2011-08-03, 22:44 | Link #23561 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
|
It was agreed on beforehand that the condition for Erika having those seals, that she would tell BATTLER ''as soon'' as she placed them, and then she literally goes ''I know I was supposed to tell you earlier, but it slipped my mind, oops, sorry! That wouldn't.....well...I was just wondering if the tale would be a little different had you known that....''
That was such bs, Erika should have been able to be a bitch without doing this, when you show that you're willing to go so far to break rules and honor to troll, you're not a very good troll. |
2011-08-03, 23:10 | Link #23562 | ||||||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||||||
2011-08-03, 23:13 | Link #23563 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
|
No, Erika and Dlanor made it clear that they would tell him as soon as they placed the seals, hang on I'm going to get the scene so I can get some quotes.
Dlanor: ''UNDERSTOOD.... Lady Erika will also retroactively adjust her movements, starting before the discovery of the first twilight, and taking into account that the application of this privilege is now POSSIBLE. ......as soon as these changes take affect in the progression of the game, they will be reported to the game MASTER.'' Sealing Battler's room would have changed the progression of the game regardless of what logic you try to use, because even if Battler was alive, or dead, anyone going in or out of the room would have obviously had to know about the tapes resistance, Piece-Battler would never have been able to leave his room had he known the tape was still there, and even if he wasn't the culprit, no culprit is going to walk into a door with a detectives tape on it. Erika: ''Actually, there's something I need to apologize for...'' Either Beato or Battler: ''Apologize....?'' Erika:It's about those retroactive seals, .....Actually, I have already sealed one place. I apologize for taking so long to report this to you'' Battler: ''You already sealed something?....In other words, you've already used up all three rooms worth?'' Erika: ''Yes I promised I'd report it right away, but I completely forgot until just now, you have my sincere apologies.''(this is obviously a lie) And Erika wouldn't completely break the game unless she did it within the rules, anyone can break a game when they break obvious rules. If I wanted to troll someone playing chess, I wouldn't neglect telling them I took one of their pawns or something when they left to the bathroom, instead I would probably move one piece back and fourth constantly and have them complain, it still follows the rules(unless this rule is made beforehand), and it's even more of a troll if I end up winning. But would you honestly feel any shame if someone pulled such bs on you in a chess game, or any game for that matter? No you'd kick their ass and not play a game with them ever again, would your will to play chess be crushed after facing such an unfair defeat? No, there is no game breaking this way. It just makes you think ''Yeah, you might have broke the game, but that was a pretty weak and pathetic way to do it'', I just can't see her as a superior intellectual rapist if this is how she plays, my image of her was just sort of ruined after that. Also, Battler does NOT get permission to rewrite the tale, he does it as soon as he gives Erika the tape without any agreement, Dlanor asks if they should treat the tape as if they had got it from Kumasawa, and Battler says ''Yes I'll rewrite the tale now''. The narrative between Ange and Featherine also explained that if a magicians trick is seen-through, they're allowed to change the trick as long as the result is matched, it's just hard to think of a different scenario so quickly when you've already planned for one. Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-08-03 at 23:45. |
2011-08-03, 23:38 | Link #23564 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
I also didn't actually understand his idea of "I only hear complaining and no voices from mystery fans...therefore there doesn't seem to be any group of readers knowledgable about mystery archetypes, so I need to treat my readers like toddlers in that department"... Yes, I get it, many people were and still are bitchy about certain parts of Umineko and it's not like the locked room lecture or the cat box parable weren't fun the way they were explained in the plot...but I think if the reader doesn't get there, it shouldn't be the authors duty to spoonfeed it to him. I still think the metaworld and it's characters would have been much more compact and streamlined if he had stayed with his Virgilius idea... |
|
2011-08-04, 00:28 | Link #23566 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
|
Well, I don't see how Erika could not have known this ahead of time, does Battler really have no knowledge of the fact that if he tried to emulate his tale, his piece would have noticed that there was tape on the door? Or can Erika actually do magic and only have it take affect as soon as she announces it?
|
2011-08-04, 00:31 | Link #23567 | ||||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
BATTLER DID NOT ACTUALLY COERCE OR DEMAND THAT SHE REPORT THINGS. She made the promise herself, and nothing binds her to it. Quote:
And the whole reason Erika did all this is to prove that Battler is incompetent. Quote:
Quote:
Magic doesn't exist. Battler can't just walk into a fictional universe he created and conjure up details he didn't already write, so if Erika made an edit behind his back she needs to reveal it.
