The Shiho-Tate-Mai triangle, why Tate's an ass and why people hate Shiho

[M.I.P.]

First a brief history of Tate/Shiho. Tate and Shiho met when they were young and Tate was your bog standard annoying little boy. They both grew up became friends so forth and etcetera. Shiho for one reason or another fell in love with Tate and decided she was going to marry him. At no point did she hide her intentions to him. Tate for one reason or another neither rejected nor accepted her. Anyway at some point Tate became deviant and everybody thought he was even more of a jerk than he is now everyone that is accepts for Shiho. She stuck by him through those hard times and may have been responsible for his reform. At some point Tate meets Mai and decides he's warm for her form. He goes through the usual argle bargle of anime romance and ends up confessing his love leaving Shiho in the cold. Oh yes Shiho also repeatedly attempts to eliminate Mai albeit subconsciously.

Now as to why Tate is an ass if it hasn't already become apparent. Basically he led Shiho on by never at any point rejecting her. Now it's not certain how she'd have taken a rejection but I like to think that she'd have realised Tate had no affection for her and so even in the absence of Mai she'd stand no chance hence why bother trying to kill her. Now it's fair to say that never rejecting someone is a bit little for someone to be an object of hate but if we look again Tate was given a chance to put aside his debt to Shiho for sticking with him through the bad times, to put aside his guilt for allowing her to get hurt and to confess his feelings or lack thereof but what does he do he lies yet again and gives Shiho false hope. So in short Tate's a jerk IMO and has no redeeming qualities heck aside from being the OL Reito seemed a better match for Mai.

Now people hate Shiho because she's clingy and because they have an interest in Tate/Mai and Shiho's an obstacle. I believe I've shown that Shiho was the way she was only because Tate wouldn't be straight with her and led her to believe that she stood a chance.

The evidence is complete, I rest my case.

[Question]

We all know tate is a moron. When people complain about Shirou in fate/stay night i just point at tate.

I have seriously never seen or heard of such a clueless guy.

[M.I.P.]

That's the point. Why do people consider Shiho annoying when that state was brought about as a result of Tate's idiocy.

[NoSanninWa]

Shiho is annoying because she is annoying. Putting that aside... Yep, Tate's a jerk. I think it is pretty clear why he didn't ever turn down Shiho properly. If he turned her down he wouldn't have had a back-up girl. Or maybe he was just too much of a coward to risk Shiho being angry with him. He didn't even have the flaw of being undecided about his feelings for her. Either way, he's a jerk through and through.

It is a shame that Mai couldn't find a decent guy. One is a jerk and the other is a megalomaniac who wants to freeze her in crystal so he can live forever. Maybe now that Reito is exorcised of the OL he'll be able to win Mai back from that jerk Tate.

[y063banana71]

If the case is closed then there's not really much point in starting a thread is there?

I dont think Tate ever really saw her in that way, I mean she calls him her older-brother. And let's not forget Tate is always shutting Shiho down when she gets too clingy!
I think Tate never took the relationship seriously enough to say anything to her.

Shiho is annoying, let's not make excuses as to why.

[Sansana]

Thank gods that Tate was the main chara only in the Manga. Maybe he's not as annoying as Shirou from Fate but he's still so hopeless. While loving May he assured Shiho that he has some affection for her, and when those two were fighting each other he just stood and did nothing. He tormented those poor girls and tried to be 'cool', yuck. And lol, in some omake he admitted that he's intrested in Mai's breasts :P

I think that Reito would be a lot better for Mai. But I wonder why in some early episodes Tate stated that Reito and Shizuru are couple ?_?

As for Shiho I found her rather funny than annoying. And about her hostility towards Mai - I think it's one of the Hime curses. At the beginning she attacks her only when she's sleeping and she has no knowledge about this. She's kind hearted too - she gave Mikoto her icecreams XD

[Kleo Scanti]

Tate stated that Shizuru and Reito could be a great couple as both are elegant, popular and so on. And that some people believe they're a couple.

Speaking of Tate/Shiho/Mai triangle, I'd say that Tate is an idiot and Shiho is a spoiled kid, these two facts do not exclude each other. However, they're both not annoying enough for really being hated. Their motives are usually quite understandable.

[M.I.P.]

