2011-01-30, 20:44 | Link #21 |
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This series isn't entirely about taking up challenges with love and faith. Mami's death was a demonstration of that, you also need to constantly think and be aware of what's going on. Sayaka made a hasty decision in the heat of the moment and can never go back on it, Madoka on the other hand is still capable of weighing her options. She realized that her resolve isn't strong enough to truly become a magical girl and changed her mind, hence her apologetic attitude in episode 4. She technically did nothing wrong, she just feels guilty for not being able to do what she said she would. Completely understandable given the circumstances. Sayaka on the other hand will regret her choice and it's pretty much foreshadowed that she will regret it soon, unlike Madoka who didn't want to make the rest of her life miserable for the sake of a promise that seemed serious at the time, Sayaka risked her life for a guy who so far seems to be indifferent towards her despite being childhood friends. There's more to the story than that, however one can't say that Sayaka's decision was the best one.
Also, no this is not Sailor Moon. Usagi faced her fears because she had to, she had to fight Beryl after watching each of her friends die rather unpleasant deaths. That much is true, but the circumstances and events framing that were completely different. Madoka is not Usagi, she is not Nanoha, she is not Tsukikage Yuri, she is Kaname Madoka. It is not fair to her character to judge and compare her to other characters who are part of a similar yet different genres after episode 4. It's not fair to oversimplify things. It's not fair to attack her character after she hasn't even been given a chance to develop. I do understand that while in my opinion it's not fair to do this so soon, it's not yours and you are free to do what you want as will everybody else. I just think it'd be a good idea to give her a chance and to stop comparing her character to others so soon because of one or two plot points that either weren't brought up or that you didn't like.
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2011-01-30, 20:53 | Link #22 |
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Join Date: May 2007
Age: 38
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Sailor Moon had her reasons for fighting (Because she going to die if she didn't if I remember)
Shinji had his reasons for fighting (Because if he didn't want his dick of a father would send an injured Rei back out to the front lines) Madoka guess what doesn't have one! (not as of yet mind you) but lets for the sake of argument say she does make a contract she would have to put her life on the line doing a thankless job that knows no end with zero reward beside one wish. Now one would think it'd be pretty dumb to jump into that unless it was one hell of a wish and as of right now as fare as Madoka is concerned no wish on earth, heaven, or hell seems worth the risk. And as for Sayaka the only real reason she made her wish was to heal her boyfriend and gaining the magical powers was just to further sugar coat the deal but mark my words shes going to see that spending time with him may be harder now that she has to take time out of her day to slay giant monster.
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2011-01-30, 21:10 | Link #23 | ||||
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I'm really puzzled on how we aren't supposed to judge Madoka at all. We apparently can't compare one 14 year old magical girl who watched multiple friends die, to another 14 year old possible magical girl who watched a friend die. That's strange, but okay. Quote:
And even if you wouldn't be up for it, I know a lot of people here would. Hell, I would. Homura may have her reasons for trying to drive Madoka out of it, and the writers may be trying to tell us how horrible it is; but so far, it doesn't seem like a bad deal. Equivalent exchange, as Kyube said. Quote:
I'll say it again: Regardless of how it ends up for her, and regardless of her reasons... and you know, for the sake of argument, let's assume she made her wish for purely selfish reasons, and let's assume that it does end horribly for her. She STILL made the choice to risk her life, knowing it was a "thankless job with zero reward" and that she'd have to fight for the rest of her life, risking death and being forgotten. That takes balls in my book. Big, stainless steel ones. But this isn't a Sayaka thread. This is a Madoka thread. A thread that's getting good discussion now. Edit to add some more: I'll repeat that Madoka having flaws is a GOOD thing. It means she can grow out of them into a better person. But if you try to excuse them, you simply take away from the moment when Madoka grows out of it. She becomes your standard magical girl that whines about fighting and wishes she could live a normal life. When that type of MG finally fights, it doesn't bring about any "Wow, she finally grew up!" feeling. More of a "Man, it's about time; wish she'd cut out the whining and just do it!" Last edited by Kaijo; 2011-01-30 at 21:21. Reason: Edited out some of the comparisons, since it's a Madoka thread |
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2011-01-30, 21:26 | Link #25 | |
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And hey, I'll give the girl some grieving time. It's not totally a bad thing that she hasn't stepped forward just yet. My only concern was hoping she didn't become a character stereotype of the terminally depressed, like a certain Eva pilot or a crying moon girl. I think she won't, but then again, we'll see. A lot of people are forecasting this to be a dark series, and given how Madoka has handled that so far, she'll end up in an asylum before too long... |
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2011-01-31, 04:38 | Link #26 | ||
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Location: Tennessee
Age: 36
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2011-01-31, 08:24 | Link #27 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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In most other magical girl series, the girls in question accept the magic by the end of the first episode. By the time something happens that makes them think, "OMG, I really could die while doing this!" they're already in so deep, they have to buckle up and continue on, trusting in their abilities and experience as magical girls to pull them through.
