[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Good question. I wish i had a good answer but the best I can come up with is that he limited himself to edit Japanese mistakes since he apparently couldn't edit the plot since he didn't know where the story was going...

Well, he can always suggest this scene or that scene doesn't seem to work right, but then all Ryukishi has to say is "Well it makes sense in the grand scheme of things, so we can't change this or that aspect of the scene." And if the guy doesn't know all the details, how is he going to argue?

It doesn't really sit right to me. When I ask someone to edit my works I pretty much pour out all the background details ASAP so they know exactly what everything is founded upon.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, he can always suggest this scene or that scene doesn't seem to work right, but then all Ryukishi has to say is "Well it makes sense in the grand scheme of things, so we can't change this or that aspect of the scene." And if the guy doesn't know all the details, how is he going to argue?

It doesn't really sit right to me. When I ask someone to edit my works I pretty much pour out all the background details ASAP so they know exactly what everything is founded upon.

Exactly. At best he can play the role of 'first reader'. In short, by his own impressions and thoughts Ryukishi can vaguely check how the story would be understood by readers (vaguely because 1 person can't really represent that many readers).
However maybe having an editor that doesn't know where your story is heading is common in the Japanese world? Especially considering Umineko is a multipart story those plot ended up being changed on the way? (okay, so maybe it was just Land being removed in favour of Banquet... still I think this could have affected the hints given and therefore the readers understanding of the plot...)

[Used Can]

I'll take this interview as some elaborate troll from R07 and this "editor," because there's far too much nonsense there.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I'll take this interview as some elaborate troll from R07 and this "editor," because there's far too much nonsense there.

That has to be the case because there's no way in hell an Editor actually touched Umineko.

There is just no fucking way.

[Sherringford]

I got it. His editor is actually his second personality. See, it still counts as another person reading his work because they have different names. (The joke sounded much funnier in my head)

[AuraTwilight]

If you have love, you don't need proofreading.

[Wanderer]

So Battler-Touya was out at sea for years huh? Well, I'll just assume he landed and was discovered later. The hell was Battler-Touya doing for those years? Anyway, if he met Ikuko that much later then Ikuko=Yasu is pretty strong.

I don't think Beatrice jumping from the boat is a literal suicide by Yasu. As I've said before, and the interview mentions this also, Beatrice is the Witch of Rokkenjima. She can't leave the island.

I'm even wondering if the whole love story was actually resolved much later than 1986 in a kind of strange back and forth between Touya's and Ikuko's respective memories and writing.

[Renall]

Perhaps he was "at sea," as in a sailor. On Cap'n Erika's ship of the damned.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Renall

Perhaps he was "at sea," as in a sailor. On Cap'n Erika's ship of the damned.

Would pay to read this.

[battle22]

Guy's in EP3 2nd twilight (Maria and Rosa in the rose garden)
"Earth to earth. ......No falsehoods in their final moments as told."
Yasu is the only possible culprit here right?
6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
Also Shannon and Kanon are dead ,It doesn't mean yasu is dead too right?
Since she can revive and kill shannon and kanon. and i haven't read ep8 yet so please tell me if there's a red saying that yasu is not the culprit.
However It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!! so yasu is not the culprit? or shannon and kanon can't be the culprit's but yasu can ,becouse she's not a servant ?
PS.SORRY IF I DIDN"T MAKE ANY SENSE.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Well, "No falsehoods in their deaths" is an idiotic thing for Will to state about these scenes. In Rosa/Maria's case they where killed by Eva Beatrice, but the one that actually kills her the last time was Beatrice. So interpreting this is kinda hard! Did Eva think she actually killed them and Yasu finished them off for good?

Also, anything with Shannon and Kanon usually involves shenanigans to sidestep reds. Also "Yasu" is the almost definite culprit in the stories. If there is someone behind the scenes and manipulating things its still in the catbox.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by battle22

Guy's in EP3 2nd twilight (Maria and Rosa in the rose garden)
"Earth to earth. ......No falsehoods in their final moments as told."
Yasu is the only possible culprit here right?
6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
Also Shannon and Kanon are dead ,It doesn't mean yasu is dead too right?
Since she can revive and kill shannon and kanon. and i haven't read ep8 yet so please tell me if there's a red saying that yasu is not the culprit.
However It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!! so yasu is not the culprit? or shannon and kanon can't be the culprit's but yasu can ,becouse she's not a servant ?
PS.SORRY IF I DIDN"T MAKE ANY SENSE.

