Nanoha Franchise General Discussion Thread

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

"I don't see him" is...

Your...

OPINION!

Keroko, myself, Justin and OTHERS have pointed out that Graham is needed for the plot.

You said "I do not see him as that essential"

THEREFORE!

You are USING YOUR OPINION and dressing it up as fact when, it is, in fact, YOUR OPINION!

He is important (I'm still questioning why the movie removed those three...)

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Frankly, Fate was handled terribly in StrikerS as well. She had this crisis about being a parent to Erio and Caro going on that was completely out of the picture in StrikerS. Instead, she got shoved in the Nanoha/Vivio plot just so they could create a handful of scenes that would be popular with the fans. It's not until we read the manga and listen to the sound stages that suddenly this subplot surfaces, and expands not only on Fate, but Erio and Caro as well.

Seriously, a lot of those NanoFateVivio scenes should have been the ones delegated to the sound stage, while the FateErioCaro scenes should have been in the anime.

Hayate could have gotten a lot of screentime developing the TSAB structure some more. Perhaps even showing her handling investigations, negotiations and throwing around strategies, while she could have gotten a lot of combat scenes (and for pitty's sake, at least a transformation scene) during the Cradle battle.

Well, like I've said, many if not all of the characters were not handled well in StrikerS or at the very least failed to live up their potential. Personally, I thought only Nanoha did well, and sadly can't really write more than a paragraph about it since it looks fine on paper but it just doesn't go far enough.

Part of it is due to too many characters, but it's not the only anime with many characters. The amount of finite screentime is still no excuse. Personally, the whole Vivio thing brought up just shows that the franchise has many fucked up priorities. They seem to want to be able to please everyone at the expense at telling a story. It is annoying that they introduced a bunch of characters, and when they were about to go somewhere suddenly had the old crew coming back and that's fine. But then we go ahead and after StrikerS introduce even more characters. This does none of the characters any good.

If they're going to really break the plot for A's in the movie like that, well, I can't really say I have any faith in Tsuzuki whatsoever. Not that I've had much at all.

It would have been so much better to divide StrikerS into 2 separate shows, but what's done is done. The thing about the first two seasons is that they worked with much less, but got more done.

[bhl88]

Strikers the Movie RF6 side and Numbers side. That's the only thing left. Three hours for both.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

It would have been so much better to divide StrikerS into 2 separate shows, but what's done is done.

I've actually thought about that, doing Strikers in like 3 seasons... Or at least three parts stretched over the season.

1 season for the Forwards, some world building, building some stuff up with minor conflicts.

1 season focusing more on the bad guys and political nature of the world, giving more screen-time to the Numbers, Jail, Regius, Zest and their backstories...

final season would be more combat oriented, the gadgets only there to allow for more explosions and more personal conflicts between the Forwards and Numbers.

That's just me though.

[Sansker]

I am saying is what I think Nanya, what else do you want from me? That is my interpretation of the facts and even if others here say I am just making things up and I am over all idiot who just doesn’t get it, I already have explain why I see things this way already. You don’t agree and that is finding now I will keep my opinion. My arguments are mine and the fact is the same. Now you reach other conclusions but that is fine.

You are all just not seeing my point because you don’t see pass Graham or even Hayate at some point. They are just roles in the plot, not characters that we can really get attach or are as strong characterized as others like Nanoha or Fate. Keroko insist on calling Graham’s role essential and I say it really isn’t Yes, he will need to be there for this story to make sense but the story can also work without him and be pretty much the same so I really call that to be not that essential to the overall plot. Now here there is no real contradiction because I mean the plot and no my opinion, your opinion and still the same fact: Graham is part of this plot no matter what I say. No I no longer know how else I can say this Nanya, but is done.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Sansker

I can say this Nanya, but is done.

You know what? You're right, it is done.

And I'm done with you.

[Sansker]

Ok, so to get us back on track… my opinion your opinion, subjective there.

[Justin_Brett]

Some opinions can be wrong.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Some opinions can be wrong.

But are still points of view and unless those get unavoidably proven wrong by solid facts they are just as valid as any other opinion. Easier to say than to do because even then fact can be discussed.

I'm of the firm believing no opinon should be shunned o_o

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Some opinions can be wrong.

Not really when what matter is how we see things so really no opinion is "right" or "wrong" when we just take in to consideration the same elements and we different conclusions, like we do here.

[Justin_Brett]

He's entitled to his opinion, but it's already been proven it wouldn't work out the way he thinks numerous times.

Most of the time I see that claim come up, it's when someone is losing an argument.

[Sansker]

I am not, but I think the argument lost itsef and started to be more about taking the opinion as fact.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

He's entitled to his opinion, but it's already been proven it wouldn't work out the way he thinks numerous times.

Most of the time I see that claim come up, it's when someone is losing an argument.

That and they can't admit to the fact that they lost and they're just annoying people.

[Kaijo]

I'm usually for letting people speak their opinion, too. But what we've been dealing with isn't opinion... it is incorrect facts. In an effort to inform correctly, we have been correcting his false information. A person is entitled to their own opinion; they are not entitled to their own facts. Aki, do you really want us to dig up all the factually incorrect things he's said over the past week? Do you really want to support that?

