2009-06-12, 00:10 | Link #41 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||||
2009-06-12, 02:10 | Link #42 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Detroit, MI
|
Quote:
|
|
2009-06-12, 12:05 | Link #43 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
To go back to Vexx's point about (mis)information about the healthcare system in Canada, here's an article from the Denver Post that tackles a lot of the commonly held myths: http://www.denverpost.com/portal/opinion/ci_12523427. I'm going to post the whole thing since it seems so germane to the discussion (emphasis mine):
Debunking Canadian health care myths By Rhonda Hackett Posted: 06/07/2009 01:00:00 AM MDT Spoiler for Denver Post:
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2009-06-12, 15:51 | Link #45 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Detroit, MI
|
Quote:
Personally I find articles like this or this are a bit more accurate as to wait times. They all know nobody is going to like waiting so this is one of the big ones they try to sweep under the rug. |
|
2009-06-12, 16:20 | Link #46 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
|
And I'll say again... been to an HMO lately? Tried to get an appointment?
---> Wait times of two weeks or more for routine GP appointments. Specialist appointments can take several months. The "wait time" bogey is a canard. We *already have* the same level of wait time. We also have a triage system of "more urgent gets in front" but its diluted by "most wealthy goes first and gets best" .. and of course, those without insurance simply get nada and those with insurance get financially bankrupted by "out of pocket costs". Also, the article did point out that rural areas have significant wait times in Canada (just like in the US). My wife had to have some minor surgery last year to stop a problem that was "reducing her quality of life significantly" ... we have one of the best HMOs in the country --- she had to wait over 3 months (14 weeks). Anecdotal, yes.... but reflective of the system as it is currently. Of course, if you're wealthy this is not a problem. Anyone making less than, say, $400K a year isn't wealthy. I also note the source of the information for those articles says this: Quote:
Sounds more like a vendor with a product trying to force-fit it onto the problem
__________________
Last edited by Vexx; 2009-06-12 at 16:36. |
|
2009-06-12, 16:48 | Link #47 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Detroit, MI
|
Quote:
About that edit you made, I suspect it was referring to something like this. Last edited by Zippicus; 2009-06-12 at 16:51. Reason: editing while replying :p |
|
2009-06-12, 17:02 | Link #48 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
- they weren't long enough to make it worse than in the US, - for the most part, they weren't long enough to endanger the patients. |
|
2009-06-12, 21:06 | Link #50 |
Gregory House
IT Support
|
I still can't believe there's people who support the idea of getting indebted for life in order to save yourself from a problem you're very likely not to blame for in the first place.
Especially since the idea of a society implies the idea that we're not here just to fend off for ourselves individually. But what do I know, I'm a pinko commie bastard.
__________________
|
2009-06-13, 00:51 | Link #51 | |||
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
|
Quote:
It is fine to have subsidised healthcare, but free or semi-free healthcare is going overboard when it eats extensively into the nation's reserves. Quote:
Quote:
It is just an ideology and not equivalent to anything. There is something called the freedom of thought.
__________________
|
|||
2009-06-13, 01:57 | Link #52 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
|
No one is saying healthcare is free, nice try to over-simplify the situation. Really, the only people I hear using that phrase are insurance industry lobbyists and the politicians they own trying to smear proposed solutions.
... Healthcare analysts *are* saying that many can't afford it and that the results of that still cost everyone a lot more money than if we managed the situation. They're also pointing out that even those who do have insurance often discover that their plans are nimble in avoiding paying for illness. People *WITH* health insurance are also not getting cared for. Their health insurance skips around, runs with loopholes, denies claims just to delay payment, refuses to cover best practices treatment, drops you. Once you are dropped, others deny you coverage. My wife (pharmacist) deals with patients everyday who have to decide between dying or bankrupting their family because the insurance company ran like a rabbit. A huge part of the cost of operations where she works is just dealing with the several hundred different insurance companies that directly interfere with formulary and treatment decisions of the medical team. The status quo is broken... we're past that argument. How about some proposals for fixing it rather than just yelling "she's a witch", eh? And iLney, you've demonstrated in multiple posts that you don't even understand how the current system works, so your credibility is about zero when it comes to shooting at proposals with poorly articulated economic ideology.
__________________
Last edited by Vexx; 2009-06-13 at 02:42. |
2009-06-13, 02:10 | Link #53 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Detroit, MI
|
I think the biggest problem is the over inflated health care costs due to insurance companies and government imposed insurance regulations. Insurance is basically a system imposed that allows costs to exceed the means of the individual users.
