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jjblue1 · 2012-10-26, 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kealym

On George in EP3, hell, the part that's always gotten me isn't that he's dead (Yasu and her shenanigans, or whatevs), but the part where Nanjo was all "Yeah, George - jump out the second story window! Go gaze upon the face of your recently murdered fiancee. I'll totes cover for you." It is SO inexplicable.

Well, I prefer to think that Nanjo told him he was having second thoughts on Shannon being really dead and George, as desperate as he was to have Shannon back, forgot to turn his brain on and blindly believed whatever Nanjo were to say because it would be better than the truth.

On a second thought Nanjo might have had second thoughts and hoped that, if George were to talk to Yasu she would stop and then send him to do just so. However this instead causes Yasu to have to kill George whom she might have possibly wanted to leave alive till the end so she, in retaliation, kill Nanjo when it wasn't necessary anymore (she didn't need sacrifices anymore and she could have waited for the bomb to go KABOOM) maybe in fear he would tattle out the truth to someone else.

Valkama · 2012-10-26, 17:45

I noticed something. All the points in EP3 where Beatrice is present is the same spot where Nanjo is and or Nanjo could easily be. What if in EP3 Nanjo = Beatrice.

1st Twilight: Suppose we use Battler's solution, Nanjo would have the key and could easily have backstabbed Yasu at night.

2nd Twilight: Had no Alibi.

George and the Window: Nanjo supposedly let him out. Beatrice Supposedly let him out.

Beatrice Reunited George with Shannon: Nanjo could have killed him to "Reunite" Them.

Nanjo dies infront of the room where Jessica is. Beatrice is defeated infront of the room where Jessica is.

Nanjotrice Theory go.

GuestSpeaker · 2012-10-26, 18:42

Quote:

that gold truth represents Beatrice's power of endless magic in the same way that red and blue truth represent Lambda and Bern's power

I never understood why Bern's power of miracles was the same as the human power of proposing something is possible, but I must admit the other two colours work well.

In regards to the rain, can someone provide a situation where the culprit would have to have been wet and had no time to dry off? I am sure there is one, I just can't really think of it.

And as an aside:

It is hard to determine if there was any sort of murder game or not, but in my mind it doesn't really matter to this part of the theory. Either by them solving it or Yasu simply deciding to help, the existence of the gold was made clear (by the way, I always wondered if it were truly that big a pile. All the fights over it and just logic would dictate there was probably a lot of money's worth, but not that massive mountain).

I was trying to think of reasons for Battler to be in one tunnel and Eva to be alone in another. Using themes from the story and Ryu's interview stating the adults did something, I had an idea that doesn't involve multiple paranoia mass murders (which always sat poorly with me).

All through the series we have seen the cousins, and specifically Battler, leave the adults in disgust when they argue over inheritance. I was thinking it was likely the adults were shown the gold, and they fought over it. Then I couldn't imagine why Eva would leave that sort of argument, and all I could think of is the series has shown us from ep 1 Eva worrying she is a bad and selfish mother, and George promising to fight for Shannon. So I wonder if some heated words weren't exchanged between Eva and George. Why Hideyoshi would let her go off alone is questionable, but all I have is gold for that one, or maybe she herself sent him back to make sure they got some.

How the bomb gets set off is a further question, but anything that comes of that question is pure speculation, though we have received two possible hints: the shattering of the clock and screen shown often in loading, and more strongly, the scene where it was made clear the adults might not trust Yasu's claims as to whether the clock was on or off. The only thing about this is Our Confession sort of says that Kinzo never really sat around playing with some clock switch and everyone's lives, and that that was an embellishment made to convince Natsuhi.

This vicious behavior by the adults and the way Kyrie and Rudolf had been acting before dying might have been what Eva wanted to keep from Ange, with the fact even she doesn't know what happened in the last few minutes being a further blow.

All theories are possible in a catbox.

Joeyscraggy · 2012-10-26, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkama

The thing I don't get about Eva being the Culprit for EP3 is why she would kill George. That has never made sense to me. Maybe if George attacked her she would injure him but she definitely wouldn't kill him.

I always interpreted that scene like this: George goes to Shannon, Shannon "revives" when George is crying over her to reassure him, and tell him they will be together forever on the Golden Land or something like that. Comes Eva and sees them hugging and goes all "Bitch, stop hugging mah boy or i'll kill you". She points her rifle at her but George gets in her way and bam! Joji is dead and his body falls over Shannon, who either faints or fakes her dead using George's blood.
Then Eva cries over her son's death, and supposes Shannon is dead, not realizing the truth. Shannon recovers and goes to protect Jessica as Kanon, then kills Nanjo and dies.

