2010-02-07, 16:10 | Link #1421 | |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
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You could also say that at that age, you don't really know your "type". You know what type of boys/girls you're friends with, but that won't always determine what type of people you'll actually like in "that way". Plus it's very possible to have a crush on (or maybe fall in love with) somebody that you don't think is your "type", and conversely also to be good friends with somebody of your "type" but not be in love with them, no matter what your age.
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2010-02-07, 17:03 | Link #1422 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Ah, thank you. I guess I was fairly accurate with the translation except for a few parts which I completely fucked up.
I know that Kanon didn't start working there until 3 years before 1986 but could Battler have met with Kanon somehow six years ago?
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2010-02-07, 18:09 | Link #1423 |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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Dante goes off on his crusade and returns only to find a dead Beatrice, one he has lied to and he cannot remember his transgressions, supposedly. The relations between Dante's Inferno and Umineko are beyond astonishing, Battler even wears the colors of the Crusade.
I would believe the heroic crap is what we would think a Knight would say and such I would believe the creator of Beatrice is a girl. Even if Shkanon is true, Shanon could just be a really flat chested girl. Which makes sense if Beatrice is everything she is not that Battler likes. Ssol - On your Asumu theory, I didn't read through it all because it was long as shit but would you explain the part to me where Asumu does not count towards the person limit. Also, Culprit: a person or other agent guilty of or responsible for an offense or fault. If you arranged for someone to be kill then you are still a culprit. Asumu is mentioned in the beginning of the story but is never seen. Also, no one is ignoring that Rudolph is a cheat. If I recall correctly, Asumu and Kyrie were both due to give birth on the same day? That's just accepting who Rudolph is. Finally, your number/math-play is cool and everything but it is a very well known fact that you can manipulate any numbers in math to get an answer like that. I would be willing to bet that 07151129 are the exact numbers meant to figure out the meaning of something. Furthermore, I don't know if this would be a mere coincidence but the safety deposit that number was connected to was worth millions and there were more than one of those. Is there a reason Asumu would have millions? I don't see your theory as impossible but it is more holy than the Pope. My number play: Let's go to the last part first. 1+2+9=3 & 9 = 3/9 = my birthday. 07 is obviously refers to Ryukishi. and 151... this cannot be more obvious, the answer is Mew the 151st pokemon. So, Ryukishi has figured out that I have a legitimate Mew in my Pokemon Blue Version. Well played Ryukishi. Last edited by Smeckledorf; 2010-02-07 at 18:34. |
2010-02-07, 18:49 | Link #1424 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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This is the wrong thread to discuss that theory, I'll answer in the speculations thread.
The response is now posted HERE. Please read the theory before posting useless nonsense. I don't think the theory is perfect but it's clear that your intent was to mock something you did not even try to understand.
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Last edited by luckyssol; 2010-02-07 at 19:12. |
2010-02-08, 13:45 | Link #1426 | ||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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And it goes without saying that this story is a lot different for any canonical mystery story in that it can show you scenes that are not real at all even without any previous hint (Natsuhi talking to Kinzo in EP1). Quote:
1) Battler's crush on Shannon wasn't a serious thing. Maybe it happened in 1979 and then he totally forgot it by 1980. 2) Battler's lied to Shannon because he didn't want to out himself. 3) He didn't know he was talking to Shannon. Shannon is Kinzo's furniture and "furniture" so far has been a way to name imaginary being that do not exist. If Shannon is furniture then she doesn't exist as well, she's just a fake personality. During that cutscene she was talking to Battler as her true self. Quote:
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I present these red texts: Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse. From 1:00 AM to 3:00 AM, Erika, Nanjo, and Gohda spent their time in the lounge on the first floor of the guesthouse. It was impossible to reach the second floor of the guesthouse without passing through the lounge, and impossible to reach it at all without Erika, who was in the lounge, knowing about it. Eva's seal was of the same type as <Miss> Erika's. That is because this method of sealing was one that <Miss> Erika and Eva conceived of together after DINNER. As the detective, <Miss> Erika sealed all ENTRANCES. I don't think I need to add more to prove that this Erika must be a living being. Surely a dead body wouldn't travel around that much and he couldn't conceive or seal anything.
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2010-02-08, 14:32 | Link #1427 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Names can be titles. Battler said as much and Beatrice never countered it save in very specific instances.