__________________
|
||||
2011-08-04, 01:03 | Link #23569 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
|
Quote:
The wording you provided was: "......as soon as these changes take affect in the progression of the game, they will be reported to the game MASTER.'' ...which is grammatically incorrect ("affect" should be "effect"). So I double-checked it myself and it turns out that you misread after all. The correct wording is: "......as soon as these changes affect the progression of the game, they will be reported to the game MASTER" The progression of the Game is as Battler tells the story, even if his narrative provides information on past events. In other words, even if someone was confirmed to be in a certain room at 1:00 A.M. and the story is currently at 3:00 A.M., no one actually left the room at any time between 1:00-3:00 A.M. until Battler confirms that the room is empty. Whether she sealed the room or not, the progression of the Game was not affected. In this regard, she did not technically cheat. Honestly, Beato's Kanon is dead and Shannon is dead bullshit is more like cheating than this. Quote:
|
||
2011-08-04, 01:14 | Link #23571 | |
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Also what Wanderer said.
__________________
|
|
2011-08-04, 01:26 | Link #23572 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
|
Quote:
The student should really be trolling the teacher by being outright smarter than her, using logic to the morals she tells the class to believe in, and basically making her job much harder by giving her a true mental assault, anyone could of thought of doing the above example. Anyone who calls themselves an intellectual rapist and stops at the above, makes me sad, and I guess that works, but it just sort of ruined my opinion of her. Like in Kindergarden, if a teacher tries to explain that a Crime Fighter fights crime to make the streets peaceful, a good troll would be for the student to then say ''Then what does a freedom fighter fight, huh?!?'' The teacher would have no logical comeback to this, so she'd have to completely revise herself and explain the differences between the two, thus being outwitted by a student. I guess she wasn't supposed to be the MAJOR villain though, and she did a good job for the position she was in. |
|
2011-08-04, 01:49 | Link #23573 | ||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||
2011-08-04, 01:59 | Link #23574 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
|
How is acting like a sport, then turning around and being a bitch cunning? That doesn't take cunning, at best, it takes good acting, anyone could do that.(Yeah I just looked up cunning saying this wasn't very smart for me to say.)
Plus, I haven't played D&D, but I watched Jan's witches&woodlands short(which I was incredibly impressed with), so I don't understand what you're saying too much about the D&D analogy, but that also doesn't sound like a nice way to play, it involves the same level of deceit and trickery that I was talking about. In Witches&Woodlands I like Erika more, because she played by everything without using cheap tactics, and put up a hell of a fight(and if it weren't for them ''using magic on the dice'', she would have totally succeeded). I forgot the technical name of the spell Dlanor used there to reveal any doors, but if Dlanor had used the spell, and Beatrice ''forgot to mention one'' and tried to treat it as if it existed later by just saying ''sorry there was another door'', wouldn't that be similar to what Erika does here? Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-08-04 at 02:17. |
2011-08-04, 02:13 | Link #23575 | |||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Quote:
A rules lawyer is basically someone who follows the letter of the games' rules instead of the spirit, and effectively looks for loopholes in order to get what they want to the detriment of everyone else's fun. Erika's behavior in Jan-Poo's story is Rules Lawyerism, except it's not-so-shitty because he didn't want to leave Beatrice a legitimate means of weaseling out. The point of both actions, however, was the same: To prove that the Gamemaster was incompetent and no good; if they were as capable as they claimed they should be able to handle Erika's actions in stride, right? The problem is that the Game being played in Umineko doesn't really have rules of Ryukishi has to sort of wing it and go with whatever is dramatic at the time, which works for the most part since everyone involved is some sort of pansdimensional being but in situations like this it's pretty bullshit. I think the actual core of your complaint is more along the lines of: How the fuck did Erika actually get away with it? Genius Battler explains this nicely. I don't think this is really anything different from how Erika's ever behaved. How much different is it from basically using magical powers to get her way in EP5 and then RIGGING THE COURTS to get the answer she wants, to the point of getting Red Truths she wanted and for even DENYING A RED TRUTH that hurt her theory? SHIT, I'd take what she did in EP6 over literally ignoring Natsuhi is pure and faithful as if it was never said. Quote:
__________________
|
|||
2011-08-04, 02:35 | Link #23576 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
|
Well, the thing is, the way the Game works is all kind of murky to begin with. For example, when Battler played the human side, meta-Battler could not share information or control piece-Battler, but meta-Erika seems to be completely one and the same with piece-Erika. And killing all of the play-deaders in ep6 without the Game master knowing seems pretty inconsistent to me too. Although it made for a splendid twist for other reasons.