Madoka in comparison has the luxury of seeing the glorious and ugly sides of magical girls in action repeatedly before deciding if she wants to become one. Unlike almost every other magical girl ever, she still has the option of walking away without consequences at this stage of the game. |
2011-01-31, 08:25 | Link #28 |
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In episode 1, i found Madoka so-so. In episode 2, impressions improved but still don't really care. Episode 3, found her naviety annoying but otherwise ok. Episode 4, i found myself hoping she never becomes a mahou shoujo.
I blame the toothbrushing scenes and the scenes where she lets down her hair. Her pancake style face is growing on me as well. Episodes 1-3 established her as an innocent person while 4 gave her sadness, fear and bravery. When Kyubei's sentences are accepted as double meaning (episode 1: If you give up now, everything ends! <-yeah you would end you furry idiot), the bad end that is in store really sucks. They really pulled off the emotional manipulation good there. The manipulation of light and shadow to control the underlying messages was also very well done. If she was established as a idiot + innocent + naive, then i won't not have cared about her upcoming bad end since no one can save an idiot. Eg Sayaka. To me she's an idiot, wishing for something that could be solved without wishes just because it was expedient. Now she's probably going to drag Madoka in when she's about to get killed or similar. |
2011-01-31, 13:14 | Link #29 | |
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By the way, not sure what you mean about "something that could be solved without wishes" as we were very definitely told that Kamijou's hand could not be healed with any medical technology. Only a wish could have healed him and allowed him to play again. |
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2011-01-31, 14:24 | Link #30 | |
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Then there is the problem of can she even die inside there? Has any normals been killed inside a witch dimension? Cut off your left hand. There's no wishes in RL. What happens? The vet whose hand gets amputated. He can't shoot anymore. Does he die? |
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2011-01-31, 15:00 | Link #33 | |||
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And in actuality, by Sayaka becoming an MG, Madoka doesn't have to. Now there is someone who can take of the witches. So Sayaka is helping to keep Madoka uninvolved in the MG business. Quote:
Also, since witches deliberately feed on normal people, I would assume it could draw them in. Quote:
Your original comment was that his hand could be "solved" without wishes. That is blatantly untrue. It's a point of fact: Kamijou would never have been able to play the violin again without a wish (or some other magic or miracle). Heh, it's one of the few facts we have. |
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2011-01-31, 15:20 | Link #34 | ||||
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Too coincidental when a nice example of the furball showing up exactly when Sayaka friend is acting up is added into the equation. Quote:
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Yes we could make a case of her being young (yet she is aware of the selfishness that serves as the root for wishing for others) and we could make a case of her being emotionally fragile (and she never thought such a day would happen?!?) Normally in such cases in anime, i just wait for them to reap what they sow and laugh about it but in this case, she's probably bringing down Madoka and that is just not nice. |
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2011-01-31, 15:36 | Link #35 | |||||
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See, this would imply Kyube has control over witch victims, something that hasn't been stated. You're welcome to the assumption, though, if it makes you feel better. When you're assuming there is a Chessmaster in play, you have to be able to account for them controlling what is random. There is no way Kyube could have controlled where Madoka went, nor predicted where she would go. Quote:
You're Kyube far too much credit for controlling things, that it begins to stress the sense of disbelief. Having written many stories myself, I've had to rewrite some of my stories when it was pointed out that no one could have successfully engineered certain things; there were just too many uncontrollable random elements in play. Quote:
