Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Sansker

I think you are taking this way too hard for no real reasons.

So says the person who never has any reasons for anything?

No, there is NO determinator status in the movies, at all. Where's Nanoha's backstory and motivations that we saw in canon?

Where's the scenes of her as a kid realizing that if she works her best to stay out of people's way when things are hard, no one will worry about her? Where's the scene of her realizing that her best isn't good enough and deciding to try harder?

No, that scene in the movie is fail because it comes out of left field, there's no hint of Nanoha being a determinator, there's no build-up, just bam! There!

"I must try harder"

I'm sorry, WHY?! You have no real reason to try harder than what you've been doing because the movies hasn't SHOWN ANY REASON FOR YOU TO BE!

[Sansker]

Well, I get where are you coming from I just don’t think that it matters that much Nanya. I mean you still like StrikerS which not only send Nanoha in to a secondary roll but also do exactly that you are accusing the movie of doing. Things coming out of nowhere or set and resolve in two seconds, minor characters like Yuuno or Chrono appearing even less while others don’t appear at all. I just think you might not see what we get because you are focus on what is not there.

And, to be fair, you always say I am a bad person for doing exactly what you are doing: expressing an opinion that doesn’t seem to follow what most of the rest think so why should you get a free pass and I must be silent? I don’t really care if you think different and I am not going to say your arguments are fake or wrong, just saying that maybe you are looking at this from a bad angle.

[Nanya01]

I mean you still like StrikerS which not only send Nanoha in to a secondary roll but also do exactly that you are accusing the movie of doing

Don't take what I say out of context, Sansker. Nanoha might not be the front and foremost main character in StrikerS, but she *IS* supposed to be in A's, or at the very least one of the main characters. She does NOTHING in the movie to prove that she's one until the final few minutes.

I just think you might not see what we get because you are focus on what is not there.

That's the PROBLEM!

It's NOT THERE!

THAT is EXACTLY why I have problems with this movie! Stuff that's NOT THERE!

THAT'S THE PROBLEM with these movies!

[Cytrus]

Great movie. With the difference between a movie and a tv series, I find basically all changes reasonable, and some additions even improve on the original. Both fun and touching.

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Don't take what I say out of context, Sansker. Nanoha might not be the front and foremost main character in StrikerS, but she *IS* supposed to be in A's, or at the very least one of the main characters. She does NOTHING in the movie to prove that she's one until the final few minutes.

That's the PROBLEM!

It's NOT THERE!

THAT is EXACTLY why I have problems with this movie! Stuff that's NOT THERE!

THAT'S THE PROBLEM with these movies!

Yes but even without those elements the story itself should be able to come out as good so far. The Movie 1st wasn’t a perfect movie, but the original series wasn’t perfect either, and it did capture the idea. This movie might be the same despite lacking some elements that, so far, have not proof to be of any particular problem to understand the story.

Nanoha is the main character, or she was, even if is just because her name is in the title but fans already don’t mind her role being reduce in any incarnation so I guess the Movie 2nd is just going with that. Just saying.

On a more serious note I will have to watch and then decide if the elements that were taken out actually matter in the long run. I mean this movie is shorter than the series and it can’t be helped some stuff is left outside but what it did happen and how it was explain should be consider first before comparing with the series.

Besides I bet they might do a manga to fill the plot holes and everything will be fine.

[Archon_Wing]

Considering Movie 1st:

Nanoha's unyielding determination to resolve the whole Fate issue is evidence enough, so that there were scenes of Fate being pretty annoyed of her interference.

So it's there. You might not like it and may consider it pandering, but it exists and deal with it.

She's been known to dedicate ridiculous amount of efforts to do help people. Watching half an hour of either the tv series or movies makes this exceedingly obvious the moment she saves Yuno and accepts being a magical girl. Why is it her and not Arisa or Suzuka or any random kid? Could any random kid do it? Apparently not. Granted this is watered down in the 1st movie due to the more active Raising Heart and the inexplicable cutting of the Arisa slapping scene, but it already takes a certain type of person to be able to do things like that in the first place.

What about her first fight when she didn't know anything? Does anyone catch on that fast without having any kind of desire to do something?

What about her fight against Fate? She doesn't want any interference, for a fair fight. Does that mean anything? It's not a very huge leap of logic to assume such a person just doesn't back down easily, away from their goal.

