked to death. Heroic militant dies fighting invading forces, fighting for his freedom, but that same militant can be seen as somebody who can't accept his reality, and knowing that in his death he may escape his fate. The only way to develop a clear picture is through writing, developing the characters, so their actions actually represent heart felt jestures, which the writers of this series neglected in r2, thats why all these supplemental materials are needed, because these guys did a sloppy job, I will tell you right now that episode 18 of clannad was picture perfect, it settled all the issues of the love polygon, through one action, Tomoya smacking some dude whos trying to help nagisa, now with literally 4x the episodes, some of the gestures in the romance are vague, why? Because the characters are not developed enough, the pyschy of the characters are not discussed, plus we have a monomaniacal unreliabale narrator, lelouch. Unfortunately this is not Moby Dick, where the unreliable narrator is intentional, the doubt created by the writers in not from purposely doing so, its through indecisive writing about the characters themselves, and their actions
|
|
|