I guess Eva's localization at George death can deny this, but I can't remember where she was exactly, so there's my 2-cents

Wanderer · 2012-10-26, 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

All through the series we have seen the cousins, and specifically Battler, leave the adults in disgust when they argue over inheritance. I was thinking it was likely the adults were shown the gold, and they fought over it. Then I couldn't imagine why Eva would leave that sort of argument, and all I could think of is the series has shown us from ep 1 Eva worrying she is a bad and selfish mother, and George promising to fight for Shannon. So I wonder if some heated words weren't exchanged between Eva and George. Why Hideyoshi would let her go off alone is questionable, but all I have is gold for that one, or maybe she herself sent him back to make sure they got some.

Are you basing this off of that one hidden frame from when Ange reads Eva's diary which has George looking upset?

RandomAvatarFan · 2012-10-26, 21:53

I don't remember any hidden frames or anything? All remember is Ange looking into Eva's Diary and then jumping off the building.

Wanderer · 2012-10-26, 23:29

It's in the game data, but isn't programmed to show up when you actually play the game. That's what I meant by "hidden".

But yeah, in that sequence of pictures (when Ange reads Eva's diary) there's a couple more pictures in the game data. One is of outside the mansion with George looking mad, and another is of Natsuhi, looking worried, standing in front of Beatrice's portrait. I don't remember if there were more.

Jan-Poo posted it a while back in this post, but the picture link is dead now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I don't know if someone already made this

Anyway I put together the various frames that are shown when Ange reads Eva's diary in EP8. I included also the frames that still appear in the code, and still exist among the graphic files, but that were later removed.

Note that all of these are already bmp you can find in the game, they aren't screenshots I made.

Spoiler for Big file:

Wanderer · 2012-10-27, 08:50

Finished translating Our Confessions:

Spoiler for After-discussion between Dlanor and Beatrice:

Lastly is the epilogue. You may remember it as "Dlanor's forward", but that's not what it is; it's actually the epilogue. LyricalAura's already done this translation so I feel no need to translate it again myself. It's been around for a long time and I take no credit for it. I include it here only for the sake of completion.

Spoiler for Dlanor's epilogue:

And that's that. I will later set up a blog or something to host the entire, fully compiled translation.

chronotrig · 2012-10-27, 17:20

@Renall:

Spoiler for size:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

The structure of the argument sort of doesn't even need the gold. You could still use it, but I think it best saved for the end if it shows up anywhere at all. This is how I would structure the argument:

Erika presents her insanely detailed alibi setup for 24:00 to 1:00, indicating that nobody but Natsuhi could have been involved. Battler questions how the bodies could have disappeared later given that Natsuhi's position in the morning was known (thus, how could she be the culprit).
Erika proposes that Kinzo moved the bodies. At this point, she makes some admission about Kinzo which is designed to explain away that nobody could have seen him but Natsuhi at any time. Perhaps something that would require Kinzo have been in Natsuhi's room at the time they were solving the epitaph, to establish him as her accomplice.
Battler counters with the theory that he committed the murders after 1:00. Erika assures him that based upon her observation, it was impossible for the crime to have happened after 1:00.
Battler instead proposes that the deaths did not happen during the 1:00 to the discovery period at all. Erika argues this is impossible because Battler's viewpoint is objective.
Battler argues that his viewpoint is not objective because Erika is the detective instead of him. Erika demands evidence that this is true.
Battler points out seeing Kinzo, which should not have happened. He explains that either he did see Kinzo and Erika's admission about Kinzo's behavior and location is wrong, or he didn't see Kinzo and his viewpoint is therefore non-objective. Since Erika still believes Kinzo is integral to her theory, she permits that his viewpoint be non-objective.
Battler therefore concludes an equally-valid theory that the "crime" was faked with his participation, and nobody died until after the discovery, opening the possibility that Natsuhi isn't guilty.
Erika, however, points out that her theory about Natsuhi and Kinzo is equally valid, so the two are only ever able to reach a total stalemate.
Battler now attacks the notion that Kinzo could be alive, with Erika demanding something to support this. Battler suggests that it is possible to present a corpse which might be identifiable as Kinzo. Erika counters that there is no objective way to verify this. Battler argues that Rokkenjima is a closed state, and the corpse must belong to somebody who ought to be on the island. He argues that if everyone else is alive, the corpse cannot be anyone but Kinzo.
OPTIONAL: Erika counters that everyone might not be alive, but that even if they are, there exists "no possible way for a human to say the corpse is Kinzo's."
OPTIONAL: Battler now uses the gold truth, demonstrating that there is a way for a human to say that. Erika is unable to understand, but all the witches acknowledge that Battler is right. Nobody tells Erika despite her insistent demands.
On the weight of the evidence, Lambda and Dlanor conclude Battler's theory to have greater validity than Erika's. Erika understands why she lost (her theory is flimsier than Battler's), but doesn't understand what Battler was doing with the gold truth.

It's only slightly different, but by changing the structure and adding more meat to the Kinzo argument, it allows the gold to function as a capstone that merely demonstrates Battler's mastery of understanding rather than permitting him to continue making an argument he probably could've made anyway. Is it less dramatic? Probably. However, it also works more appropriately here as a "finishing move" as it's been described in interviews. The fact that he does it is what causes Lambda to finally just admit the whole thing was silly and he's been right the whole time. It also makes the gold unnecessary; Battler's theory seems more complete than Erika's even without it, so it's not something that must be relied upon. However, by everyone's agreement with it, Erika's theory is entirely and finally discarded.