2nd A's:

After recovering from being drained, she's pretty much like "let's keep going."

There are many legitimate reasons to point out what was cut out, and how it causes the development to be skewed in a certain direction. That is the real issue, but I'm not going to debate for people. For example, consider why Nanoha and Fate would be so hellbent on saving Hayate, someone they didn't seem to know that well to begin with.

[Kaijo]

To be fair, I understand a bit of what Nanya is saying. There is something to "show" and not "tell." Nanoha's first SLB in A's was more along those lines. It's not so much Nanoha's "never give up" attitude (as many shonen characters and heroes have that); it is the fact that she can back it up when the chips are down. That she has the power. The A's movie cut her power out (and Fate's, too). In the series, despite being heavily injured and RH damaged, and with a freakin' hand sticking out of her chest draining her magic, she still stepped forward and fired. It's seeing her pushed to that limit, being overmatched in some ways, and yet still managing to pull out a win despite the circumstances.

Those qualities are what really make a hero. And that is what the A's movie lacks.

To be honest, I don't think the first movie was too bad, other than the shafting of secondary characters and Nanoha's minimum backstory with Arisa/Suzuka that formed her whole motivation for saving Fate. But the moral of A's tells us that Nanoha is now washed up, that she can't do it anymore when the chips are down. She wasn't able to help anyone during the first encounter, and she wasn't able to stand against Reinforce.

Nanoha has turned from the girl who can, to the girl who can't anymore.

I'm highly expecting now, if a StrikerS movie is made, that Nanoha will continue to lose against Vivio. That Fate will have to show up in order to help her win (and perhaps Hayate, too). Nanoha is losing her spot in her own series, and I can see how frustrating that is. You think Hayate fans were disappointed at Hayate fading into the background? Just wait until it happens to Nanoha. It is one thing to pass a torch to the next generation (Vivio and Thoma). It is quite another to lose it shortly after you've begun. With the lack of backstory and development, Nanoha being a badass and managing to turn the tide of combat was all she had left, really. The A's movie shows that Tsuzuki is not above taking even that away.

So yes, we get her saying she won't give up a few times. But that's telling, not showing. The SLB moment encapsulated perfectly who Nanoha is at her very core, showcasing the lessons she's learned; both in not giving up, and in trusting in her device, to continue to fight even if it looks bad (RH, despite being more talky, *also* loses her two moments of awesomeness in the movie). That, I think, is the source of Nanya's frustration, and I have to admit, a good source of mine. If we can't get Nanoha development and backstory anymore, then at least give us what we came here for: Nanoha being a badass and showing her balls of steel. And no, the white devil scene no longer counts, because she can no longer back that up. Sure, I like combined attacks and team-based attacks, but that's what the end boss was for.

And with the way things are going, that's all the secondary characters will be good for: showing up to do just their little bit at the end. I was really surprised to see Yuuno actually do something at the end, but Arf got a lot of shafting in this regard, too. And we all know she retires soon, so that's her legacy: get kicked once and beaten. I suppose, if that is the extent of her combat prowess, she should retire. What happened to the wolf who said, "Just whose familiar do you think I am?" That was taken away from her in the movie, and we all know why. So what is happening to Nanoha, is merely the infection that has hit everyone else. She no longer amounts to much. Congrats, Nanoha; you managed to kinda survive against Reinforce for a few minutes! That's what a sidekick does; just wait for the hero to show up so your side can actually win.

Yes, I'm being a bit negative and cynical here, and perhaps a bit overdramatic; and I dearly hope I am proven wrong in future movies/materials, but that's the state of things as I see them. The first movie was still mostly intact, and I can give it a decent passing grade because it is almost a better way to introduce people to the series (and then let them watch S1 to have extra stuff filled in). But I can't, in all honesty, recommend this movie to people coming off the first one. I'd have to redirect them to the A's series.

So, in that light, I think I'm gonna have to rate the A's movie a 5 or a 6. Sure, it's got fluff if that is what you were looking for, and I honestly wouldn't have minded fluff. But, in my view, the cost to Nanoha's character, the supposed star of the show, was too high. The A's movie is a good fluff piece, but it lacks the meat the series had. And the sad part is, it didn't have to.