It is never stated whether a name can be taken by someone without their awareness of it. Obviously if someone is actively calling himself Kanon, he is "claiming" the name, but what if the name is "given" to him by the Game Master's construction of events? Example: Say that in some game, Kinzo appeared and killed a bunch of people. It was later revealed that it was Rudolf who did all the things Kinzo did in that game. If we were analyzing it, we'd say "Rudolf is 'Kinzo.'" Of course, Rudolf isn't really Kinzo, and he never once pretended he was. But the GM sort of made him "Kinzo" for the story. By that reasoning, "Erika" would be "the person depicted as Erika who did all the things that Erika did." However I don't believe in an "Erika ball" that can be passed around like some people apparently do because in ep6 it says only "the person [herself]" can claim Erika's name. That I think would restrict a nonexistent "Erika's" actions to a single person. ...Battler? If Erika never exists, then either Battler is alone when he solves the epitaph or someone is with him. Yet no one suggests the other person should be the family head. This would seem to restrict a nonexistent "Erika" title to Battler, a servant, or Dr. Nanjo. Last edited by Renall; 2010-02-08 at 14:47. |
2010-02-08, 15:49 | Link #1429 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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If Eva solved the epitaph along with Battler, there is no way she would agree readily to making him the family head. The text about the seals also suggests that Eva's seals were identical to Erika's, which insinuates that "Erika" can't be Eva, because the people who made the seals were "Erika and Eva." It wouldn't make a lot of sense to refer to the same person twice, even if Eva did seem to come up with the idea for the seals.
Kyrie, I don't know. In that case, passing the headship to Battler would make sense as she's not a member of the family by blood but Battler is. |
2010-02-08, 15:57 | Link #1430 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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2010-02-08, 16:56 | Link #1431 | |||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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I am the Golden Witch Beatrice. And I opened this game in order to fight with Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandson, Ushiromiya Battler. Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu. My name is Ushiromiya Battler. You [Battler] are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son. The envelope which I [Beatrice] gave to Maria, and the one Rosa opened are the same envelope!! You [Battler] were in the cousins' room and confirmed the presence of the bodies, which could not be misidentified…! Based on that evidence, the following things have been demonstrated: - A name may refer to multiple people. - A name may refer to both a piece and a meta character. - A piece's actions may be attributed to the player of the piece. Have you ever played a video game, say, Super Mario, and said something like "I got killed by a Goomba"? I propose that the name "Erika" refers both to Piece Erika, who is dead at the start of all games, and Meta Erika, who appears in the meta world. Meta Erika had control over a detective piece in Episode 5 and a culprit piece in Episode 6. Therefore, it is allowed for actions taken by those pieces to be attributed to Erika as their player. This is not in violation of the red that all names belong only to the actual people, because Meta Erika's name is legitimately "Erika". Quote:
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2010-02-08, 17:10 | Link #1432 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.
"Erika" probably would therefore not be George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, or Kumasawa. Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall. "Erika" would not be Krauss, Natsuhi, or Genji. Note that "all others" does not say who is in the dining hall. By process of elimination we are led to believe that Battler, Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rosa, Shannon, and Kanon are in the dining hall. If one of them is "Erika," that is not true. At 24:00, except for Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the second floor corridor and all of the people in the dining hall, no humans existed inside the mansion. Again, no mention of this. Not a single person in the dining hall...no, there's a simpler way to say it. Among all those inside the mansion at 24:00, not a single person placed that letter in the corridor. Someone who was shown "in the dining hall" was "Erika" and was not in the mansion at 24:00. They placed the letter, or else came back with it later. In addition to Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji, none of those in the dining hall made the knock. "Erika" was not in the dining hall. From 1:00 AM to 3:00 AM, Erika, Nanjo, and Gohda spent their time in the lounge on the first floor of the guesthouse. Therefore, during their entire meeting in the lounge, only Rosa went up to the second floor! Both your seal and your red truth are perfect. Nanjo had the alibi of being with Erika until 3:00 AM. And he didn't leave his room after 3:00 AM until morning. Erika was with Nanjo the whole time until 3:00 AM. Also, Rosa is probably not "Erika." "Erika" was with someone else. Gohda and Nanjo would have confirmed that this person was with them, but Lambda altered the story so they were with Erika instead of "Erika," and placed whoever "Erika" is in the dining room where they were not present. Eva's seal was of the same type as <Miss> Erika's. That is because this method of sealing was one that <Miss> Erika and Eva conceived of together after DINNER. Eva is not "Erika," but Eva worked together with "Erika." Furudo Erika is the detective in this game, not me!! Whoever is "Erika" is the detective, and Battler is not. Alternately, Meta-Erika is the detective and no one else is. This would suggest Battler isn't "Erika" either though. So who is left? Rudolf, Kyrie, Hideyoshi, Shannon, and Kanon EDIT: I just blew my own damn mind. Point: The rescuer is defined as the person who reset the chain lock after Battler unset it. Let us set aside the question of whether the rescue was intentional. At the time Battler was rescued, the only one who entered the guest room was Kanon. The one who helped Battler escape was unmistakably Kanon himself. At that time, I immediately closed the door and reset the chain lock, sealing the room. Erika "sealed" the room by connecting the sections of the severed chain using her duct tape. In short, she used the seals to repair the chain, and used that to make a closed room again from the inside. Counterpoint: I'll acknowledge it. You, Battler, and Kanon add up to three people. Of course. Three people, that is, three bodies, went in and out of the room. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. I already stated with the red truth that all names refer only to the actual people. Therefore, the names "Erika", "Battler", and "Kanon" refer only to the actual people. EDIT EDIT: If "all other people" doesn't include Erika, who sealed them in the rooms? If it does include Erika, then "Erika" can be any one person except Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo. Which would reduce the suspect list to Rudolf, Kyrie, and Kanon. But Kyrie is in a different room, in red. Rudolf or Kanon? (triple edit: I suppose Shannon is also possible. Goodness, Shannon seems to be a lot of people lately doesn't she?) Last edited by Renall; 2010-02-08 at 17:43. |
2010-02-08, 17:33 | Link #1433 |
The unlucky one
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hiding
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Those five are interesting options but still rather odd.
Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse. If we look at the older games the setup inside the Guesthouse is off as Kanon, Shannon and Genji are normally supposed to go to Guesthouse and this is the first time they aren't which is strange in itself (except for episode 4 which was...well weird). Also normally there would be three servants for the people in the gueshouse. Do you think they would leave only the slacker Kumasawa and Gohda with the guests and keep more servants with them in the mansion? Also it would be strange for one of the adults to miss out the conference, right? Therefore I believe Erika is either Kanon or Shannon But can you imagine that they would work together with Eva? We know Shannon's and Eva's relationship is certainly not the best and Kanon despises her so why would they do that? So I think all five choices are rather strange
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Last edited by Kitsu; 2010-02-08 at 17:43. |
2010-02-08, 17:52 | Link #1435 | |||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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...But only if "Erika" is the same person in both episodes, which I don't think is workable since it makes Rudolf one of the culprits. Quote:
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2010-02-08, 17:55 | Link #1436 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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But why would they let her leave the conference room, unless specifically for the purpose of establishing alibis for everyone there? |
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2010-02-08, 17:59 | Link #1437 | |
Tenshi's Defense Squadron
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Fighting against those who oppress the system
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2010-02-09, 03:51 | Link #1438 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Names are not exclusive Has been proven to be a valid argument. However that only means that the person themselves really have the same name. In other words both the Ushiromiya Battler have all rights to call themselves Ushiromiya Battler. In the Shkannon theory case, Shannon really is assuming the Kanon personality, she is by all means the Kanon that we have all seen, She took the name of Kanon, she is disguising as Kanon and she is the only one among the people in the island that can be called Kanon. What you are suggesting is that the witch on a whim can attach whatever name she wants on whatever person she wants. If that was the case imagine the consequences. Let's say Nanjo is the culprit and the detective says Nanjo is the culprit at this point the witch can merely think "well then I'll just rename Jessica for the occasion as Nanjo" and then say: Nanjo is not the culprit. Or even better let's say that Kanon is dead, but then the witch renames him Jessica and say: Jessica is dead, and then rename him George and say George is dead and then so on until she covers 18 people making it look like 18 people have died when only one really did. I claim that this is as bad as to say that the red truth is a lie. In fact you are suggesting that it is possible to say that Erika Furudo is alive in red even if she's actually a corpse. In that case red would be totally unreliable. I therefore claim that it is impossible for a witch to attach a name on a person as she sees fit, and that she can only do that when the characters themselves really are called that way, are known by that name or use that name.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2010-02-09 at 04:10. |
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2010-02-09, 04:06 | Link #1439 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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Names....
There were two Ushiromiya Battler, one was born from Asumu (or the red texts would not work), another one we were familiar with was not born from Asumu, but also called Ushiromiya Battler. Sayo was her own name, she could also be called Shannon, which was a codename for work, assigned by Genji or Kinzo. Kanon was told to have real name Yoshiya, though it was not confirmed in red (Sayo was not confirmed, so someone could argue she was called Battler....), I think it was true. Kinzo... We only knew about one Ushiromiya Kinzo, and maybe he could be called Goldensmith as well..... What else? Jessica had an alternative name called Jessie. Kumasawa could be called Virgilia (hey, she wrote that name in Maria's grimore). Can Genji be called Ronove? Other adults, Maria and George seemed to have only one name. Anyone who was Maria's master could be called Beatrice. So was the one making all the pranks throughout the years. 1967 one was also called Beatrice. Any hints that other people had not only these names? I don't think so.
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2010-02-09, 04:07 | Link #1440 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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So for example, if Beatrice controls Shannon such that Shannon hands a letter to Maria, she can say that "I, Beatrice, handed a letter over to Maria" but not that "Nanjo handed a letter to Maria." |
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