AnimeSuki Forums

cronnoponno · 2012-02-10, 04:44

Quick question:

In EP 8, how does Battler asking about Kinzo and Genji's relationship make sense?

Does he not know? But he's the GM and I'm assuming made the piece Kinzo and thus everything he could possibly have asked Kinzo would have made him give a rehearsed response.

If he did it within earshot of Ange, I'd understand, but I think that he didn't, right?

Was he just making a feel with role playing(with a side motivation to let us know about their relationship)?

AuraTwilight · 2012-02-10, 06:15

Battler exists on a higher plane than other characters. He's aware we're watching him.

Renall · 2012-02-10, 10:00

If you go by the shift in Genji's role from "marginally important side character with a relationship with Shannon and Kanon" to "some guy who dies all the time and doesn't say much," about the only sensible explanation I have is that the degree to which the author actually knew the person determines how well-characterized their piece ends up being.

Yasu knew Genji... a little bit. He was an important figure, but one she didn't know too well. Her stories make him somewhat more prominent (he doesn't die in the FT in Legend and Turn, yet he almost never survives a First Twilight thereafter).

Battler/Tohya didn't know Genji at all and probably hadn't ever talked to him much. In his stories, Genji is damn near an automaton or disposable because it's hard to write a person you don't even know and who never offers any detail about himself.

The person who knew Genji best was Kinzo, so it makes a degree of sense to kind of toy with that, although we as the audience never get any especially detailed information on it since Kinzo left nothing behind (that we're aware of) outlining it. However, it seems impossible for Battler to get out of Kinzo information about him that he doesn't already know. But maybe he can, because wizard.

rogerpepitone · 2012-02-10, 11:30

Battler didn't know Genji that well, but doesn't that apply to most of the servants? Didn't he know Gohda and Kanon even less well?

And, while Genji dies at the first twilight in 4 Episodes after E2 (3,4,5,8, probably not 7), Rosa dies at the first twilight in 5 Episodes after E2 (4,5,6,8, and definitely 7), and dies at the second twilight in the remaining Episode.

Renall · 2012-02-10, 12:11

Battler thinks Rosa is reliable and keeps her promises. That should tell you how much he actually knows about her.

Also Kanon is fictional and Gohda really doesn't get covered that much, so it sounds about right.

jjblue1 · 2012-02-10, 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

Battler thinks Rosa is reliable and keeps her promises. That should tell you how much he actually knows about her.

Battler seems to know only the good side of people. While I can understand how he would hesitate to say that one of his relatives might be the culprit he never tries to pin Gohda as such even through he barely knows the guy.
He knows a 19th person is unlikely and yet he doesn't even want to accuse the person with whom he has no family relation and that has just met.

He's also willing to forgive Erika and tries to make friend with Bern... and was also willing to forgive Beato in EP 3. Really, there should have been something else going on in whose 6 years that stopped him from forgiving his father after a couple of days...

Though yes, likely he doesn't know everyone very well since he hadn't seen most of the Umineko cast for 6 years...

Kealym · 2012-02-10, 18:00

Honestly, the only pieces Battler should know very well at all are George, Jessica, and Shannon, and even THAT'S sort of pushing it since they also barely saw each other, as far as we're told, even when Battler was still part of the family.

I do agree though, that Genji dies so often out of both the functionality of having Genji able to ninja around freely as an accomplice (I was almost certain he was alive for most of Alliance...), or the author just moving him out of the way. I could only take Rosa's awful death rate (I believe it's the absolute worst, of the 18) as some sort of spite.

Anyhoo, about EP8 - I think most of the "extra scenes" you get for solving the riddles, are things where R07 basically wants to address some matter, before ending the series. Ange is only present for George and Jessica's, who give the most direct explanation she gets for what Battler's game is about. But yeah, EP7 would've been the ideal place for Misadventures in Taiwan.

jjblue1 · 2012-02-10, 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kealym

Honestly, the only pieces Battler should know very well at all are George, Jessica, and Shannon, and even THAT'S sort of pushing it since they also barely saw each other, as far as we're told, even when Battler was still part of the family.

Technically the one he should know better is Rudolf and he should know Kirye more than his aunts... though likely before coming to Rokkenjima he didn't know she would have killed Asumu (though he might have discovere it while on Rokkenjima).

