Macross Delta - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Why does he think now that conquering the entire galaxy via mind-slavery is a worthy goal? And do the Windermerans care what the other races of the star cluster think about their "liberation" via mind-slavery?

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Why does he think now that conquering the entire galaxy via mind-slavery is a worthy goal? And do the Windermerans care what the other races of the star cluster think about their "liberation" via mind-slavery?

Note the line "I think there are Windermereans who actually genuinely believe they're fighting a war of liberation despite the shady stuff that's going on." I wasn't referring to Roid there, I was referring to the Windermereans who believe his propaganda about liberating the cluster. The civilians may not know everything that's going on, and who knows what the soldiers distributing the apples have been told. Maybe something to the effect of "this is just a contingency in case evil NUNS propaganda makes them reject our friendship and support the people who murder our families with fold bombs?"

I think if Roid came straight out and said "I want to use mind control to enslave the lesser races of the cluster!" he wouldn't be getting the kind of support he's currently getting from Windermere's population. There is a reason he's couching it with the kind of language he's been using.

[magnuskn]

Eeeeh, well. I am not so sure about that, as long as he can effectively control Heinz with making him guilt about his dead father's will. The citizens of Windermere seemed to be iffy about the whole "attack the entire galaxy" plan until Heinz declared his support... then they went right along with it.

And I agree that the civilians may not be in the know about the dirty details.

[Triple_R]

My impression of this episode is that the Windermereans aren't strongly sold on what Roid is selling, and in fact a good number probably feel skeptical and uncertain over Roid's war-mongering. However, this is off-set by the Windermereans wanting to support their new young King Heinz (who in turn appears to be supporting Roid).

It's easy to make jokes out of "bring the shouta!", and it is funny (lol), but it honestly does make some sense. People really want to support the new young King, and see him succeed in spite of his small stature and lack of life experience.

If Windermere had a purely democratic/republican government, then Roid's war expansion might actually spark a revolt and a coup d'état. But given the mostly monarchy setup on Windermere, I get it. It usually takes an awful lot before people will turn on their own monarchy.

Honestly, Windermere is an excellent reflection of why wars happened so often in Europe from the middle ages up through WW2. Windermere has a kind of cultural/social thinking very similar to that of a major medieval Europe country, just with futuristic space technology/weaponry. And when such a country is experiencing glory and victory in war, it can be tempting to push for even more and more, ultimately biting off more than can be chewed. Roid may well end up like Napolean, and meet his own Waterloo at some point.

[Darthtabby]

I'm starting to think that the theory about the target of the fold bomb being Windermere's protoculture ruins is most likely correct. The docking structure that replaced the ruins on other planets came out of nowhere on Windermere. (Also the franchise's only other example of a dimension eater didn't produce an anomaly like that scar.) Unfortunately the visuals don't show what's directly under Sigur Valens so I'm not entirely sure.

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[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Eeeeh, well. I am not so sure about that, as long as he can effectively control Heinz with making him guilt about his dead father's will. The citizens of Windermere seemed to be iffy about the whole "attack the entire galaxy" plan until Heinz declared his support... then they went right along with it.

And I agree that the civilians may not be in the know about the dirty details.

Likely as Windermere has been censoring Earth culture and is surrounded by a Fold Fault.

In episode 13 when the Sigur Valens Shirine of Tme was being fixed the Zauberflute was mentioned. This was a reference Macross VF-X2. A Fold Quartz based communication system developed by Critical Path Corporation. The Zauberflute was the cover for the Sound Jamming System which emitted eerie music disrupting targeting computers. It was used by Earth supremacist group Lactence, Zentradi Anti-UN Black Rainbow and Critical Path. Critical Path president Manfred Brando is an associate of Macross Galaxy. He saved Grace from death, kicked Ozma out of NUNS after being punched for treating Ranka badly. After Aegis Focker killed him he became a bodiless AI. So whatever Epsilon Foundation is it’s likely it has a connection to those groups.

