Character Discussion - Lelouch

[bladeofdarkness]

suzaku fought because of his past
lelouch fought because of his past

suzaku fought to improve the lives of the Japanese people (who no doubt, view him as a traitor) without seeking personal benifit from it

lelouch fought (at first) only for his own sister and revenge, and not for anything outside of that circle

japan was simple the first step in that plan
do you think that if britannia was driven out of japan in the black rebellion lelouch would have stopped it there
he would have continued on to attack britannia itself, dragging the Japanese people with him
because to him, freeing japan is just a step in the path of his revenge

[Sol Falling]

lol. I'd hardly even say Lelouch was actually fighting for Nunally. More like some delusional ideal of her, as Turn 6 and Turn 7 demonstrated. Lelouch somehow twisted a flippant, naive wish for a kinder and gentler world into an excuse for his revenge on Britannia, when all Nunally really wanted and needed was simply to be by his side. Loyalty? Ha.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

suzaku fought to improve the lives of the Japanese people (who no doubt, view him as a traitor) without seeking personal benifit from it

Just because you don't consider dying a personal benift doesn't mean it can't be seen as one under the right circumstances.
Suzaku wanted to die in the same way Lelouch wanted revenge. They both also wanted to improve people's lives, but Lelouch's desire to do so was overshadowed by his fixation on Nunally, while in Suzaku's case, it's his guilt that makes him choose not to see the problems with what he is doing.

lelouch fought (at first) only for his own sister and revenge, and not for anything outside of that circle

I disagree. Those were just his priorities.

japan was simple the first step in that plan
do you think that if britannia was driven out of japan in the black rebellion lelouch would have stopped it there
he would have continued on to attack britannia itself, dragging the Japanese people with him
because to him, freeing japan is just a step in the path of his revenge

Yes, and the revenge thing aside, that's one more reason why I don't consider him less moral than Suzaku. Suzaku was as focused on Japan as Lelouch was focused on Nunally - he didn't think about the rest of the world.
Lelouch, on the other hand, wasn't planning to create a gentle country for his sister to live in, but a gentle world. It would be hypocritical to say fighting to free one country is all right, but all others can go to hell. That Lelouch says Nunally might just have been an excuse shows it's his wish, too. As Okouchi said, he "harbors rightous indignation against the world".
The thing with the elderly couple was supposed to show that Shirley fell in love with him when she realized he really was a kind person at heart. His kindness may have been twisted by his past, but he still has morals. He doesn't go around geassing everyone into destroying Britannia during the first season, he helps people without getting anything out of it, and at the beginning of the second season, when he doesn't have his memories, he gets into trouble with a noble to help an Eleven - he's also pretty nice to Kallen in her bunny costume (but who knows, maybe he was just distracted by the view xD). Those things show a part of him that is at least as important as his thirst for revenge.
C.C. is also influenced by his kindness. It's a thing the creators put a lot of empathises on. If he was as horrible as you make him out to be, he wouldn't have felt relieved not to be responsible for people's lives for once in episode 21, nor would he have stopped the Shinjuku massacre when he was that high on power - he would just have shot Clovis and gone home. He wouldn't even have met C.C.
You can choose to ignore the side of him that dislikes to see people suffer, but the fact still stands that there are few people in the series who are less selfish/more moral than Lelouch. Rvalz fails the test, and so does Nunally. Actually, no one does anyting against the injustice they see (or close their eyes against) besides a handful of people, and many of them had to be told by Lelouch that hurting Britannian civilians isn't nice.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

lol. I'd hardly even say Lelouch was actually fighting for Nunally. More like some delusional ideal of her, as Turn 6 and Turn 7 demonstrated. Lelouch somehow twisted a flippant, naive wish for a kinder and gentler world into an excuse for his revenge on Britannia, when all Nunally really wanted and needed was simply to be by his side. Loyalty? Ha.

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[Nogitsune]

Yes, Lelouch has issues.
But he's only human, and he was not much more delusional than Suzaku.

