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Old 2013-01-14, 19:01   Link #31661
Renall
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Though sometimes I wonder if Ange isn't actually 6 years old Ange who exists solely in Tohya/Battler's mind (Ep 8 implied somewhere that Ange is still 6 inside...). Young Ange might have been spoiled and stubborn and in Tohya's mind that's how she remained.
This is something I feel wasn't developed enough as a theme, this idea that Yasu doesn't really know what's become of Battler in six years and Battler doesn't know what's become of Ange in twelve, and seeing each as if neither has changed in any way in the intervening years. And, you know, being wrong.
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Old 2013-01-14, 19:26   Link #31662
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This is something I feel wasn't developed enough as a theme, this idea that Yasu doesn't really know what's become of Battler in six years and Battler doesn't know what's become of Ange in twelve, and seeing each as if neither has changed in any way in the intervening years. And, you know, being wrong.
I think the real problem is that Umineko likes to be blurry and allow for more than one theory. As a result we've a Ange that could be 6 as well as an 18 with problems and we're left to wonder if the problem is Tohya doesn't know Ange grew up or if it's Ange who actually never grew up.

And maybe it's just because it's late and I'm tired but sometimes I would really like for Umineko to give straight answers to all the questions it raised.
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Old 2013-01-16, 17:56   Link #31663
Thunder Book
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Umineko...giving straight answers? My mind can't even comprehend that idea. Even its more obvious answers go over some people's heads.

Anyways, it's been a while since I last came to this thread. Have any new consensuses on anything in this series been reached in the last few months?
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Old 2013-01-16, 18:21   Link #31664
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
Umineko...giving straight answers? My mind can't even comprehend that idea. Even its more obvious answers go over some people's heads.

Anyways, it's been a while since I last came to this thread. Have any new consensuses on anything in this series been reached in the last few months?
Well, I don't know to which point of the discussion you were anyway Our Confession and Ep 8 manga had handed us some answers on some questions.
So I guess it's not really consensus, more that we got additional info.
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Old 2013-01-17, 17:35   Link #31665
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Consensus: Angeburgers are really tasty, and Yasutrice is probably more right than Rosatrice.
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Old 2013-01-18, 02:08   Link #31666
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Rosatrice? Is KnownNoMore STILL advocating that?
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Old 2013-01-18, 05:04   Link #31667
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Well, I think he's put way too much time and effort into it to actually admit he's wrong at this stage. But he does seem to have become less hostile to the Shkanontrice advocates in his later videos, and he seems to have mostly stopped bothering to respond to comments on his videos, so I think it's fair to say that he's not really as certain of his theory as he used to be. Or he just realised that we'll never "see the light" and stopped caring.
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Old 2013-01-18, 12:18   Link #31668
AC-Phoenix
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TBH there are only a few things pointing to Rosatrice, while a lot more things are contradicting it.

- Hair color(not same but kind of similar)
- Clothes color
- Beatrice being surpirsed about Sakutaro (EP 4 - META)

For the entire EP 2 Rosa has an alibi. Will was allowed to counter blues with his VanDine reds so they are probably applicable too, so only one culprit with MINOR accomplices.
Though his idea of what george does is no longer 'minor'.

the rest is pretty circumstancial.
I guess he realized tha by now and just can't back down after all the work he did.
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2013-01-18 at 12:51.
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Old 2013-01-18, 13:25   Link #31669
GabrieliosP
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Wait, "similar hair color" counts as evidence to Rosatrice?!
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Old 2013-01-18, 14:22   Link #31670
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Wait, "similar hair color" counts as evidence to Rosatrice?!
I seem to recall "similar hair" was literally the #1 argument in favor of Jessitrice.

That did not work out so well.

If anything, the best candidate for Beatrice would be someone with short hair, because short hair is easier to wear a wig with. Rosa has long hair, so that's automatically going to be an issue.

Also it would be way easier to style a wig the way Beatrice wears her hair than to actually attempt to style it oneself. I'm not sure it's even possible to style it like that without assistance, at least not with any sort of speed.
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Old 2013-01-18, 14:34   Link #31671
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You can come up with a lot of reasons for anyone to be Beatrice if you try hard enough - and KNM certainly did. Personally I think the most hilarious one was that all the ridiculous outfits on Beatrice's demons counted as evidence towards Rosatrice, because it was said that Rosa had an unsuccessful fashion design company.
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Old 2013-01-18, 14:36   Link #31672
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Well, there are so many special visual similarities between specific characters that hair colour could be seen as some sort of hint, but I would advise against using it as a basis for a new line of inquiry though.
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Old 2013-01-18, 15:23   Link #31673
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Well, there are so many special visual similarities between specific characters that hair colour could be seen as some sort of hint, but I would advise against using it as a basis for a new line of inquiry though.
Really, the issue with hair colors is that they apparently are just there for visual diversity. If hair were never mentioned at all that'd be one thing, but the interesting thing about hair color is it almost only ever gets mentioned in the context of Beatrice.