Well, it's great that you're making theories. However, I think this illustrates the point you're missing here.

You constructed that theory by reading over EP5 after you finished it and finding clues. You had to think very carefully over all you read and build a "story" of your own.

If Ryuukishi had included that part of the "answer" directly in his ending, you wouldn't have gotten the chance to do that bit of reasoning. It would only be a matter of tying up a few loose ends and grading Ryuukishi on his work, rather than actually playing the game he's made. Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you had this whole theory ready to go before reading the end of the Hidden Tea Party. It's thanks to Ryuukishi's writing style that you were able to figure it out for yourself.

Also, as for the theory itself, I think Dlanor would have asked a lot more questions, considering that you've shown no evidence that the theory actually happened (only some indirect evidence that it might have been possible), and since there's no explanation as to motive, either for Battler or the people who went along with his plan. Erika covered both of these bases in her theory, so at least at the moment, hers is still superior.

GuestSpeaker · 2012-10-27, 21:12

Quote:

Are you basing this off of that one hidden frame from when Ange reads Eva's diary which has George looking upset

Not at all, I had forgotten that. I am more basing it on firstly the nature of loving a servant when you have the better part of an arranged marriage waiting for you, and of course Episodes 1 through 6 (especially 6). Even in the 8th game I am sure there was some "noooooo Georgi you can't love a servant" joke.

But mostly the fact the George often talks about telling his mother (or at least tells Shannon about it) and we are shown a rather dramatic interpretation of that event in ep 6. Plus there is a certain tragedy to Eva getting angry and telling him to go off and do what he likes (see: Rosa and Maria in the rain) to feel first regret, then like a selfish mother, and then to have him blown to pieces.

Renall · 2012-10-28, 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, it's great that you're making theories. However, I think this illustrates the point you're missing here.

Don't tell me what "points" you think I'm missing. It's so pretentious. Stop being such a condescending dick and just say you disagree with people if you disagree. You act like you know something more than you're letting on and you don't know a damn thing more than anybody else.

And if you do, for the love of God just come out with it and stop with the intellectual masturbation. At least I have the courtesy to do my masturbation in public.

Also, it wasn't a theory, which you would have noticed if you'd bothered to actually read it instead of just quoting it to talk down to me. It was a rewrite suggestion. It's not a theory because it's not an attempt to explain the work itself, but to restructure it.

Quote:

You constructed that theory by reading over EP5 after you finished it and finding clues. You had to think very carefully over all you read and build a "story" of your own.

If Ryuukishi had included that part of the "answer" directly in his ending, you wouldn't have gotten the chance to do that bit of reasoning. It would only be a matter of tying up a few loose ends and grading Ryuukishi on his work, rather than actually playing the game he's made. Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you had this whole theory ready to go before reading the end of the Hidden Tea Party. It's thanks to Ryuukishi's writing style that you were able to figure it out for yourself.

Oh wow, no shit? I have to read a work to reason about the work that I've read? I've been doing it wrong all this time reasoning about works that don't exist yet and hoping somebody would write them!

What are you even talking about?

Are you honestly suggesting that his refusal to ever answer anything somehow makes the experience better? Are you genuinely of the belief that leaving the "game" open all the time is better than at least clearing up what's gone on and leaving tantalizing bits for moving forward? Because that's all we need. Bits. It was criminal to begin with to cut the story off and acknowledge that he doesn't really care all that much anymore about coherent lower-level narrative.

Now personally, I think his "writing style" is over-meandering crap and all it did was waste time and intentionally try to confuse everyone. End is nothing more than a few nuggets of interest in a sea of filler. I understand the personal situation may not have been best for him, but he was the one who chose to soldier on with it and release it. There are much better ways to have written End, but quite honestly I think it was a misfire to begin Chiru in the fashion he did to begin with.

Still, trying to offer constructive criticism here with minor suggestions, while addressing the stuff that he actually wrote. What exactly are you doing?

Quote:

Also, as for the theory itself, I think Dlanor would have asked a lot more questions, considering that you've shown no evidence that the theory actually happened (only some indirect evidence that it might have been possible), and since there's no explanation as to motive, either for Battler or the people who went along with his plan. Erika covered both of these bases in her theory, so at least at the moment, hers is still superior.

That's idiotic. Battler's theory has motive all over it and all he needs is something which is plausible, or at least equally as plausible as Erika's theory. Of course, one of the biggest motives requires giving the game away an episode early, but it exists.

Moreover, his theory has more factual credibility, because it opens more avenues for holes in Erika's theory that are conveniently ignored because the trial is unfair and the writing is bad (such as the calls and Krauss's death).

Of course, if you have a better idea, why don't you stop wasting everyone's time and throw it out there? I'm not going to beg you for snippets of your transcendent wisdom.