[bladeofdarkness]

a few pet the dog moments does not cover the rest of lelouch's actions
and does not make him a moral character for it

lelouch acts mostly nice when he doesnt posses his geass (the old couple, the truck, helping kallen)
but when given power, he is also corrupted by it to some degree
its like what happened with light to some extent
lelouch starts out with morals
but once he gains the power to inforce his will on the world, he lets his morals slide whenever it suits him

You can choose to ignore the side of him that dislikes to see people suffer, but the fact still stands that there are few people in the series who are less selfish/more moral than Lelouch. Rvalz fails the test, and so does Nunally. Actually, no one does anyting against the injustice they see (or close their eyes against) besides a handful of people, and many of them had to be told by Lelouch that hurting Britannian civilians isn't nice.

1)nonsense
there are few people who would be willing to stoop to lelouch's level
as evident by their reactions when learning about his actions

you can choose random people off the street and they would rather die then commit some of the stuff lelouch does

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Well, Mt. Fuji was a contingency plan. Lelouch said it himself that he never expected the Black Knights to pose much of a threat. The battle was going bad for them so they HAD to use Mt. Fuji and sacrifice their ground forces, but that was a good trade off because it took out a good chunk of the Black Knights forces including their flag ship. As a soldier you accept that your life may be expendable and the leader is ultimately responsible for seeing the overall picture and making decisions that could cause you to lose your life.

Than that was Lelouch's own incompetency to think that Britannia could have a chance in hell of defeating the Black Knights when the entire season has basically just been the Black Knights kicking the crap out of Britannia.

Also no leader should see his army as expendable, that's how we got battles like the Trench warfare of World War I, or the battle of Okinawa in World War II, where the Generals saw the entire island of Okinawa as expendable. The Yamato was destroyed in a useless attack that cost the lives of AT LEAST 3,700 Japanese while costing America a whopping total of 12 people.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

a few pet the dog moments does not cover the rest of lelouch's actions
and does not make him a moral character for it

lelouch acts mostly nice when he doesnt posses his geass (the old couple, the truck, helping kallen)
but when given power, he is also corrupted by it to some degree
its like what happened with light to some extent
lelouch starts out with morals
but once he gains the power to inforce his will on the world, he lets his morals slide whenever it suits him

Lelouch doesn't let his morals slide that often. He simply believes that the end justifies the means, which might go against your morals, but not his. Well, actually, he contradicts himself, but that's another matter.

[bladeofdarkness]

then you say that lelouch operates on a moral system that stands apart from that of normal people
thats not a point in his favor

lelouch HAS to comply with the same moral principle as everyone else to be considered a moral person
if he says "i can do what ever i want as long as it suits me" then he doesnt have morals
what he has is STANDARDS
he doesnt say "i wont do something because its wrong" but rather "i wont do something because its beneath me"

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

then you say that lelouch operates on a moral system that stands apart from that of normal people
thats not a point in his favor

Actually, in the world of Code Geass, it certainly is.
If you live in a world where slavery is the norm, for example, you're not a bad person because you see things differently. Now, it's still different from going ahead and starting a rebellion, but the masses aren't always right.
Many people would rather watch people die than dirty their hand just because they feel less responsible that way. "Evil" can only happen if people let it.

lelouch HAS to comply with the same moral principle as everyone else to be considered a moral person

Errr... no.
You only have to agree with Lelouch's views to consider him a moral person. Since he contradicts himself, that's not easy, but I don't disagree with him any more than I disagree with Suzaku, and Schneizel can easily be considered moral by people who, for example, supports utilitarianism.
The only requirement for a moral theory is that it has to be consistent, and most also agree it should take into account the concept of justice somewhere. But that's all.

if he says "i can do what ever i want as long as it suits me" then he doesnt have morals
what he has is STANDARDS
he doesnt say "i wont do something because its wrong" but rather "i wont do something because its beneath me"

Again, Lelouch has standards. He could simply have used his Geass to create an army of slaves right from the very beginning.
He believes the end justifies the means, but only to an extend. It's a contradiction, and he lets things get in the way of his morals, but he still has them, and he's not being any more selfish than a lot of other people in Code Geass.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

suzaku fought to improve the lives of the Japanese people (who no doubt, view him as a traitor) without seeking personal benifit from it

Hmm... not really.

lelouch fought (at first) only for his own sister and revenge, and not for anything outside of that circle

Uh huh.

do you think that if britannia was driven out of japan in the black rebellion lelouch would have stopped it there
he would have continued on to attack britannia itself, dragging the Japanese people with him
because to him, freeing japan is just a step in the path of his revenge