Edit: I'll add this much... I first learned about Nanoha when someone linked a youtube vid of the first Nanoha/Vita fight. They were magical girls, but they were fighting more naturally, instead of just using stock footage wind-up attacks! But what's more, when this golden-haired girl appeared at the end to block Vita's strike, and then formed an energy scythe and very coolly said, "We're friends," I was hooked. That was awesome and cool on so many different levels. This kind of character was a good guy? Honestly, it was Fate, more than Nanoha, that black, mysterious girl who looked like a villain, but was obviously a good guy, that hooked me. I'm probably more sad that Fate doesn't have that impact on me anymore. Sure, I eventually grew to like Nanoha more, but Fate was really the first character that drew me in. And she did it all with just her one short appearance. I wonder when she started to annoy me, rather than impress me...

[Archon_Wing]

Kaijo:

Well, here's where we differ. I could already expect Nanoha's behavior with or without the SLB at the start of A's through season 1. There's no doubt it helps, but I don't think it's as fragile as you might suggest. That being said, I do believe I said that the first confrontation and a lot of the beginning of the movie, did indeed, suck.

And there's a definite reason. Nanoha meets Vita about 15 minutes into the series, in episode 1. Nanoha meets Vita 15 minutes into the movie... and wait that's a fucking problem when you have half the time, isn't it? Simultaneously under and overcooked-- ouch. It's also hard to fathom way these changes were made.

To me, I don't really see why she's any less heroic against Reinforce then she is.

I'm also curious on when Fate started to annoy you. Ms. spotlight stealer, after all, was probably worfed even worse than Nanoha was. For that would be Reinforce and Hayate, and the focus on them was dedicated nearly half the movie to their closure. So, I'd say this move compliments their side a bit better. And for this, I would have to say that one has to watch the tv series before this to make things really work.

The other thing is that I also thought the Wolkies were far more aggressive, and already positioned to attack in the movie. But you know, I suppose ancient tools of war should and will run circles over a few talented nine year olds.

In any case, I don't really spot any inconsistencies. Certain things are less interesting, and for whatever reason they've decided to completely shut off entire tangents even though minimal effort would have made it viable.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Sure, I eventually grew to like Nanoha more, but Fate was really the first character that drew me in. And she did it all with just her one short appearance. I wonder when she started to annoy me, rather than impress me...

This is the most honest thing I've heard you say. Claiming you still liked Fate when you never had anything good to say about her, really was getting old.

Also if I had to take a stab, it was right around the time you grew to like Nanoha more, and started to wonder why she doesn't have a larger percentage of the screen time. And this clearly happened before the first movie, because I remember you complaining about Fate even before then.

And it's pretty silly if it was StrikerS since it's the one series Nanoha actually got decent development while Fate just had some fluff. So... I really do wonder when that was.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Demi.

This is the most honest thing I've heard you say. Claiming you still liked Fate when you never had anything good to say about her, really was getting old.

You'd be surprised how easy it is for people to criticize characters that they like. Even if you have nothing nice to say about them, you can still like them. I mean, look at Aki, as annoying as he is, he still says that Signum's his favorite character.

Hell, I admit I didn't like the Wolkenritter in A's, they still ended up being some of my favorite characters in the franchise afterwords though.

And, yes, I *do* like Fate, hell, the only characters IN the franchise I do NOT like are Precia (abusive parents hits a LITTLE too close to home for me), Graham (I understand his motivations, but I don't like how he did it) and Quattro.

Heck, I've come to like Due and Regius, and neither of them were meant to be likable at all.

Note, I don't consider the brains to be characters.

[Rising Dragon]

Yeah, just because we like a character doesn't mean we have to be blind to any faults they have, Demi.. We can be critical of Fate and not hate her at the same time.

[bhl88]

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

To me, I don't really see why she's any less heroic against Reinforce then she is.

I didn't say she was less heroic.... if I could pin it down, it would be more along the lines of comparing two individuals. One talks big, but gets their ass handed to them most of the time; in other words, they can't back it up. And the other one does say cool lines occasionally, but most definitely *can* back it up with some awesome things that you don't expect they can do. One shows why they are a hero, while the other just talks the game. To me, it feels they are turning Nanoha into the former. She can talk, but she can't back it up.