Originally Posted by y063banana71

If the case is closed then there's not really much point in starting a thread is there?

I dont think Tate ever really saw her in that way, I mean she calls him her older-brother. And let's not forget Tate is always shutting Shiho down when she gets too clingy!
I think Tate never took the relationship seriously enough to say anything to her.

Shiho is annoying, let's not make excuses as to why.

Firstly I starteed the thread because I want to see whether people agree with my reasoning. Convincing myself and convincing others are not the same thing.

Secondly if he never took it seriousley he should have rejected her instead he strung her along. I'm not seeing how this can be viewed in any type of positive light.

Shiho in and of herself isn't annoying during the wedding episode I found her alright if not enjoyable and that was one of the few episodes she wasn't worrying about losing Tate or winning his affections albeit because she had just been assured that her main rival would cease competing.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by M.I.P.

First a brief history of Tate/Shiho. Tate and Shiho met when they were young and Tate was your bog standard annoying little boy. They both grew up became friends so forth and etcetera.

i think you forgot to mention a big thing :
IIRC (it has been a while that i didn't watch MH), Yuuichi was in the kendo club. but for unknown reason, he got injured on his knee, and wasn't able to take part of the tournament (while he was the favourite).
due his inability to fight for his team, they lost, and he became the scapegoat.

since then, Yuuichi became a loner, and later a delinquent.
No one was around him, except shiho.

correct me if i'm wrong or i may be confused with some manga elements or else.

Shiho for one reason or another fell in love with Tate and decided she was going to marry him. At no point did she hide her intentions to him.

this depends of the point of view.
i beleive yuuichi considered shiho as a sister (and since she is always saying this, this doesn't improve anything), and he thought it was obvious for her too. thus, he either thought she was joking, or still threading some wild fantasies due her age (since she is his "sister", this prevents him to view her as a proper woman/young girl)
and actually, she get only serious for the romance only lately, when she was already crazy.

Tate for one reason or another neither rejected nor accepted her.
Anyway at some point Tate became deviant and everybody thought he was even more of a jerk than he is now everyone that is accepts for Shiho. She stuck by him through those hard times and may have been responsible for his reform.

because shiho was always there for him, even when he ditched her, or when he didn't pay attention to her.
still, he is an idiot because he still consider as a sister, and didn't really wonder why she was so persistant, so didn't discover there was something more... until it is too late.

Anyway at some point Tate became deviant and everybody thought he was even more of a jerk than he is now everyone that is accepts for Shiho. She stuck by him through those hard times and may have been responsible for his reform. At some point Tate meets Mai and decides he's warm for her form. He goes through the usual argle bargle of anime romance and ends up confessing his love leaving Shiho in the cold. Oh yes Shiho also repeatedly attempts to eliminate Mai albeit subconsciously.

he didn't have shiho in his mind, thus he didn't noticed (especially that shiho madness was well hidden)
but this is where i believe it is shiho's fault : she didn't admit it, and she didn't consider that Yuuichi doesn't see in her anything else than a sister.
i don't think it would be Yuuichi's fault for not reject her, since the case was UTTERLY obvious.

Now as to why Tate is an ass if it hasn't already become apparent. Basically he led Shiho on by never at any point rejecting her. Now it's not certain how she'd have taken a rejection but I like to think that she'd have realised Tate had no affection for her and so even in the absence of Mai she'd stand no chance hence why bother trying to kill her. Now it's fair to say that never rejecting someone is a bit little for someone to be an object of hate but if we look again Tate was given a chance to put aside his debt to Shiho for sticking with him through the bad times, to put aside his guilt for allowing her to get hurt and to confess his feelings or lack thereof but what does he do he lies yet again and gives Shiho false hope. So in short Tate's a jerk IMO and has no redeeming qualities heck aside from being the OL Reito seemed a better match for Mai.

the problem is merely his guilt, since he doesn't want to hurt neither of them.
therefor, he was stuck in a dilemna.

and guess what? he was doomed

Now people hate Shiho because she's clingy and because they have an interest in Tate/Mai and Shiho's an obstacle. I believe I've shown that Shiho was the way she was only because Tate wouldn't be straight with her and led her to believe that she stood a chance.