UsagiTenpura · 2012-10-28, 15:20

Was just wondering, after some thought.
Back in arc 2's intro, Shkanontrice actually seemed so obvious at first. At that point, I did think all three were one being, and I'm sure many others thought something similar. But then came later on in the same arc the red truth. I believed the red truth, and thus discarded what I thought of the intro of arc 2. But in the long run that made me wonder, if ultimately Shkanon was really something hard to accept, or if it wasn't the "betrayal" of the red that made it that way (even tho we've been told over and over that red was a weapon used by the witch against us)?

Because I'm thinking if I forget the existence of the red, we probably would've established them being one being much earlier and not making much a fuss about it when it turned out to be probably true.

Much later the arc 5 parlor scene messed that up further tho. I think that even tho explanations were found for it, all of them seemed to be bending the rules to find a way for it to happen and not be anything very meaningful tho. I still feel like we are missing something there. Still without it and the red, so basically with the narrative of the question arcs, is Shkanon really hard to accept?

+ Wow Renall.

jjblue1 · 2012-10-28, 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Much later the arc 5 parlor scene messed that up further tho. I think that even tho explanations were found for it, all of them seemed to be bending the rules to find a way for it to happen and not be anything very meaningful tho. I still feel like we are missing something there. Still without it and the red, so basically with the narrative of the question arcs, is Shkanon really hard to accept?

Personally for me the reason why I don't like ShKanon is that unless everyone minus Battler is aware of Shannon and Kanon being the same person, nobody noticed it and Yasu was capable to fool everyone for 2/3 years.
Not mentioning that, unless she was already planning the murder game 2/3 years earlier than it happened, the motive for her to lead a double life is weak.

Mind you, I accept it as the solution because that's clearly what it's meant to be but... each time I think at Yasu putting it into practice I've weird flash of Yasu switching clothes in a Clark Kent's style so that she can 'confortably' switch between the two, Natsuhi who suddently stop being the control freak and completely miss the fact that she's paying the same person twice, Kanon or Shannon either skipping work or having to work twice the normal amount Jessica being so blind she doesn't realize her love interest shares the same face as her best friend (let's assume George is really that blind as he wear glasses... or that he never paid Kanon a second glance) and so on.

Just to name a few.

All things that can be possible but that, as far as I'm involved, are hard to swallow when placed together.

Wegenbarth · 2012-10-28, 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Personally for me the reason why I don't like ShKanon is that unless everyone minus Battler is aware of Shannon and Kanon being the same person, nobody noticed it and Yasu was capable to fool everyone for 2/3 years.
Not mentioning that, unless she was already planning the murder game 2/3 years earlier than it happened, the motive for her to lead a double life is weak.

Mind you, I accept it as the solution because that's clearly what it's meant to be but... each time I think at Yasu putting it into practice I've weird flash of Yasu switching clothes in a Clark Kent's style so that she can 'confortably' switch between the two, Natsuhi who suddently stop being the control freak and completely miss the fact that she's paying the same person twice, Kanon or Shannon either skipping work or having to work twice the normal amount Jessica being so blind she doesn't realize her love interest shares the same face as her best friend (let's assume George is really that blind as he wear glasses... or that he never paid Kanon a second glance) and so on.

Just to name a few.

All things that can be possible but that, as far as I'm involved, are hard to swallow when placed together.

This, the whole episode 5 (except for the obvious line from Natsuhi "I only told Shannon that I like fall") with Shannon and Kanon being different persons for the detective AND Battler,
Will's sudden red "It's not allowed for a servant to be the culprit"
and the co-existence of Shannon and Kanon TOGETHER with Lion in ep7 despite Shannon's bluescreen still makes me wonder if we should accept ShaKanonTrice as the culprit.

Regarding Natsuhi indirectly telling us that Shannon is one of the culprits in ep5, it is somehow TOO obvious.
In this part I have to agree with KNM with the probability of 4 tarrot-cards in different locations, since it feels so similar to the case from ep7 where Yasu switched Belphagore's key out "with magic". Remeber that scene?)

Especially the red. Why on earth did Ryu07 mention it?
Is he just trolling us (again)?

Shannon also said in her bluescreen ("The one who orders us"), which can mean either Yasu, the troll-author or Kinzo/Genji/Natsuhi.

Kiltias · 2012-10-28, 17:32

I'm awaiting an answer from Wanderer which is regards to the whole "Yasu" thing as I do admit eventhough I'm probably the only one, I do think Jessica is deeply involved.

Was actually my main suspect of being Beatrice until Yasu came in.

Quote:

Shannon also said in her bluescreen ("The one who orders us"), which can mean either Yasu, the troll-author or Kinzo/Genji/Natsuhi.

Granted, I can actually see Genji using Yasu to make the gold his own.

UsagiTenpura · 2012-10-28, 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Personally for me the reason why I don't like ShKanon is that unless everyone minus Battler is aware of Shannon and Kanon being the same person, nobody noticed it and Yasu was capable to fool everyone for 2/3 years.
Not mentioning that, unless she was already planning the murder game 2/3 years earlier than it happened, the motive for her to lead a double life is weak.