Assume for a moment a world where insurance didn't exist, nothing could cost more than people were able to pay, well it could but it wouldn't be able to sustain itself. Once that artificial system collapsed health care costs would have to drop down to reasonable levels. |
2009-06-13, 02:22 | Link #54 | ||
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
|
Quote:
Ok, not all medical conditions are the same. Further, for a lot of conditions, the earlier you catch it, the quicker, cheaper, and easy it is to treat. Preventitive care is more likely to catch these problems early. Some medical conditions, if caught early require only a visit to the doctor to diagnose and medication to treat it, however, if left to progress may require far more intensive, and far more expensive treatment later. Take atherosclerosis. If caught early enough it can be treated by medication, while if left untreated it can result in a heart attack and may require bypass surgery, while still requiring those same medications after that surgery. This is an added cost to the system and added man hours spent by doctors in treating the condition in a later stage. Further, a condition caught in the early stages is less likely to cause a signifigant loss of productivity on the part of the patent, which means he keeps working rather than being in a hospital, pumping more money into the economy. What universial healthcare does is shift the focus on healthcare away from the more expensive treatments for diseases further along in their progression and more towards preventing them entirely or treating them as soon as possible, which in either case is going to be more expensive. Thus, a system that encourages preventitive care and makes it accessible to everyone will be cheaper in the long run. We are not talking about some theoritical system that has never been tried. We're talking about a system used in most European nations that has proven itself cheaper and more effective than the failed for profit system in the US. No, it isn't perfect in those countries, but it works a lot better than the US system. Also your whole supply and demand concept is being falsely applied. You're assuming all patients require the same man hours and cost for the doctor regardless of their condition. In fact, more severe conditions are going to require a lot more time on the part of a doctor and use a lot more resources than a patient coming in for a check up. Quote:
__________________
|
||
2009-06-13, 02:28 | Link #55 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
|
Quote:
The point of having insurance would be to have a bed to cushion a serious fall that can debilitate or disable a person permanently. The money may not be able to get the body part / life back, but it could be a consolation to the rest of the family members.
__________________
|
|
2009-06-13, 02:44 | Link #56 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Detroit, MI
|
Quote:
I understand the desire to have a sense of security for any possible situation that arises, but it's way beyond that at this point. |
|
2009-06-13, 02:47 | Link #57 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
|
Frankly, I'm almost old enough to remember that world that Zippicus postulates .... a "no-insurance" model or at least one where "insurance" was purely for disaster situations (the ones that bankrupt people). It was fairly workable (though the safety net of Medicaid at the bottom was set pretty low and still is). And believe it or not... we had many doctors and surgeons then who happily entered the profession anyway. They also weren't getting gouged to hell and back by insurance companies selling malpractice (yes, I'm for tort reform if the professions will self-police as they're supposed to). Much of that hideous charge for a broken bone goes to ---> the insurance company who charges the doctor up the ass for liability and malpractice insurance.
Its how to *get* there from the current horribly bloated situation that would be the difficulty. The insurance companies are very comfortably fat leeching the system as it is. Big pharma has gotten bloated -- spending almost as much on advertising as they do on research (count the pharma ads... why the hell do we *have* pharma ads? No, I know the answer and it isn't pretty). They wouldn't like it either.
__________________
|
2009-06-13, 02:55 | Link #58 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Detroit, MI
|
Quote:
I agree that the difficulty is damn near insurmountable at this point. That doesn't make any of the proposed solutions any easier to swallow though either. |
|
2009-06-13, 11:26 | Link #59 |
Rawrrr!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: CH aka Chocaholic Heaven
Age: 40
|
Limits of the private system (Swiss example)
Here in Switzerland our situation is quite different from large countries like USA or Canada: as the country is small, there are no area that really qualify as "isolated and devoid of doctors", also the greying of our population might be more pronounced already.
But we share a federal system, with a traditional "less-state" attitude tinged with european social-democracy. For us and since 1994 (IIRC), suscribing an health insurance is MANDATORY for every resident. Those are private companies, and we probably have like a dozen or two in a country with 7 millions inhabitants ( but we are quite fond of insurances here). The advocated system is mostly free-competition between the companies to grab customers, so they are quite service oriented. At the end of each years the insurance premiums for the next year are announced, and you are free to change your insurance company. Premiums are mostly determined by which demographic you belong to, and your past health expenses. Depending on your revenue or precarious financial situation, you might qualify for a subside granted by your State to pay your premiums (That's the social-democratic part). Now the downside of the system is that premiums keep rising since the system was inaugurated (we were announced a +15% rise for the year 2010...), because the law ask the companies to have huge reserves (which the financial crisis harmed), and also because the cost keep rising. Rise in costs is part because of our graying population, part because of new health-consumers behavior, part because of medication becoming more and more expensive (Drug companies which are major industries here play a part).
__________________
|
2009-06-13, 15:44 | Link #60 | ||
Gregory House
IT Support
|
Quote:
It's the same reason why it's important to have public education, public services and public transport facilities. In this example, I can quote both my own country and a neighboring country, Chile. Luckily enough, we still haven't lost public education, but its quality has lowered so much through the years that it almost seems as we have. Chile, on the other hand, had a much tougher time through the military dictatorship of that son of a bitch, Pinochet, and they lost *every public service*--no public education, no public transport, no public health. International corporations make a lot of money off it, but the general Chilean population... *shrugh*. There's still a sizeable amount of the population that keeps on ignoring the insane violations to human rights during Pinochet's dictatorship, and how his legacy is slowly leading half the country to its doom. Over here, the loss of public services has impacted our country very badly. What wasn't done in the 70s was achieved in the 90s. Our country is now a disaster in terms of services, both private (in the hands of international corporations) and the few public ones still in the hands of the government (which obviously does nothing about it and keeps on selling itself to its corporate overlords). Public healthcare sucks, and I've been practically forced to get an insurance. And the saddest part is, a lot of people can't have access to both private education and healthcare, and that starts a feedback loop that keeps them in poverty for the rest of their life, and probably their offspring's. That's a nice project of a country, right there. Quote:
__________________
|
||
Tags |
health, healthcare |
|
|