Judoh · 2012-02-11, 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kealym

Anyhoo, about EP8 - I think most of the "extra scenes" you get for solving the riddles, are things where R07 basically wants to address some matter, before ending the series. Ange is only present for George and Jessica's, who give the most direct explanation she gets for what Battler's game is about. But yeah, EP7 would've been the ideal place for Misadventures in Taiwan.

I just read episode 8, and I actually thought Genji's backstory after solving his riddle gave us some good information about him.

We learn that was a 'Ruffian' who was part of a rich family similar to the Ushiromiyas in Taiwan. Kinzo offered him and his family Sanctuary when Taiwan decided to break off during the war and got in trouble. They weren't exactly welcomed by the new government. And the rest of his family refused the help.

Yeah it's not a LOT of information. But we at least know he wasn't the always the robot everyone makes him out to be. He was kind of a punk as a kid, and gradually became the way he is now. He might even be ashamed of how he acted when he was younger whereas Kinzo thought of that time as when he was the most free.

He's loyal to Kinzo because Kinzo gave him a home when he was in trouble, much like how the fukuin servants are given a home while working there actually.

I think the reason Ryukishi never goes into Genji's story in detail is Genji just isn't very important when it comes to the mystery parts of Umineko's story. Except when it comes to how Yasu grew up from his role as father to yasu and his involvement in the epitaph in the Beatrice mythos. Ryukishi only told us what we needed to know to understand those parts about what Genji did before the mystery 'ended' in episode 7.

Kealym · 2012-02-12, 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Technically the one he should know better is Rudolf and he should know Kirye more than his aunts... though likely before coming to Rokkenjima he didn't know she would have killed Asumu (though he might have discovere it while on Rokkenjima).

Okay yeah, he probably knows his father to the degree that any father is known to their 12 year olds. However, I'd think he wouldn't know Kyrie very well at all, if Rudolf was doing ANY kind of a decent job of hiding his infidelity. Battler might know her as "that woman from dad's work", and he seems to have gained a cursory understanding of her public face, probably from those few outings for Ange's sake, but he can't have had much more meaningful face time with her than with any of his aunts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

I think the reason Ryukishi never goes into Genji's story in detail is Genji just isn't very important when it comes to the mystery parts of Umineko's story. Except when it comes to how Yasu grew up from his role as father to yasu and his involvement in the epitaph in the Beatrice mythos. Ryukishi only told us what we needed to know to understand those parts about what Genji did before the mystery 'ended' in episode 7.

I'll agree that the gameboards tend to treat him as a throwaway character who'll do whatever Yasu needs without even needing to be bribed.

However, I dont think it had to be this way. Giving us more insight into his life would help us understand his actions and ... well, the heart of the matter, concerning him. Yes, we get an adequate synopsis of his youth ... followed by a catbox of personal history spanning 50 years and a whole helluva lot of people falling off cliffs. The point is, R07 totes could have made an arc around Genji, just like we had similar explorations of Natsuhi, and Eva, and Rosa, and the cousins, etc.

Of course, take into account that I also think Yasu / Shkanon love issues got way, way, way too much screen time, and I was more intrigued by the adults than the children, so I spent quite a lot of the story desperately wanting MOARRRRR, even though there was already so much.

ndqanh_vn · 2012-02-12, 05:43

Quote:

Of course, take into account that I also think Yasu / Shkanon love issues got way, way, way too much screen time, and I was more intrigued by the adults than the children, so I spent quite a lot of the story desperately wanting MOARRRRR, even though there was already so much.

You're not the only one

I also was more interested in the adults. In Umineko, the adult, especially female, are very interesting when then took the spotlight (Rosa, Eva, Natsuhi...). The story successful in bringing them out as multi-faced human, both sympathetic yet has fault of their own. The children, on the contrary, despite their large screentime, remained very generic and "flat."

I would like to know more about, say, Kyrie, Krauss or Hideyoshi than listening to Yasu whining about her love. And oh, maybe I'm the same as Erika, but the length of the Love Duel in EP6 just tickled me the wrong way. Well...about Hideyoshi or Genji, more about them would be fine, but I think he could not possibly handled all 18 characters.

ALL the screen of Hideoyoshi in EP1 and EP3, even short, but impressed me greatly for some reason.