Thus, to restate the main point: Series Nanoha is the girl who can. Movie Nanoha is the girl who can't. Movie Nanoha is not series Nanoha; completely different continuity. The Nanoha/Arisa/Suzuka 1st grade fight didn't happen there. Remember how the movie 1st manga turned our heroine into Emoha?

I'm also curious on when Fate started to annoy you. Ms. spotlight stealer, after all, was probably worfed even worse than Nanoha was. For that would be Reinforce and Hayate, and the focus on them was dedicated nearly half the movie to their closure. So, I'd say this move compliments their side a bit better. And for this, I would have to say that one has to watch the tv series before this to make things really work.

I'll get to Fate below, but the bolded line is I think the problem I have been having. Especially for a reboot, there shouldn't be a requirement to watch the series before. A reboot movie should be able to stand on its own(unless they are deliberately drawing from the previous continuity ala Star Trek reboot). Even before the movies, I was a little annoyed as I watched, that a lot of information was in manga, booklets, and sound stages, that helped explain things in the series. So now, you have to watch the series to properly understand the movies, but you have to listen to sound stages, and read the manga and booklets and who knows what else, to properly understand things.

The other thing is that I also thought the Wolkies were far more aggressive, and already positioned to attack in the movie. But you know, I suppose ancient tools of war should and will run circles over a few talented nine year olds.

One of the failings is the lack of backstory into the knights. Use to be real people? Or just based on real people? Or completely artificial? We'd need their backstory to understand how they would match up. If they used to be real people, or were based on real people, then it makes sense that talented and powerful 9-year-olds could match them. At least in the series, their memories were fragmented and mostly lost, so even if they had power, I didn't see them as ancient all-powerful killing machines. They were still people with flaws and weak points. At least, that is the only explanation I can come up with, that you have to see them more as people, then as magical killing machines. Because otherwise, giving a guardian knight system emotions doesn't make too much sense, when their only purpose is to attack and gather pages.

Originally Posted by Demi.

This is the most honest thing I've heard you say. Claiming you still liked Fate when you never had anything good to say about her, really was getting old.

Also if I had to take a stab, it was right around the time you grew to like Nanoha more, and started to wonder why she doesn't have a larger percentage of the screen time. And this clearly happened before the first movie, because I remember you complaining about Fate even before then.

And it's pretty silly if it was StrikerS since it's the one series Nanoha actually got decent development while Fate just had some fluff. So... I really do wonder when that was.

No, it wasn't during StrikerS. I do remember liking the growing cast as I watched, and was eager to see each contribute. I was upset when Yuuno, Chrono, and Arf were relatively absent from StrikerS, but even there, I was okay with Fate's development. In fact, I would have preferred to see more of her backstory with Jail, since she apparently already knew him. There was a complexity hinted at that could have been explored. I did dislike most of the fluff of StrikerS, usually when it was pointless and just extended the clock. I actually didn't mind "Fate-mama" too much, even though I thought it was a bit unnecessary.

But the huge cast was something that very much drew me in, and inspired me to write Crisis; I wanted to give every character something. I gave Fate quite a bit of focus there, and later in Future Tense as well. Her close relationship with Nanoha is something I did like, and thus made a special point to address, mostly in a chapter that everyone seemed to really like (only to later watch someone get banned from nanofate for posting the story there).

I think, honestly, it was sometime after that, as I slowly learned that Sette's role was diminished because of Nana, and that there was a huge Fate fanbase(that hated Yuuno with a passion), and a fandom "war" which still really didn't get to me because I wasn't here then. But then I heard of people being mistreated by Fate fans, including friends of mine (and later myself), and then the movie 1st came out, which I was excited for... only to see important secondary characters like Arisa and Suzuka diminished, when they played an important role in Nanoha's past. And I guess it all clicked in my head that Tsuzuki was playing to his Fate fanbase, and thus diminished other characters to make her role more grandiose.

Perhaps, until the movie, I could still deny things as "oh, just the standard fandom antics" and not pay it much heed... until it impacted the story. I watched the rich and varied characters that I loved get further pushed into the background; a well-balanced meal was reduced to popcorn and cotton candy. Sure, they may be tasty, but beware what you ask for. A balanced meal is healthier.

Note that if it was Fate being pushed into the background and another character (other than Nanoha) outshining her, I'd probably become annoyed at that character, too. Fate adds to the rich tapestry that Tsuzuki has created, but so has everyone else. And now it has really begun to affect the title character herself.