The evidence is complete, I rest my case.

well well, this reminds me a lot of the anime shuffle triangle (Rin/Asa/Kaede), though the setup are quite different, giving him much more good points than the later said ~~
I won't say Yuuichi is the perfect jerk, nor the saint, but in his case, things were out of control :
1) shiho, the one he consider as his sister, become crazy for oblivious reason, until the "kiss" part.until the VERY late part of the anime, Yuuichi was completely oblivious to shiho feelings
2) despite shisho's behaviour become erratic, he felt guilty once again, and couldn't think properly, since he knew it was his fault (kinda).
3) i don't think mai would be innocent here, since their relationship was horribly stalled by both of them, (especially mai, and her romance trip with Reito)

i think he is the basic "triangle male lead", with not enough options to deal with the major issues from the girls.
i don't really liked how he was undecisive when the mess starts, but the context toned down a bit his helplessness.

[Captain Picard]

I'm with NoSanninWa. Shiho was annoying because she was annoying. I don't really care whether or not Tate's a jerk or was rejecting/accepting her. Although I'm not defending Tate either - he's equally annoying.

I just realized, I love this show, yet I hate nearly every character in it. Odd. I only really liked Nao and Nagi.

[bl4xb0x]

There is no doubt about it, Shiho was annoying. Her obsession with Tate was blinding, really making her nothing but a revenge driven zombie, at least after ep 15. Tate, with his sheer stupidity did not make me like him more. It made me dislike him even worse when he kissed Shiho, giving her even more false hope, driving her revenge machine!

Man, if only they were a bit more rational, right?

[Zelene2004]

Originally Posted by Sansana

I think that Reito would be a lot better for Mai. But I wonder why in some early episodes Tate stated that Reito and Shizuru are couple ?_?

Actually, it was believed that Reito and Shizuru are indeed going out. You simply find out that they really aren't and it just speculation.

[Tempest35]

Tate Yuuichi was not an ass - if you want a true ass, look at Ishigami-san. Is he not more deserving of such a title?

I guess since I'm a self-proclaimed Tate supporter that I must say a few words in spike blonde's defense. I mean, it's so wonderful to see people bashing him because he was 'indecisive' with a little 13 year old girl who really didn't show up on his 'potential love' radar at all until she got hurt because he left her alone. Shiho's ALWAYS been there for him, whether he liked it or not. It was because she was there for him during a low point in his short life that he puts up with her so much. He's too nice to just brush her off and leave her alone - he'd never do that and not only would he hate himself but I bet that Mai would genuinely dislike him if he did that.
Hell, he even tried to 'suki' like her for a time but he couldn't. Is that worth bashing him over the head for - because he actually tried to feel something romantic for Shiho? Let's not forget that she played the guilt card on him in order to get him to kiss her while Mai was there and he was unaware of her presence.

For those who can't get over Mai picking Tate in the end, c'mon if he was AS BAD a JERK as some people try to say he is, do you really think that Mai would have given him the time of day after the boat incident? Sure, he was lacking in finding what his heart really wanted in terms of a relationship, but isn't everyone at some point in their life? He's only 15-16 at the most. It's not like he could have look up 'Dr. Phil' or somebody to get relationship pointers.

Reito might have been 'perfect' for Mai, but Reito was also 'perfect' for Shizuru too and we all know how that was just a front. In my opinion, Reito's too secretive for Mai - he's got a lot of faces that he puts to the world and Mai doesn't like dealing with that. Mai likes honest, upfront people ie. Natsuki, Mikoto, Tate, Chie & Aoi, etc.

I could have made my entry longer but I don't feel like including everything that I could have said so I'll elaborate if the need arises.

[M.I.P.]

Well Ishigami is worse I'll give you that but the point here is that rejecting Shiho's love would have done more good than harm.She wasn't capable of being her own person because Tate was her central focus. It's the same with Mai until Takumi displayed/demanded his independence she couldn't see herself as anything other than his carer. A rejection from Tate whilst unpleasant would have a similarly liberating effect. Nobody expected Tate to pick Shiho that's why it was so stupid for him to lead her on for so long.

[Tempest35]

Originally Posted by M.I.P.

Nobody expected Tate to pick Shiho that's why it was so stupid for him to lead her on for so long.