Cao Ni Ma · 2012-02-12, 07:43

Its pretty clear what RK07 wanted to do with Genji. The "traditional" servant role as explained by Carr. The problem is that he goes around and makes Genji a needed accomplice in just about every story. I guess his justification for that would be that he's a robot so he does whatever he's told to do. RK07 just forgot that people like this aren't interesting accomplices or culprits.

Leafsnail · 2012-02-12, 08:37

Does he need to be an accomplice in the murders, though? I mean he obviously had to be in on Kinzo being dead and the fake Beatrice in episode 2, but other than that he generally just dies early and isn't needed for much else.

jjblue1 · 2012-02-12, 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kealym

Okay yeah, he probably knows his father to the degree that any father is known to their 12 year olds. However, I'd think he wouldn't know Kyrie very well at all, if Rudolf was doing ANY kind of a decent job of hiding his infidelity. Battler might know her as "that woman from dad's work", and he seems to have gained a cursory understanding of her public face, probably from those few outings for Ange's sake, but he can't have had much more meaningful face time with her than with any of his aunts.

Well, he had been meeting both Kirye and Rudolf during whose 6 years and through he still lives out of his father's house it seems he was going back and forth before the incident so he should know them better than the aunts and cousins he's not seeing by 6 years (expecially considering the cousins should have changed... unless they too remained the same as him? and that he claims he doesn't remember much of those years).

Though I doubt Battler can know about the people involved more than the facade they present to the world but this is a problem for more or less all the characters.

They likely had some characters they knew better than Battler, for example Yasuda should have known Genji and Kumasawa, though I'm not sure she knew Genji on a deep level because Genji looks reserved and might not have spent time telling her his feelings and his life. She might have known Jessica pretty well but she likely got nearly 0 confidence from Natsuhi, who viewed her as a mere servant for which she apparently had no fondness.
So Natsuhi's pain for not being able to have a baby is either Yasuda's speculation or an into Kumasawa got observing Natsuhi and that she passed to Yasuda and not something Natsuhi told her first hand or that she openly showed.

In our confession in fact apparently she was described as a pretty flat character, notable only for her sense of pride.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

The children, on the contrary, despite their large screentime, remained very generic and "flat."

The problem with the children is that they were basically presented solely as 'good people' while the adults had a certain dualism.

Eva can be a jerk but she's also a loving mother and wife.
Rosa beats Maria but she's clearly someone with problems who regrets her actions and lives an internal fighting between being Maria's loving mama and being the 'bad witch'.
Kirye presents a very cold and calm exterior but she should be rather passionate under it.
Rudolf is lazy and a cheater with a low sense of moral but, in his own way loves Battler.
Krauss is arrogant but again, he loves his siblings, his wife and Jessica.
Natsuhi is prideful which stops her from expressing her better feelings. She loves Jessica for example but she fails at showing it properly and regrets this.
Hideyoshi is... well, nothing exceptional but he loves deeply his own family.

The children instead well, they're just good kids. They can claim they've no respect for their parents (Jessica) or that they're willing to fight them (George) or that they want them dead (Maria) but, apart from love scenes, they do show they love their relative deeply and they always try to do the right thing.

Even when George says he's willing to kill everyone in EP 4 in the end we know he wasn't going to do it and the murders in EP 6 were clearly fantasy.

We learnt only near the end that George was jealous of Battler... (can it be George gets a dark side because, although still considered a kid is well... not one anymore?) and if we want to stretch things Jessica didn't want Shannon to have a love story before her... but really, this is nothing compared to what the adults can do.
George's jealousy doesn't match Kirye's...

Leafsnail · 2012-02-12, 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

George's jealousy doesn't match Kirye's...

Well, to be fair, Kyrie's been honing that jealousy ever since George was 5. He has tough competition.

...Although isn't George's attraction to Shannon "6 years ago" well... a bit weird? I mean she was to all intents and purposes 10 at the time while George was 17.

jjblue1 · 2012-02-12, 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Well, to be fair, Kyrie's been honing that jealousy ever since George was 5. He has tough competition.

...Although isn't George's attraction to Shannon "6 years ago" well... a bit weird? I mean she was to all intents and purposes 10 at the time while George was 17.

Well, actually George admitted in EP 6 that 6 years ago he wasn't attracted to Shannon, he was irritated at the fact that Shannon wasn't attracted to him but to Battler, whom he deemed inferior, and basically acted out of this dark impulse and, only when he got to know Shannon well, he fell in love with her.