Hence the Arad’s surprise of the coronation being real time. Windermere has a fold fault that prevents that usually. The NUN has placed heavy restrictions on harvesting, distribution and possession of Fold Quartz as there is a possibility of it being used on Dimension Eaters.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

What? Why does NUN need to tell their side of the story? Regardless of what NUNs did, that has nothing to do with Windermere's intent for world conquest. Even if NUN did drop a bomb that killed people, that is not a reason for mind control enslavement of the galaxy. To argue otherwise is beyond silly.

The only Windermere argument for world conquest is their perceived racial superiority and desire for dominance. Their anger at NUNs is entirely separate and unrelated.

It would help defeat Windermere's propaganda war, obviously
You can't really win a war without addressing the propaganda
Even if they win, future Windemereans will grow up embracing the same message and become radicalized

If we look at real life history you'll find that people who were humiliated and broken culturally, developing a messiah (everyone else is wrong we are right) complex.
Look at the Nazi (losing WW1, subject to national humiliation) and ISIL (Post Sadam, Sunni feeling of disenfranchisement)
So yes, I think humiliation nurtures these radical sentiments.

and since this is Macross they're not going to use the burn everything to the ground method.
So I think they're going to address that somehow

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Key Board

It would help defeat Windermere's propaganda war, obviously
You can't really win a war without addressing the propaganda
Even if they win, future Windemereans will grow up embracing the same message and become radicalized

and since this is Macross they're not going to use the burn everything to the ground method.

What made you think Windermere would get a chance to be radicalised? There are 4 planets filled with angry aliens who would want to have their revenge on Windermere. You are assuming Windermere citizens are a threat rather than future victims. And it is all deserved.

[Key Board]

because this is Macross and they never use the raze everything to the ground to prevent future uprisings option

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Key Board

because this is Macross and they never use the raze everything to the ground to prevent future uprisings option

NUNs don't. But that doesn't stop the 4 planets of aliens who are not NUNs.

How about we compromise? The 4 planets take turn mind-controlling the Windermere population and make them do anything they wanted.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Key Board

If we look at real life history you'll find that people who were humiliated and broken culturally, developing a messiah (everyone else is wrong we are right) complex.
Look at the Nazi (losing WW1, subject to national humiliation) and ISIL (Post Sadam, Sunni feeling of disenfranchisement)
So yes, I think humiliation nurtures these radical sentiments.

Eh, that is too simplistic. Germany also was pretty much broken and humiliated after World War II, but we got over it. Of course the Marshall plan had a lot to do with it.

The problem to make any good comparison here is that we don't know much about how Windermere was doing economically during the last seven years.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Eh, that is too simplistic. Germany also was pretty much broken and humiliated after World War II, but we got over it. Of course the Marshall plan had a lot to do with it.

The problem to make any good comparison here is that we don't know much about how Windermere was doing economically during the last seven years.

Certainly not spending money on rebuilding. Only buildings not damaged we've seen are the royal castle and Keith's estate.

[Yu Ominae]

Originally Posted by Tak

When you have reaction weaponry and MDEs... do you really need light sabres?

- Tak

Guess we need a Vader moment and a Luke "NOOOOO!!!" reaction to happen.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yu Ominae

Guess we need a Vader moment and a Luke "NOOOOO!!!" reaction to happen.

Frejya: Hayate, I have something to tell you...

Hayate: Hmm... ?

Frejya: I am... (deep breath) your Protoculture's cousin's brother's sister's pet's master's next door Zentradi bartender's mother's lawyer's planetary council-member's galactic neighbor of 30 light years away who just happen to be a relative to Sheryl Nome but not really!

Hayate: What the hell does that make us!?

Frejya: Absolutely nothing! Thats why we can make babies!

- Tak

[Yu Ominae]

Good thing I didn't drink anything when I first saw it.

I almost thought Mirage is gonna be the Vader.