Mind you, I accept it as the solution because that's clearly what it's meant to be but... each time I think at Yasu putting it into practice I've weird flash of Yasu switching clothes in a Clark Kent's style so that she can 'confortably' switch between the two, Natsuhi who suddently stop being the control freak and completely miss the fact that she's paying the same person twice, Kanon or Shannon either skipping work or having to work twice the normal amount Jessica being so blind she doesn't realize her love interest shares the same face as her best friend (let's assume George is really that blind as he wear glasses... or that he never paid Kanon a second glance) and so on.

Just to name a few.

All things that can be possible but that, as far as I'm involved, are hard to swallow when placed together.

I just guess at a core level the question I'm asking is if it was hard to accept that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, not if it's hard to swallow that they managed to fool everyone over it, which is far from certain anyway. Guess you could say fool Battler and us at least.

The question of fooling others is really a separate thing, because it spawns a debate on fooling who. I think it makes more sense, if we accept Shkanon, to think about who'd need to be "in" in order for it to work, as well as why did it begin in the first place.
I personally think it'd be easy to fool everyone when Kinzo was alive since they were his personal servants. After that, I think Natsuhi and Krauss has no reasons to be fooled since they're in along with Yasu and the servants about the death of Kinzo.
Jessica to me has shown hints of knowing that about it as well. Basically it would be people not on Rokkenjima fooled. I even think there's a good chance her asking Shannon to dress like a boy to pretend being her boyfriend at school might be the origin of Kanon.

Think that in most of Umineko, people are rarely visually fooled - that usually indicates someone lying not someone fooled.

jjblue1 · 2012-10-28, 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

I just guess at a core level the question I'm asking is if it was hard to accept that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, not if it's hard to swallow that they managed to fool everyone over it, which is far from certain anyway. Guess you could say fool Battler and us at least.

Well, for me those two are two connected problems. If they couldn't fool everyone/nearly everyone either they were all accomplices against Battler (and it would still be strange how Battler didn't realize it was strange Shannon and Kanon had the same face despite Shannon coming out and saying they weren't really related) or ShKanon couldn't work.

I've built a theory that gave Yasu a limited number of accomplices in order to make ShKanon work but I can't say Umineko offers us a theory about it.

As far as Umineko tells us Kanon showed up a year before Yasu solved the epitaph and his existence as his own being is never questioned so any solution to the how is in a catbox.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

I personally think it'd be easy to fool everyone when Kinzo was alive since they were his personal servants.

Unless you're implying Kinzo's complicity in covering up all the oddities like Kanon not really coming to Rokkenjima among the other kids or Shannon and Kanon's working schedule which must not much with each other and with the hours Shannon spends at school.
Note that the working schedule is under everyone's eyes in the servant room and that Natsuhi is described as the sort of person that control the servants so it's not like they can handle on their own as they please.
Kinzo's complicity might assure Genji's complicity but then, why should Kinzo be an accomplice in this for a full year as he doesn't know yet Yasu is Beato?
And would Yasu dare to ask him complicity in this when Yasu has no idea Kinzo is his father/grandfather?

Quote:

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

After that, I think Natsuhi and Krauss has no reasons to be fooled since they're in along with Yasu and the servants about the death of Kinzo.

Still you've to give them a reason to accept Kanon, or, in simpler terms, to accept to pay Yasu as if he were two people.
As I said, I've built my theory about why they would do this but I'm curious about yours, if you've one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Jessica to me has shown hints of knowing that about it as well. Basically it would be people not on Rokkenjima fooled. I even think there's a good chance her asking Shannon to dress like a boy to pretend being her boyfriend at school might be the origin of Kanon.

I've considered this. The problem is that Jessica is also the person that pushed George and Shannon together and that's very supportive of them and that, at the same time, is in love with Kanon, would like for him to be his boyfriend and is trying to... well, have her feelings reach him.

So, either she isn't really supportive of George and Shannon or she's not in love with him or she has given up on him or she's trying to organize a threesome without Yasu knowing as Yasu seems to stick on the idea she must have only 1 loved one and either leave with George or remain on Rokkenjima with Jessica.

In short if Jessica is aware that Shannon=Kanon this can solve some problems about her being fooled (she calls Shannon her best friend and is in love with Kanon and doesn't notice a thing about the two of them being the same person?) but then it would destroy part of her characterization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Think that in most of Umineko, people are rarely visually fooled - that usually indicates someone lying not someone fooled.

Yes but this generates the problem that everybody would be lying as everybody seems to know Shannon and Kanon by more than 1 year (minus Battler) and believe they're two separate beings. Even Battler saw Shannon and Kanon and didn't realize the resemblance. Sure, it can be he fail at memorizing faces but it's still odd.