It's still pretty low on him because basically he was jealous of the fact his cousin, who respected him and looked up at him, had a girl he liked and that liked him back (he'll say in EP 7 that he even thought Battler and Shannon were dating back then) and tried to get in between even though he had no feelings for Shannon, thinking that Shannon was stupid for favouring Battler.

George admitted he was a pitiful person back then and confessed it to Shannon... though I think he should also apologize to Battler.

ndqanh_vn · 2012-02-13, 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, actually George admitted in EP 6 that 6 years ago he wasn't attracted to Shannon, he was irritated at the fact that Shannon wasn't attracted to him but to Battler, whom he deemed inferior, and basically acted out of this dark impulse and, only when he got to know Shannon well, he fell in love with her.

.

But still it is creepy as hell. 7 years gap maybe not much in later ages, but from 17 and 10 is a huge gap in mind and in body. If a girl prefers my 10 years old cousin more than me, I would think that it's obvious as they are of the same age. 17 years old and above is considered pretty much as "adult" by young kid. They definitely did not want to get too close to him. There're really some thing very twisted in Geogre's point of view.

Which made me think of something...Why the hell do that family has such young servants? A 10 years old kid could not help much. Isn't it against the law (child labor) or something?

Well, I guess the thing that made the kid so flat is that...they're mostly presented in one specific relationship, especially Jessica, she's mostly portrayed in her relationship with Kanon. Same to Kanon.

Misuzu · 2012-02-13, 11:30

Kanon honestly felt like a waste of a character at the end, even though I loved the "zero in your roulette wheel" scene.

When I try to look it up, I see that the age to work in Japan is 15, but I don't know if that was true in the 80's. I also think it's possible that the Ushiromiyas could've found a way around it, seeing as they were wealthy and influential. Since it was done through the orphanage, they could've treated it like an education program or something? It's hard to theorize much without a better understanding of laws at that time.

Both the Shkannon relationships felt pretty flat to me, but Ryukishi wrote some Eva/Hideyoshi and Natsuhi/Krauss moments that I thought were absolutely terrific. I wish we'd gotten more of it and a lot less of the younger characters, even though I thought Jessica was kind of underdeveloped when all was said and done.

Oroboro · 2012-02-13, 12:25

In George's defense, I don't think it was so much specific attraction to a 10 year old girl as something more like -

"Why is my 10 year old loser cousin effortlessly getting attention from the ladies when they always ignore someone as awesome as me?"

...

Of course, it's not the only creepy thing George would've done, so I wouldn't quite put it past him either.

Toku · 2012-02-13, 12:42

According to his confession in EP6, George really was attracted to Shannon when he was 17.

In his defense, Shannon was actually 13 at the time, not 10.

Not that age makes any difference in this case, outside of social standards. Shannon's body was incapable of love back then as well. Therefore, it would have been a platonic relationship regardless.

Are you allowed to have a platonic relationship with someone 4 years younger than you? Uhh... I see absolutely no reason why not.

2012-02-10, 06:15	Link #27822
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	Battler exists on a higher plane than other characters. He's aware we're watching him. __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2012-02-10, 10:00	Link #27823
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	If you go by the shift in Genji's role from "marginally important side character with a relationship with Shannon and Kanon" to "some guy who dies all the time and doesn't say much," about the only sensible explanation I have is that the degree to which the author actually knew the person determines how well-characterized their piece ends up being. Yasu knew Genji... a little bit. He was an important figure, but one she didn't know too well. Her stories make him somewhat more prominent (he doesn't die in the FT in Legend and Turn, yet he almost never survives a First Twilight thereafter). Battler/Tohya didn't know Genji at all and probably hadn't ever talked to him much. In his stories, Genji is damn near an automaton or disposable because it's hard to write a person you don't even know and who never offers any detail about himself. The person who knew Genji best was Kinzo, so it makes a degree of sense to kind of toy with that, although we as the audience never get any especially detailed information on it since Kinzo left nothing behind (that we're aware of) outlining it. However, it seems impossible for Battler to get out of Kinzo information about him that he doesn't already know. But maybe he can, because wizard. __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error