For example, in Legend Battler comments on the portrait witch's blonde hair. He never remarks about the colors of Rosa or Jessica's hair in any way, nor does he use this as the basis for any sort of suspicion. In Requiem, Kinzo and Beatrice C. talk about Italian and Japanese hair, and no mention is made of Kinzo's hair apparently being white as a sheet in his 30s.

Also there's the whole thing with Battler and Ange having similar hair colors even though neither their father nor mother has a color matching them and also no one notices these similarities to argue against them being merely half-siblings.

From all this, we know two things:
  • Beatrice's hair color is important; and
  • Absolutely no other non-magical character's is.
So that pretty much would serve to eliminate most folks from contention. Notably though, Kanon's hair would be fairly easy to conceal under wigs, as it's rather short... though the same could be said for Kyrie, I guess.

Also no one ever remarks on Shannon, Kanon, or Yasu's hair color, so my assumption is that obvious European features are not present there. If they were, I would have to think somebody would've noticed that at some point, or else everyone is impossibly dense, or Yasu has always worn wigs at all times for no apparent reason.
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This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2013-01-18, 18:15   Link #31674
DaBackpack
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There's also the thing about race that is conveniently ignored.

Though I guess this isn't too much of an issue: the Second Beatrice would be part Japanese and part Italian, then Yasu would probably be more Japanese than Italian. It's just that all mentions of Piece-Beatrice by other characters refer to her as "the Witch of the Portrait" (including Battler at the end of EP1, iirc). Maybe they were only referring to dress and hair style? I dunno, if I was certain that it was the Witch of the Portrait, then I would base that on facial features as well.

"Hey guys it's Beatrice. But it's Asian." => All characters have Asian features so you can't find out by looking at the face.
or
"Hey guys it's Beatrice. An Italian one." => Yasu is noticeably Italian, or he found his mother's grave, cut her face off and is using it as a mask.

Last edited by DaBackpack; 2013-01-18 at 18:28.
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Old 2013-01-18, 18:32   Link #31675
GabrieliosP
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Then again, whenever someone meets Beatrice in the gameboard, they're probably too shocked to really notice things.

It has the same dress and same hair color and hairstyle, therefore it is Beatrice.

However, Kyrie met Beato side by side with the portrait in EP2 and, in her eyes, Beato as identical to Beatrice Ushiromiya. Or Kyrie is a betrayed accomplice and EP2 and was told to say that they are the same.
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Old 2013-01-19, 05:08   Link #31676
Drifloon
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or he found his mother's grave, cut her face off and is using it as a mask.
This is canon now.
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Old 2013-01-19, 11:03   Link #31677
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
There's also the thing about race that is conveniently ignored.

Though I guess this isn't too much of an issue: the Second Beatrice would be part Japanese and part Italian, then Yasu would probably be more Japanese than Italian. It's just that all mentions of Piece-Beatrice by other characters refer to her as "the Witch of the Portrait" (including Battler at the end of EP1, iirc). Maybe they were only referring to dress and hair style? I dunno, if I was certain that it was the Witch of the Portrait, then I would base that on facial features as well.

"Hey guys it's Beatrice. But it's Asian." => All characters have Asian features so you can't find out by looking at the face.
or
"Hey guys it's Beatrice. An Italian one." => Yasu is noticeably Italian, or he found his mother's grave, cut her face off and is using it as a mask.
Now I get the manga scene in Ep 4 in which Battler litterally lost his face and someone else placed it on himself!
It was supposed to be a hint of what Beato did!
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Old 2013-01-19, 12:02   Link #31678
DaBackpack
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Not to mention EP1 First Twilight. It was foreshadowed from the beginning!
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Old 2013-01-19, 12:10   Link #31679
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Not to mention EP1 First Twilight. It was foreshadowed from the beginning!
Therefore, it also passes the Knox rules! Not even Dlanor can stop this theory!
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2013-01-19, 12:31   Link #31680
DaBackpack
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Maybe she started a face collection? Yasu hated mirrors, after all.

Hell, maybe there was a real Kanon whose face she stole and uses on occasion.

heck why stop there

Yasu is Buffalo Bill.
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