Though I think that's the sort of problem Ryukishi didn't worry about, like the rain not soaking people, it's still a thing that pushes me not to apprecciate the ShKanon solution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wegenbarth

This, the whole episode 5 (except for the obvious line from Natsuhi "I only told Shannon that I like fall") with Shannon and Kanon being different persons for the detective AND Battler,
Will's sudden red "It's not allowed for a servant to be the culprit"
and the co-existence of Shannon and Kanon TOGETHER with Lion in ep7 despite Shannon's bluescreen still makes me wonder if we should accept ShaKanonTrice as the culprit.

Well, she's definitely the culprit on the gameboards otherwise part of the story would lose sense.

Also technically Shannon/Kanon and Lion didn't exist in the same universe. Shannon and Kanon says they don't know him.
Basically Bern as pieced together two universes, the one in which ShKanon existed and the one in which Lion existed, in fact Maria and Jessica, when answering Will about their experiences with Beato talked of a world where Lion didn't exist, and Lion is unaware of Beato's existence as the witch of Rokkenjima.

Interesting enough Shannon and Kanon are the only ones who don't know Lion, while the others, although talking of a world were Lion doesn't exist when answering to Will, knows Lion. This is likely because the jessica of Lion's world and the Jessica of ShKanon's world were... turned into a single being with the knowledge of both Jessica... while the same wasn't possible for ShKanon as they didn't exist in Lion's universe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wegenbarth

Regarding Natsuhi indirectly telling us that Shannon is one of the culprits in ep5, it is somehow TOO obvious.
In this part I have to agree with KNM with the probability of 4 tarrot-cards in different locations, since it feels so similar to the case from ep7 where Yasu switched Belphagore's key out "with magic". Remeber that scene?)

Well, the solution with 4 tarrot cards is equally obvious. If we've to go for the less obvious solution for me is a no win situation. They're both too easy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wegenbarth

Shannon also said in her bluescreen ("The one who orders us"), which can mean either Yasu, the troll-author or Kinzo/Genji/Natsuhi.

Well, I guess that's because that Shannon is pieceShannon and the one controlling her is authorYasu. The scene to me sort of felt like when in a videogame you're about to go for a BadEnding. I've the feeling if Will had insisted Shannon would have switched to Kanon and would have killed/tried to kill Will.

Though I personally like the idea of Gamemaster Genji who's trying to use Yasu to get Kinzo's gold... but Umineko always described Genji as loyal to his master/masters so this would mean throwing his characterization out of the window...

Kealym · 2012-10-28, 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Was just wondering, after some thought.
Back in arc 2's intro, Shkanontrice actually seemed so obvious at first. At that point, I did think all three were one being, and I'm sure many others thought something similar. But then came later on in the same arc the red truth. I believed the red truth, and thus discarded what I thought of the intro of arc 2. But in the long run that made me wonder, if ultimately Shkanon was really something hard to accept, or if it wasn't the "betrayal" of the red that made it that way (even tho we've been told over and over that red was a weapon used by the witch against us)?

Yes, this is interesting. I distinctly remember thinking, back when I read the earlier parts of EP2 "Geez, Kanon, what are you? Some imaginary friend Shannon calls forth when she needs to be angry or angsty about some shit?" Keeping in mind, also, that Shmion was a thing that happened.

However, I abandoned that line of thinking very quickly, since, to be frank, the idea that "Shannon and Kanon might be the same person" just flew in the face of common sense. Especially since the story had not been going on long enough at all for there to be a pattern of "Battler never sees them together, OoooOOOoooo", it seemed like they were presented as present in front of SO MANY people that it was clearly preposterous, and of course, the idea that noone would recognize it? It was a dumb idea then, and it's mostly still a dumb idea now, just one I accept as the authors intention.

Honestly, and it's been said before by others, but I doubt Ryu had fully thought out all the "mechanics" and logistics of his solution, yet. Considering also that he gave several arcs HUGE rewrites depending on how the Japanese fandom was reacting to the previous ones, I think, at best, he had a vague idea of the general sentiment of Shkanon, and didn't think the details out beyond Oct. 4 and 5 1986.

And that sentiment, IMO, seems to be about acknowledging Kanon's distinct personhood, the "magic" that allowed for his existence int he first place, and how that magic is strenghtened by having it acknowledged by others. Still, though, if there had been just one line, something like "actually, Kanon doesn't work here very often, he's more of a part-time guy..." or maybe saying that Shannon and Kanon were actual blood siblings, instead of just "close like a brother and sister", or even, actually, if the story were written with her several years OLDER than she currently is, it would just avoid so many of the obvious problems.

... thinking on it this way, I can explain Will's nonsensical "We don't need to hear about the last two years" as not just Ryu being lazy, but by saying Even Will knew the bullshit that layed ahead would probably have been too much for even HIS patience.

Drifloon · 2012-10-29, 03:29

I always kind of feel like people are missing the point when they discuss how plausible it would be for Yasu to actually act out the lives of two different people. I mean, the gameboards aren't real. They're just message bottle stories. It seems pretty clear to me that she never did something like that in real life; she's deliberately emphasising the differences between the three people that she would like to become, and thus presenting them as three different characters in the fantasy narrative. There's no reason to believe she ever did anything like this in the real world.