Ah, gotta love Sunrise Plot Devices. Granted, had Tate joined Mai's camp early on, it probably would have lead probably the matchup EVERYONE wanted to see - Mai (Kagutsuchi) vs Shizuru (Kiyohime) with Natsuki as the bystander to it.
But that's another thread...

Tate had enough reasons to pick Shiho and I'll try to hit on a few of them. And rejecting someone whom you see everyday, even on school holidays and such is a pretty big deal all on it's own.

As to why did Tate go with Shiho during that brief yet oh-so-crucial point - let's look at Mai as well. Mai, at that point, had done her fair share of trying to protect Tate from the Carnival aka brushing him off and telling him not to care about her - that she was fine all by herself, which Tate knew was a lie. It's not like he didn't try to understand Mai, but she kept pushing herself away from everyone, including Tate.

Mai didn't want/need Tate but Shiho did. Mai kept on trying to be strong on her own while Shiho constantly relied on him. For him, when Sears attacked and he walked in on the battlefield only to be saved by an irate Natsuki, he realized how weak he was and that he really couldn't help Mai the way he wanted or the way he thought he should help. Shiho ending up hurt was just the icing on the cake for his decision as to which girl he was going to put at the top of his priority list - Mai had Kagutsuchi was fine by herself but Shiho could still get hurt.

Yuuichi just went with the woman he thought needed him the most. He was going to be there for Shiho, even if it costed him a relationship with Mai. Some might call that 'stupid' but I don't. Was he leading Shiho on? In the end, yes he was, even if he did not realize it but that doesn't make him an ass or stupid for it. He himself realized it in the end when he said, "It's all my fault'". In the end he 'died' for it. He's got another chance and he's going to try and do his best but no, he's not gonna be perfect about it. That's what will make Tate/Mai such a good relationship.

[Question]

Ishigami was just a normal villain who for SOME reason yukariko still manages to fall in love with.

Tate as the male lead has higher standards to aspire to.

[M.I.P.]

Originally Posted by Tempest35

>Message<

I see what you're saying but it seems the gist of it is that Tate wanted to be helpful so he stuck with the person he could help. Fair and fine but one can be there for someone without being their partner. He was already fulfilling the role of a friend/big brother there was no reason for him to lead Shiho to believe that it would evolve beyond that point. Anyway it's not like Shiho was helpless. She would have awoken her Hime powers at some point and where would that have left Tate. With nobody needing him as their protector. Seems to me Tate simply likes to wear the pants. You can be in a relationship with someone without them being dependent on you for anything(in this case protection)

My point here is simply that Tate's actions led to Shiho's annoyingness and thus the hatred for her is not justified.

[Yazakura]

Shiho and Tate were both asses. Mainly because A: Shiho was just there for no purpose other than to annoy the crap out of people, and Tate for being the king of perverts.

[Honey_and_Cleaver]

Shiho and Tate are okay. Tate truly likes Mai, but Shiho gets in his way. Mai however likes Raito but then Mikoto likes Mai. Tate doesnt want to hurt Shiho however Mai doesnt want to hurt Tate. So nothing wrong.

Whats wrong is Sergei Wang, being the king of perverts who fall in love with his adopted daughter. This guy is a sick idiot, Nagi should have finished him off.

M.I.P, i plainly state, that your reasoning is unconvincing therefore i disagree.

[OverMaster]

Originally Posted by M.I.P.

Anyway it's not like Shiho was helpless. She would have awoken her Hime powers at some point and where would that have left Tate. With nobody needing him as their protector. Seems to me Tate simply likes to wear the pants. You can be in a relationship with someone without them being dependent on you for anything(in this case protection)

My point here is simply that Tate's actions led to Shiho's annoyingness and thus the hatred for her is not justified.

The problem there is that Tate had absolutely no idea Shiho had any HiME powers to defend herself.

Now, I like Shiho a lot, and she is my second favorite HiME character after Haruka, but she brought a lot of her own pain on herself.

It's funny to consider, though, what would have happened if Tate had returned Shiho's feelings from the start? Would it have led to a repeat of the Akane/Kazuya situation? Would Mai have fallen harder for Reito/Obsidian Prince? In that case, how would that have affected the story's outcome?