Anyway, the meta-stuff especially doesn't even have a clear set of rules... in fact it only gets more confusing as the story progresses. Even red text is often wordplay bullshit. |
2011-08-04, 07:21 | Link #23578 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
|
As far as I interpreted, during the locked Battler room a new rule was introduced. In that rule everything happened instantaneously, like a rapid fire session. I think they said as much. Now the point is how did Erika kill them without Battler knowing? As long as the possibility of an action occurring is greater than 0 , then it might as well have happened. She came up with the idea that she murdered all of those in the rooms, since there was no way Battler could make the possibility that she murdered them 0 it rose to become a red truth.
The way Battler carefully worded his red truth regarding the "murders" in the rooms left Erika an opening she later exploited. Had Battler stated that there would not be any murders in those rooms after the doors where opened , Erika just wouldn't have been able to kill them. Well, I mean she could have drag them out of the room and stabbed them but... |
2011-08-04, 08:15 | Link #23579 | ||
Senior Member
|
Quote:
It's understandable on a professional level, but I still think he gave up too soon. It's not like they weren't there, I think it's just that the people who didn't understand were louder. But yeah, he admitted himself that the root of that "problem" probably was that he went major and started thinking more about the reader than about what he wanted to do. I kinda liked his curry shop metaphor. Quote:
But I agree, the Kanon is dead/Shannon is dead thing was a little too murky...but had he done it otherwise it would have been revealed from the start. It's more of an inherent problem of the concept of red text and less a problem of the story...for me. And I think there could be an explanation for why Battler couldn't intervene and Erika can. Beatrice's game was completely under her command, she didn't give Battler any rights to effectively highjack the game except for maybe a few keypoints where we can't be perfectly sure...like the finale of EP4. But Erika was inserted on Bern's plead to Lambda (who served as a gamemaster then) and the games from that point on where created in a different way. Battler just carried that system over to his game and laid a trap for Erika in making her feel too secure. It is kinda important that the meta world in EP2-4 and 5 & 6 and 7 & 8 are each pretty different things, I think. They have different people involved, both in the metaworld itself and in the real world that is represented by it. |
||
2011-08-04, 08:20 | Link #23580 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
For example, while Piece and Meta-Erika appear to be the same person, you have to be open to the possibility that they are not. For the purposes of derailing the story, Erika might well just be appending to her board character actions she could have taken, in order to construct a logical conundrum. The seals could be seen to be the same way; we never actually see Piece-Erika seal anything, Battler just gives her assurances that the seals she selects will not be broken. If Dawn is based on a "real" story, the odds are the Erika of that story did not seal any rooms and probably did not kill anyone either. And you raise the most obvious problem: How could Erika do something without the Game Master knowing? All the evidence of previous Game Masters and the information given about the BATTLER-form of Battler itself suggest he is transcendent and omniscient. How can he not know what's happening in his own story? There's really only two explanations I can think of that make any sense:
__________________
|
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|