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Or perhaps you'd see someone suffering on the side of the road, but not stop to help because, "Eh, it's just a little pain they are going through. With enough support, they'll get better." Holy shit, you scare me. Quote:
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2011-01-31, 15:55 | Link #36 | ||||
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And sorry you don't need to control the witch victims you just need control over the witch. Grief seed stuck in a hospital where surprise surprise Sayaka's friend is in? Quote:
Lets put it in sci fi. Could Q from startrek have done what you said? Quote:
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i) Point out where i said Sayaka should have gleeful laughed at her friend ii) Point out where i mentioned complete paralysis. iii) Is losing access to your left had complete paralysis? iv) Exactly where did i say that Sayaka would feel that its better to remain as he was, depressed and dreamless? v) If Sayaka helped him be spending YEARS or DECADES, does that mean a greater SACRIFICE than "wish your hand was fine, ok i'm off to die now"? ... But then again like i said, some things can't be taught. Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-02-01 at 10:01. Reason: Let's not get personal... take it to PM or VM. |
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2011-01-31, 16:09 | Link #37 | ||||
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In short, whether Kyube showed up there on his own whim or Sayaka's is immaterial. Sayaka appeared quite ready to make the wish, and if Kyube hadn't showed up, she probably would have gone looking for him. If anything, Kuybe was responding to her heart. Quote:
Again, you make assumptions. Are they interesting theories? Yes, that I'll grant. But they haven't been proven one way or the other. Quote:
I'm sorry I can't share that assumption. Even if I buy that she couldn't have died, she was at least in pain from being stretched, so I suppose you think endless torture is somehow better than death? Quote:
But you're trying to make it sound like a bad thing that he was healed, and that he'll once again be able to do the thing he loved more than anything: play the violin. I'm really trying to wrap my head around this; do you really think people should turn down a chance to be able to do what they loved? Do you think injured people shouldn't be healed? Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-02-01 at 10:03. Reason: Removed quoted off-topic sentences |
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2011-01-31, 16:33 | Link #38 | ||||
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Madoka was safe from making that wish UNTIL someone she cares for is threatened. Currently that is Sayaka and will remain so. If/When she bites it, the next in line is her family. Sure her family could be bumped up in the queue if Sayaka did not make her wish BUT stopping her family from suiciding is easier than stopping a witch which is what an inexperienced and not very powerful Sayaka (Mami never mentioned Sayaka) will face. Ever wonder why the furball is so anxious to get Madoka to become mahou shoujo? This implies urgency which implies something critical whether a time limit or what not. Quote:
It is a STUPID thing he was healed because the COST is Sayaka dying (ok no big deal to me, reap what you sow etc) and probably dragging down Madoka with her. None of this NEEDED to happen if she really wanted to help him. Now he gets his hand back and she's going to die. Seriously think about it. The method i proposed, she would LIVE (abeit with much sadness until the guy got over it) and the guy could still be saved. |
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2011-01-31, 16:44 | Link #40 | ||
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So he should have left her to die?
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That would have made one HELL of an impression on Madoka. Even if she didn't decide to become an MG, it's great mental torture to subject someone to, knowing that in time, they'd probably come to you because they know about a specific wish you can grant. Instead, he apologizes for bringing them in. Note that Kyube doesn't even appear when Madoka gets involved with the zombies. He could have popped in and said, "I can help get you out of this if you contract with me." Would have been perfect. Quote:
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