He wouldn't have stopped. I, however, believe that he can't just drag the Japanese with him. They have to go with him willingly. Also, if Britannia was really driven out of Japan at an earlier stage, do you think that they would leave the ending like that? They would come back and attempt to conquer Japan once again.

if he says "i can do what ever i want as long as it suits me" then he doesnt have morals

Uh oh.
That's what I do.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Actually, in the world of Code Geass, it certainly is.
If you live in a world where slavery is the norm, for example, you're not a bad person because you see things differently. Now, it's still different from going ahead and starting a rebellion, but the masses aren't always right.
Many people would rather watch people die than dirty their hand just because they feel less responsible that way. "Evil" can only happen if people let it.

if you live in a world were most people consider slavery as norm, but murder as a crime
would saying that murdering AND enslaving lots of people is fine so long as it might lead to an end of slavery ?
becoming evil to defeat evil is does not make you good

Errr... no.
You only have to agree with Lelouch's views to consider him a moral person. Since he contradicts himself, that's not easy, but I don't disagree with him any more than I disagree with Suzaku, and Schneizel can easily be considered moral by people who, for example, supports utilitarianism.
The only requirement for a moral theory is that it has to be consistent, and most also agree it should take into account the concept of justice somewhere. But that's all.

and his consistency is... ?
he starts talking about how the strong should not oppress the weak, and then proceeds to do just that
he talks about how free will is important, and then brainwash's countless thousands
if by being consistent you mean "being consistently willing to utterly ignore his morals at every turn when it suits him" then i suppose you have it right

and again, if you say that lelouch can live by his own personal moral standards
why not bradly
sufficient philosophical debate would lead to justification for every character type you can think of
but basic acceptable level of morality, of the sort anyone can subscribe to (the golden rule for example) is self explanatory
and far from lelouch or Schneizel's view

Again, Lelouch has standards. He could simply have used his Geass to create an army of slaves right from the very beginning.
He believes the end justifies the means, but only to an extend. It's a contradiction, and he lets things get in the way of his morals, but he still has them, and he's not being any more selfish than a lot of other people in Code Geass.

a)what would be the extent ?

b)if he doesnt follow them, then he doesnt have them.

c)how many people in code geass would deceptively use an entire nation in their personal pursuit for revenge.

[Revolutionist]

I don't think I was very clear so I'll try to explain a little bit better. Lelouch, Suzaku and Kallen had something in their pasts that made them fight. Lelouch was discarded by Charles and told he and his crippled sister were worthless after his mother was assassinated. Suzaku killed his own father, and Kallen had her brother killed by Britannia. That's what puts them in collision course with each other. However, what they are fighting for are completely different than their reasons for fighting.

Suzaku thinks he can make a difference in the world, which is why he joins the army. He wants to make a better future for the Japanese people by working from within the system because he feels anything achieved through the wrong means rarely works out. He basically says that to Kallen in Kaminejima.

Kallen in the other hand believes that the system has to be brought down, so she becomes a terrorist. She kills people because she thinks that's the way to bring about justice.

So, although different in method both Kallen and Susaku are essentially fighting for the same thing, the Japanese people. Lelouch, while a kind person doesn't really fight for them. Sure he helps people but as far as justice is concerned he views it as a side effect of his personal vendetta, not his main goal. He uses the Japanese as his own army in order to take on his father.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Than that was Lelouch's own incompetency to think that Britannia could have a chance in hell of defeating the Black Knights when the entire season has basically just been the Black Knights kicking the crap out of Britannia.

Also no leader should see his army as expendable, that's how we got battles like the Trench warfare of World War I, or the battle of Okinawa in World War II, where the Generals saw the entire island of Okinawa as expendable. The Yamato was destroyed in a useless attack that cost the lives of AT LEAST 3,700 Japanese while costing America a whopping total of 12 people.