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

That and they can't admit to the fact that they lost and they're just annoying people.

And when this was about winning or loosing?

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Sansker

And when this was about winning or loosing?

This. It's wrong tryng to gang on someone just because said person's opinion opposses the one supported by the majority. All points of view are valid and the closest i had seen someone getting to "win" is by acknowledging both opinions hold some ground and both parties reaching a middle ground ...or both hold on their own points of view while respecting the other.

Otherwise it's just an endless cycle of arguments and counterarguments. There is no "absolute truth" or "ultimate fact" that cannot be argued against. Everything is relative.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

You are all just not seeing my point because you don’t see pass Graham or even Hayate at some point.

Oh, I'm sorry, I though we were talking about Graham's relevance to the plot.

But then, even if I look beyond Graham... nope, still essential to the plot.

Originally Posted by Sansker

They are just roles in the plot, not characters that we can really get attach or are as strong characterized as others like Nanoha or Fate.

.... Yes? And? What does attachment have to do with relevance to the plot?

Originally Posted by Sansker

Keroko insist on calling Graham’s role essential and I say it really isn’t Yes, he will need to be there for this story to make sense but the story can also work without him and be pretty much the same so I really call that to be not that essential to the overall plot. Now here there is no real contradiction because I mean the plot and no my opinion, your opinion and still the same fact: Graham is part of this plot no matter what I say. No I no longer know how else I can say this Nanya, but is done.

.... Except the overall plot doesn't work if you just remove Graham.

Again, short list. No Graham means:

No Hayate living alone.
No Book of Darkness responding to Hayate's loneliness.
No Hayate wishing to just live with the Wolkenritter.
No Lieze twins.
No stopping Chrono from arresting Shamal with the book.
No stopping Nanoha from blasting Vita into submission.
No stopping the Fate/Signum fight.
No stopping Nanoha and Fate talking sense into the Wolkenritter on the hospital roof.
No completion of the Book of Darkness by absorbing the knights.
No tricking Hayate into thinking she was betrayed by her friends.
No Hayate triggering the Book's activation in despair.
No Durandal to seal the book's movement to allow the transfer.

The only way to fix these plotholes is to rewrite them. But if you are forced to rewrite scenes, that just shows how essential the scenes, and thus the character that steered them, are.

Nothing subjective about it.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

This. It's wrong tryng to gang on someone just because said person's opinion opposses the one supported by the majority. All points of view are valid and the closest i had seen someone getting to "win" is by acknowledging both opinions hold some ground and both parties reaching a middle ground ...or both hold on their own points of view while respecting the other.

Otherwise it's just an endless cycle of arguments and counterarguments. There is no "absolute truth" or "ultimate fact" that cannot be argued against. Everything is relative.

I normally don't respond to you, Aki, and what you posted is the reason why I don't like to.

The problem is, Sansker is saying "Graham isn't that important to the plot, remove him." when that's a total, bold faced LIE.

As Keroko JUST pointed out, Graham is needed to the plot, otherwise you have to RE-WRITE THE WHOLE DAMN THING!

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Again, short list. No Graham means:

No Hayate living alone.
No Book of Darkness responding to Hayate's loneliness.
No Hayate wishing to just live with the Wolkenritter.
No Lieze twins.
No stopping Chrono from arresting Shamal with the book.
No stopping Nanoha from blasting Vita into submission.
No stopping the Fate/Signum fight.
No stopping Nanoha and Fate talking sense into the Wolkenritter on the hospital roof.
No completion of the Book of Darkness by absorbing the knights.
No tricking Hayate into thinking she was betrayed by her friends.
No Hayate triggering the Book's activation in despair.
No Durandal to seal the book's movement to allow the transfer.

The only way to fix these plotholes is to rewrite them. But if you are forced to rewrite scenes, that just shows how essential the scenes, and thus the character that steered them, are.

Nothing subjective about it.

My point is that Graham is just the trigger to all those events. Nothing about his personality or character make him pivotal to fill such role and those elements (yes, ALL of them) could be justified in a myriad of ways. Take Nanoha by example, like Graham, she's a catalyst for several events to happen but her characterization and intervention was pivotal for some key events, you can't just replace Nanoha with something else and expect the story to function the same (well, at least until FORCE were every Pre-StrikerS character is totally expendable xDU). Graham? not so much, you can put about just another General with familiar and make the story work ...heck we don't even need a general at all for that.

Rewrite without Graham is not that hard to pull off, his characterization was so partial that could put anyone with a mustache and blame him for the events of A's and it will work like 90% the same xDU.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

I normally don't respond to you, Aki, and what you posted is the reason why I don't like to.

The problem is, Sansker is saying "Graham isn't that important to the plot, remove him." when that's a total, bold faced LIE.

As Keroko JUST pointed out, Graham is needed to the plot, otherwise you have to RE-WRITE THE WHOLE DAMN THING!

Added now is that the movie doesn't have Graham in it and it looks like that would be a big plothole (aka: how does a disabled person take care of herself... and a 9 year old at that)