Besides Yasu, Rudolf and Eva don't have alibis either, and since Maria and Rosa weren't said to have been killed by the same people, either of them could have killed the other as well. You also have little details like the victims not being staked and the gun being left behind which suggest that this wasn't a normal twilight murder. We at least know that Eva snuck out of her room and arranged a false alibi with Hideyoshi, so you have to account for that as well.

There's a couple of different scenarios you can build. Here's one where Eva is innocent:

Maria has been told to lure Rosa out to the garden for a meeting with Beatrice. Not realizing this, Rosa tries to pretend she's been possessed by Beatrice so she can extract information. Maria is fooled for a moment, but then she sees through it and flips out. Rosa starts to strangle her in a fit of rage. At that moment, Yasu arrives for the meeting, sees what's happening, and runs over to save Maria. In the ensuing struggle, she accidentally pushes Rosa onto the fence and kills her. She flees in despair after realizing that Maria is already dead. A short time later, Eva sneaks out of her room to discuss the gold with Rosa and discovers both of the corpses. Now she doesn't have an alibi for their deaths, so she runs back to the guesthouse and explains everything to Hideyoshi, who agrees to cover for her.

You can make another where Maria just wanted to see the rose, and Eva is the one who tries to stop the strangling. In that scenario, Yasu doesn't enter the situation at all.

[Renall]

The red evasion is basically bullshit and allows Ryukishi to make definitive statements that are, in fact, completely without any merit or use.

For example, Shannon and Kanon can be dead and Yasu can be alive. No, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Yes, it completely exists solely to evade the red (i.e. it's cheating for the sake of cheating, not because Yasu actually needs them to be "dead"). You got taken for a ride, as we all did, by authorial dishonesty. Guess we just gotta deal.

By the same logic, Beatrice isn't a servant, because Beatrice is a witch. But Shannon and Kanon are and she's them! Don't matter. But Yasu arguably is and she's all of them! Don't matter (and Ryukishi probably doesn't define Yasu as a servant; indeed, what defines one as a servant in the first place is left undefined anyway).

It's kind of sad that "Eva stops Rosa from strangling Maria and accidentally kills her" is a better, more reasonable, justifiable, and less red-evasive solution to that murder than the one that was apparently intended.

[battle22]

Thanks guy's .
and there's only 1 culprit right?
also why do you think eva shoted battler?
meaby she tought he was the culprit? or wen't completly insane
PS.sorry for the spelling error's

[Cao Ni Ma]

Well, the way I call it, the "Desired" culprit is Yasu. He/she is the one that fits in all the positions in just about every episode and he/she wants to be the culprit as well. Each chapter has accomplices or "Obvious" culprits depending on how you see things. Eva in EP3, Rosa in EP2, Natsuhi in EP5 (Battler/Beatrice are the desired culprits here), Kyrie/Rudolph in EP7s Tea Party.

We can interpret the obvious culprits or accomplices in a negative light (by judging them guilty of the things) or in a positive light (by keeping them in benevolent position). There's also a possibility that there is some sort of mastermind thats controlling things and Battler might be subconsciously alluding to them in the story. Trying to find them and then hiding them after EP5.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Well, the way I call it, the "Desired" culprit is Yasu. He/she is the one that fits in all the positions in just about every episode and he/she wants to be the culprit as well. Each chapter has accomplices or "Obvious" culprits depending on how you see things. Eva in EP3, Rosa in EP2, Natsuhi in EP5 (Battler/Beatrice are the desired culprits here), Kyrie/Rudolph in EP7s Tea Party.

We can interpret the obvious culprits or accomplices in a negative light (by judging them guilty of the things) or in a positive light (by keeping them in benevolent position). There's also a possibility that there is some sort of mastermind thats controlling things and Battler might be subconsciously alluding to them in the story. Trying to find them and then hiding them after EP5.