AuraTwilight · 2012-10-29, 04:01

Except that it seems extremely important that she had these three romances and no one seemed to understand there was a conflict. If George and Jessica knew they were pining for the same person, you think it'd come up. It does for George and Battler, but...

2012-10-26, 21:53	Link #31006
RandomAvatarFan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011	I don't remember any hidden frames or anything? All remember is Ange looking into Eva's Diary and then jumping off the building. __________________ Without love this picture cannot be seen.

2012-10-27, 08:50	Link #31008
Wanderer Goat Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima	Finished translating Our Confessions: Spoiler for After-discussion between Dlanor and Beatrice: "That's what it is at present. I will arrange it into a proper story format, but that's the really tough part....The displayed story and the undisplayed story. Matching them together as literature is truly an ordeal. It's like having to think up all the tricks, except I have to do even more." "...So by only letting the surface be read, your story reaches the height of EXTRAVAGANCE." "Indeed it does. I'm constantly painting both a fantasy story and a mystery story. Nevertheless, I only release the one story. It's like the extravagance of cutting out just a little bit of the best part of a cow and cooking it, and throwing out all the rest." "An extravagant COMPARISON. ...However, ...do you not have REGRETS?" "Regrets... you say?" Dlanor had returned the bundled manuscript to Beato, and Beato had replied back as she was arranging it on the desk. "......You paint twice the story, and then you only cook the surface HALF. Those who would know of the remaining half, so extravagantly discarded, would surely sing praise and astonishment at its taste and bold CUTS. "Sometimes there are such fellows." "You wrote that it was for 1 in 1000 people, but I think it's the OPPOSITE. Although you want all the other people beyond that 1 in 1000 to truly read your story, there is no doubt they won't be able to grasp the half that is stripped down and buried AWAY." "Kukkukukuku. But isn't that just fine? It's extravagant literature where only the surface is preserved as story. And is not casting aside all those readers beyond the 1 in 1000 itself so very delightfully extravagant? "......Are you happy with THAT? People paint stories to be READ. ......To paint a story not to be read by anyone, to cast it into darkness by one's own will, is beyond extravagance; it can even be thought to be FOOLISH. "Kukkukku. But isn't that just fine? If things written so that the 999 of 1000 people can understand them can be called "civilization's" writings, then it would be most fitting if my story, written so that only 1 in 1000 can understand it, could be called an "oddity" writing. ......It's a story painted by a witch, so if it has an "odd" taste then should it not be called an "oddity" writing?" "......My duty is to, using the commandments, make that "odd" tale understandable to all PEOPLE. "Indeed. ...That's exactly why I don't want to entrust it to you." "However, I understand your REASONS. It can't be made so that the 999 people can understand it, but... at least I may be able to help you reach just one more PERSON." "What do you mean by 'help'?" "I want to some day release this incomplete MANUSCRIPT." "So you intend to drag out from the trash can the uncooked guts I threw away?" "......You may... not be understood by ANYONE. However, I cannot think that that is your true DESIRE. You do not seek understanding from those 999 PEOPLE. However, you are still seeking understanding from 1 single INDIVIDUAL." "There is a possibility that not even that 1 person will appear. ......It's not just young girls in love who wish for someone to understand their inner heart. ......Even witches who have experienced over a thousand years want it." "The young girl tells of this using cryptic words, and awaits a single PRINCE......" "Yes. Kukkukukuku. I, too, am one who has spent long years writing a very intricate story." "If the time comes that the prince does not appear... I shall serve as the guidepost that leads him to YOU." "......Knox's 10 commandments that guarantee that it's a mystery...? Kukkukuku, could a thing like that really guide him to me......?" "If it's not enough... I will release this incomplete manuscript to be the key to your WORLD." "What a disgraceful notion. Isn't it like a girl with no courage to confess having her friend do it for her?" "That, too, is a way love is REALIZED." "Fu......Kukkukukuku, hahhahahahahahahahahahaha. .......Very well. I'll shall allow you this manuscript." Beato faces this way and, leaving a trail of smoke with it, taps the bundled manuscript with her pipe. When she does, the manuscript bundle whirls into into a cylindrical shape and a bottle blinks into existence around it, sealing it inside. She tosses it to Dlanor. "Do with it as you please. Except I have just one condition." "......YES?" "As long as I have life, I shall not suffer that seal's removal." "......But then people who reach the truth by this manuscript cannot tell you of IT." "The only prince I await is the one who arrives without reading the manuscript. ......One cannot love a cat after tearing out its guts." "............UNDERSTOOD. I will do as you WISH. You have my heartfelt prayer that this manuscript brings a visitor to your GRAVE." "I don't know... ......The great witches of the Sea of Kakera are truly quite cold. Even if we suppose there was a person who'd visit my grave, they'd probably just come to spit on it." "......If you painted a story that can be seen by those with love...... then you should love those witches in TURN. Because even the prince you seek will be unable to see it without love for YOU." "......Fu, ......fuffufufufu ......you've got me. You win. Alright, take that bottle with you. I'm not going to die just yet. I still have much story-writing to finish, after all." "Then I shall take my LEAVE. ......Lady Beatrice, be WELL. Please do not forget the many love-filled witches that wait for YOU." ".........Yes, of course. I leave it to you and your parting gift. Ronove, the guest is taking her leave. See her to the door. Then get more tea for me... It's been a while, but I've a craving for sweet milk tea." "......Yes, milady." Lastly is the epilogue. You may remember it as "Dlanor's forward", but that's not what it is; it's actually the epilogue. LyricalAura's already done this translation so I feel no need to translate it again myself. It's been around for a long time and I take no credit for it. I include it here only for the sake of completion. Spoiler for Dlanor's epilogue: As a result of Lady Beatrice's death, I am releasing this incomplete tale in accordance with her will. In reading this work, I was reminded of her long years of sadness, and couldn't hold back my tears. But at the same time, I felt pity for her. Although she was searching for someone who had love, I am sad to say that ironically, her heart was filled with anger at those who did not. She once told me that it was fine if her story reached only one person in a thousand. However, that was wrong. Out of those thousand people, she wished her story would reach even one more person. If you asked her, she would surely laugh and deny it. But those were without question her true feelings. In the beginning, I was uncertain about releasing this manuscript. I thought that I should hide it, so as to preserve her mystery for the one-in-a-thousand savior she spoke so often about. But as I read and reread it... I began to realize that the manuscript was a message with no destination address. It was a wish that even she never realized she had. But now I understand it, and I think it should be granted. That is the reason I decided to release this incomplete manuscript. After you read this, it doesn't matter whether your feelings toward the woman named Beatrice are love or anger. But if you can, try to reach her feelings, buried in the deepest part of the story. She said that she wrote two stories and revealed one. However, that was also wrong. She wrote three stories and revealed one. By reading this incomplete manuscript, you will know two of those stories. I would like you to reach the third and final one with your own power. As another woman, I strongly wish that of those reading this work. Without love, it can't be seen. They are her words. But I shall repeat them. Love exists in everyone's hearts. Her true tragedy was that she couldn't see it. My deepest thanks go out to everyone who helped with the compilation of this book. Especially my assistant, アンズー. -- Dlanor A. Knox And that's that. I will later set up a blog or something to host the entire, fully compiled translation.