2012-02-10, 11:30	Link #27824
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	Battler didn't know Genji that well, but doesn't that apply to most of the servants? Didn't he know Gohda and Kanon even less well? And, while Genji dies at the first twilight in 4 Episodes after E2 (3,4,5,8, probably not 7), Rosa dies at the first twilight in 5 Episodes after E2 (4,5,6,8, and definitely 7), and dies at the second twilight in the remaining Episode. __________________ Umineko notes: Various (1-4) Ep 3 (w/ red text) Ep 4 (w/ red text) . My projects: Higurashi Daybreak - in need of translator Higurashi DS Translation - in need of translator Never7: The End of Infinity - Finished! I/O: In progress 12Riven: In progress

2012-02-10, 12:11	Link #27825
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	Battler thinks Rosa is reliable and keeps her promises. That should tell you how much he actually knows about her. Also Kanon is fictional and Gohda really doesn't get covered that much, so it sounds about right. __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error

2012-02-10, 04:44	Link #27821
cronnoponno Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011	Quick question: In EP 8, how does Battler asking about Kinzo and Genji's relationship make sense? Does he not know? But he's the GM and I'm assuming made the piece Kinzo and thus everything he could possibly have asked Kinzo would have made him give a rehearsed response. If he did it within earshot of Ange, I'd understand, but I think that he didn't, right? Was he just making a feel with role playing(with a side motivation to let us know about their relationship)?

2012-02-10, 18:00	Link #27827
Kealym Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010	Honestly, the only pieces Battler should know very well at all are George, Jessica, and Shannon, and even THAT'S sort of pushing it since they also barely saw each other, as far as we're told, even when Battler was still part of the family. I do agree though, that Genji dies so often out of both the functionality of having Genji able to ninja around freely as an accomplice (I was almost certain he was alive for most of Alliance...), or the author just moving him out of the way. I could only take Rosa's awful death rate (I believe it's the absolute worst, of the 18) as some sort of spite. Anyhoo, about EP8 - I think most of the "extra scenes" you get for solving the riddles, are things where R07 basically wants to address some matter, before ending the series. Ange is only present for George and Jessica's, who give the most direct explanation she gets for what Battler's game is about. But yeah, EP7 would've been the ideal place for Misadventures in Taiwan.

2012-02-12, 07:43	Link #27832
Cao Ni Ma Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010	Its pretty clear what RK07 wanted to do with Genji. The "traditional" servant role as explained by Carr. The problem is that he goes around and makes Genji a needed accomplice in just about every story. I guess his justification for that would be that he's a robot so he does whatever he's told to do. RK07 just forgot that people like this aren't interesting accomplices or culprits.

2012-02-12, 08:37	Link #27833
Leafsnail Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	Does he need to be an accomplice in the murders, though? I mean he obviously had to be in on Kinzo being dead and the fake Beatrice in episode 2, but other than that he generally just dies early and isn't needed for much else.

2012-02-13, 11:30	Link #27838
Misuzu Dribble.....SHOOTOH! Join Date: Feb 2006	Kanon honestly felt like a waste of a character at the end, even though I loved the "zero in your roulette wheel" scene. When I try to look it up, I see that the age to work in Japan is 15, but I don't know if that was true in the 80's. I also think it's possible that the Ushiromiyas could've found a way around it, seeing as they were wealthy and influential. Since it was done through the orphanage, they could've treated it like an education program or something? It's hard to theorize much without a better understanding of laws at that time. Both the Shkannon relationships felt pretty flat to me, but Ryukishi wrote some Eva/Hideyoshi and Natsuhi/Krauss moments that I thought were absolutely terrific. I wish we'd gotten more of it and a lot less of the younger characters, even though I thought Jessica was kind of underdeveloped when all was said and done.

2012-02-13, 12:25	Link #27839
Oroboro Endless Sorceror Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Wisconsin	In George's defense, I don't think it was so much specific attraction to a 10 year old girl as something more like - "Why is my 10 year old loser cousin effortlessly getting attention from the ladies when they always ignore someone as awesome as me?" ... Of course, it's not the only creepy thing George would've done, so I wouldn't quite put it past him either.

2012-02-13, 12:42	Link #27840
Toku Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011	According to his confession in EP6, George really was attracted to Shannon when he was 17. In his defense, Shannon was actually 13 at the time, not 10. Not that age makes any difference in this case, outside of social standards. Shannon's body was incapable of love back then as well. Therefore, it would have been a platonic relationship regardless. Are you allowed to have a platonic relationship with someone 4 years younger than you? Uhh... I see absolutely no reason why not.