By the way, was just thinking about this...

Yasu cannot be the sole culprit if what was said at the end of EP7 is true. Remember how Lion was brought back to his world on the same night, and the murder spree was already under way? Bernkastel seemed to imply that even if Yasu was not an active agent, things would devolve into mass murder regardless.

Of course, Bernkastel could be just making stuff up, but it's more likely that she wields the truth to hurt people. She and Lambda like to do that sort of thing.

If it is to be believed then is the mass murder spree only a function of the various sibling conspiracies? Or is there one more conspiracy/faction we haven't figured out yet? Or some other new interaction that's guaranteed to happen as a result of removing Yasu/Lion's influence?

(Fat George should have no reason to murder as he's not going to marry Lion. We hope. Same with Jessica, although... we still really know nothing about her, right?)


Yasu's attitude with her plan to murder everyone depends on how much she saw this coming. If it was coming anyways then she's the one who co-opted the real murder spree for her own purposes, despite not being able to alter the outcome.

[Kylon99]

By the way, the one who was interviewing Ryukishi in May was:

Oota Katsushi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katsushi_%C5%8Cta

He's an editor for Kodansha, not Ryukishi's editor. Unfortunately. Not sure how he's related to Ryukishi, but it's probably for something like the interview itself for a magazine. (Square Enix published the manga, not Kodansha, so it's not that. I just grabbed a few off the shelf to check just now.)

Of course the real problem is Ryukishi not having an editor. 8) ... Although, does he have one for Higabana? I sure hope so...

[Cao Ni Ma]

Well Battler didnt go the meeting, George has no reason since there would be no love. Same with Jessica. Beatrice in general doesn't exist, so how would this affect Maria? She'd still have her god complex going on but there really isn't a way for her to do any of this in this situation. So that leaves the adults with their problems. Then again, George would be a fat rejected bastard with some misogynistic ideas so I dont know!

But really, the kids probably have the most of their world view altered by not having Yasu there. Specifically George and Maria. In Maria's case, she's never tried to answer the riddle before right? She mentions in one point in EP2 that she has no reason to do it, because she wants the doors to the golden land to open. But without Beatrice in her world would she feel challenged by it and try to solve it? I dont think Bern mentioned the kids trying to solve it, just the adults.

Anyways, the whole scene in EP7 felt forced. The moment they started mentioning that their predicament was straight out of a mystery novel sent flags flying everywhere. Will using his laws and them not having any effect reinforced that idea. But Berns truth at the end...was there a trick in the original japanese version that she could have altered the last words to state it as a negative?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Well Battler didnt go the meeting, George has no reason since there would be no love. Same with Jessica. Beatrice in general doesn't exist, so how would this affect Maria? She'd still have her god complex going on but there really isn't a way for her to do any of this in this situation. So that leaves the adults with their problems. Then again, George would be a fat rejected bastard with some misogynistic ideas so I dont know!

There's no reason to necessarily believe George or Jessica would've had a motive that was Yasu-centric at all, if they somehow were involved in things. Actually, they sort of are given motive independent of that, although it seems highly questionable that the motive would lead to murder in either case.

[Kylon99]

Hmmm.. thinking about it further... it could just be Bern's opinion that Kyrie would have murdered everyone regardless. But why those dates, specifically?

If Kyrie did act as she was portrayed by Bern, then it would have something to do with the reveal of the gold and something that deals with murder, like the revelation of the guns or something to do with Kinzo's body. Maybe it's the last one, a problem which would've come to a head by the second family meeting after Kinzo's death anyways.

So the question is, is Kinzo's death a consistent trigger for Kyrie or something else... hmm...


Something just strikes me as missing. I read that excerpt that Lyrical posted and I was most surprised that he is still holding back something when talking about Beatrice's motives.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Renall

There's no reason to necessarily believe George or Jessica would've had a motive that was Yasu-centric at all, if they somehow were involved in things. Actually, they sort of are given motive independent of that, although it seems highly questionable that the motive would lead to murder in either case.

Yah, speaking of which... doesn't it strike anyone else as strange that we still don't really know that much about George or Jessica?