2012-10-29, 04:01	Link #31020
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	Except that it seems extremely important that she had these three romances and no one seemed to understand there was a conflict. If George and Jessica knew they were pining for the same person, you think it'd come up. It does for George and Battler, but... __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2012-10-26, 17:45	Link #31002
Valkama Member Join Date: Oct 2012	I noticed something. All the points in EP3 where Beatrice is present is the same spot where Nanjo is and or Nanjo could easily be. What if in EP3 Nanjo = Beatrice. 1st Twilight: Suppose we use Battler's solution, Nanjo would have the key and could easily have backstabbed Yasu at night. 2nd Twilight: Had no Alibi. George and the Window: Nanjo supposedly let him out. Beatrice Supposedly let him out. Beatrice Reunited George with Shannon: Nanjo could have killed him to "Reunite" Them. Nanjo dies infront of the room where Jessica is. Beatrice is defeated infront of the room where Jessica is. Nanjotrice Theory go.

2012-10-28, 15:20	Link #31012
UsagiTenpura Artist Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Yesterday!	Was just wondering, after some thought. Back in arc 2's intro, Shkanontrice actually seemed so obvious at first. At that point, I did think all three were one being, and I'm sure many others thought something similar. But then came later on in the same arc the red truth. I believed the red truth, and thus discarded what I thought of the intro of arc 2. But in the long run that made me wonder, if ultimately Shkanon was really something hard to accept, or if it wasn't the "betrayal" of the red that made it that way (even tho we've been told over and over that red was a weapon used by the witch against us)? Because I'm thinking if I forget the existence of the red, we probably would've established them being one being much earlier and not making much a fuss about it when it turned out to be probably true. Much later the arc 5 parlor scene messed that up further tho. I think that even tho explanations were found for it, all of them seemed to be bending the rules to find a way for it to happen and not be anything very meaningful tho. I still feel like we are missing something there. Still without it and the red, so basically with the narrative of the question arcs, is Shkanon really hard to accept? + Wow Renall.

2012-10-29, 03:29	Link #31019
Drifloon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011	I always kind of feel like people are missing the point when they discuss how plausible it would be for Yasu to actually act out the lives of two different people. I mean, the gameboards aren't real. They're just message bottle stories. It seems pretty clear to me that she never did something like that in real life; she's deliberately emphasising the differences between the three people that she would like to become, and thus presenting them as three different characters in the fantasy narrative. There's no reason to believe she ever did anything like this in the real world.