And my blame really falls on Tsuzuki, since he is the one making the creative decisions (at least, I believe he is). I understand he wants to make money, but fanatics will buy anything; however you need all your fans to remain viable. If the Chrono and Hayate fans feel their characters are done, they'll wander off. And then the Wolkie fans will go, and so on. We really do need each other.

Anyway, I've probably rambled enough, trying to explore my growing dissatisfaction, heh.

[Sansker]

I finally see the damn thing.

Wasn't as good as I was hoping but still wasn't as bad as other say it might be. I will have to wait and order my ideas but I think the movie easily has a 7 or even an 8 in my book.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I think, honestly, it was sometime after that, as I slowly learned that Sette's role was diminished because of Nana

Come again? Do tell me more.
______

I read everything you said, and I don't feel the need to comment back on much, since this feels more opinion based than fact based. Well, except a few things, but easy enough to read and move on. I've personally never let fan bases or other sources ruin my feelings for a character, but unfortunately it tends to impact a lot of other people. I may seem like the resident Fate fag to most of you, but I really do care for her a lot. If you dislike her, fine, nothing I, or anyone can do to change that...But I still think you go way too far when it comes to criticizing her. The constant jabs at her when I feel they're completely unwarranted just isn't something I can let slide. Defending a character is no different than defending a series, and is of equal importance. Fate wasn't the reason I got aquainted with the Nanoha franchise, but she became a large part of why I stayed.

______

You'd be surprised how easy it is for people to criticize characters that they like. Even if you have nothing nice to say about them, you can still like them. I mean, look at Aki, as annoying as he is, he still says that Signum's his favorite character.

Hell, I admit I didn't like the Wolkenritter in A's, they still ended up being some of my favorite characters in the franchise afterwords though.

And, yes, I *do* like Fate, hell, the only characters IN the franchise I do NOT like are Precia (abusive parents hits a LITTLE too close to home for me), Graham (I understand his motivations, but I don't like how he did it) and Quattro.

Heck, I've come to like Due and Regius, and neither of them were meant to be likable at all.

Note, I don't consider the brains to be characters.

Aki's an anomaly to me and I can't begin to fathom where he comes from. If you have nothing nice to say about them, then what is there to like about them? An imperfect trait can still be a likable trait. But something needs to be there to give reason for liking a character.

Okay, you didn't like the wolkenritter at first, but they did grow on you. Not even I was much into Fate during the first couple episodes she appeared. Also, if I'm rewatching something, I'm not going to have to wait until I get to that crucial point to where I start liking the character again. I already know the characters motivations and circumstances, and what the character later develops into. I'm going to like them from the start.

I don't doubt you do, but Kaijo I feel is a different case. I mean if you don't want someone around at all, doesn't that classify as hate, or at the very least, dislike?

[Rising Dragon]

I don't recall Kaijo ever saying he doesn't want Fate around at all. He just doesn't want her taking up so much screen time that others can't be developed, or others get their own screen time cut in favor of more screen time for Fate.

There is a difference there.

[Demi.]

He has, in the Force thread. But that's besides the point, Kaijo himself admitted to it.

I think this may be going off on a wild tangent now.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Demi.

He has, in the Force thread. But that's besides the point, Kaijo himself admitted to it.

I think this may be going off on a wild tangent now.

No, he said that the best thing for the franchise might be to kill Fate off, since that would cause a lot of different development to happen.

But Tsuki won't do that since he's had a few opportunities to kill off a major character (Shamal, Zafira and Vita in StrikerS, as well as Erio, Vita, Hayate and Signum in Force) but he didn't.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

No, he said that the best thing for the franchise might be to kill Fate off, since that would cause a lot of different development to happen.

But Tsuki won't do that since he's had a few opportunities to kill off a major character (Shamal, Zafira and Vita in StrikerS, as well as Erio, Vita, Hayate and Signum in Force) but he didn't.

"The sooner Fate is gone from the franchise, the better." I believe it was.

I don't even think he was referring to her death.

Maybe these are two different posts we're talking about.

[Rising Dragon]

I just looked through the whole Force thread for Kaijo's posts mentioning Fate, and not once was anything said about getting rid of Fate, in that line or similar.