The BKs only kicked ass when they had Lelouch providing them strats, when he wasn't around they flopped.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

if you live in a world were most people consider slavery as norm, but murder as a crime
would saying that murdering AND enslaving lots of people is fine so long as it might lead to an end of slavery ?
becoming evil to defeat evil is does not make you good

Well, what would you do in a society like the one in Code Geass, if you could change things, but had to cross some lines to do so?
During season one, Lelouch was trying to avoid involving civilians. Killing people like Clovis is different from killing innocents in the same way locking up a criminal is different from locking up a random person on the street.
I'm not saying Lelouch is a saint. I'm saying he's no worse than Suzaku, and always had morals. (Loyalty, by the way, is also a kind of morality.)

and his consistency is... ?
he starts talking about how the strong should not oppress the weak, and then proceeds to do just that
he talks about how free will is important, and then brainwash's countless thousands
if by being consistent you mean "being consistently willing to utterly ignore his morals at every turn when it suits him" then i suppose you have it right

Lelouch, I think, is torn between utilitarianism and a view more similar to Suzaku's. Like Schneizel, he believes the overall happiness is most important and that people can be sacrificed for it, but at the same time, he thinks he's doing something wrong by making those sacrifices. Thus, a contradiction, and not a moral theory that makes sense.
However, you don't need a working moral theory to be moral. You need it to judge whether someone else is acting morally correct. Since I'm almost as undecided as Lelouch, I have a little problem here - one I'm still trying to work out -, but I can at least say that wherever it is I'm standing, Suzaku is no moral to me than Lelouch, since I think the means are meaningless if they don't achieve anything good.

and again, if you say that lelouch can live by his own personal moral standards
why not bradly
sufficient philosophical debate would lead to justification for every character type you can think of

Yes, and morality is a very subjective matter in that regard. That's why it isn't the same as laws.

but basic acceptable level of morality, of the sort anyone can subscribe to (the golden rule for example) is self explanatory
and far from lelouch or Schneizel's view

There is no such thing as an ultimate moral theory.
You can say we need certain laws for our society to function, but that's all. If you have found the ultimate moral theory, go write a book, and I'm sure you'll soon be rich. Until then, please don't make claims about philosophy almost every philosopher would disagree with.
Also, since Schneizel is Schneizel, I'm pretty sure he's following the Golden Rule just fine. Lelouch is also ready to put his life on the line together with the ones of the rest of the Black Knights, and ready to sacrifice it for his goals.

a)what would be the extent ?

See the contradiction thing. He believes the end justifies the means, but also that he needs to be punished for doing what he considers "the right thing".

b)if he doesnt follow them, then he doesnt have them.

Just because someone doesn't always act on their morals doesn't mean he doesn't have them.
If I think eating meat is wrong, but then give in to the temptation and feel bad about it before going back to not eating meat, I haven't lost my morals. It means I'm human, and therefore bound to do bad things from time to time.
Yes, Lelouch is an extreme, but he also lived a life very different from the average person, in a society that tramples over the weak at every chance it gets.

c)how many people in code geass would deceptively use an entire nation in their personal pursuit for revenge.

That was one of his two goals.
Also, Suzaku and Kallen were quite ready to let the whole world go to hell as long as Japan got its freedom back. Sometimes, it's not about what someone does, but about what they don't do. And most characters in Code Geass couldn't even be bothered to do something so small as to help the victims of a car accident.
That Lelouch does says something about him.

[bladeofdarkness]

i'm getting tired of all this morality talk because we'll never get anywhere
but...

That was one of his two goals.
Also, Suzaku and Kallen were quite ready to let the whole world go to hell as long as Japan got its freedom back. Sometimes, it's not about what someone does, but about what they don't do. And most characters in Code Geass couldn't even be bothered to do something so small as to help the victims of a car accident.
That Lelouch does says something about him.

what ?
suzaku and kallen both tried to free japan/make japan a better place
what part of that concerns the rest of the world exactly ?

season 2 suzaku i agree is guilty of this type of thinking (since he's actively aiding britannian conquest
but season 1 suzaku and kallen in general have nothing to do with any other part of the world save for japan
and both are actively fighting on behalf of the japanese people in an attempt to make their lives better

lelouch does not
lelouch views japan as step one only
he high-jacks the japanese liberation movement in a bid for getting his revenge on britannia

and lets settle this thing once and for all
lelouch doesnt have TWO goals
he has ONE
he wants to make the world better for nunally, and his WAY of doing it, is by destroying britannia
in other words, what he wants to DO is destroy britannia
he uses nunally as his excuse

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i'm getting tired of all this morality talk because we'll never get anywhere

Same here.

what ?
suzaku and kallen both tried to free japan/make japan a better place
what part of that concerns the rest of the world exactly ?

My point exactly.
They didn't give a damn about the rest of the world.

lelouch does not
lelouch views japan as step one only
he high-jacks the japanese liberation movement in a bid for getting his revenge on britannia

And change the world.
It's actually the first thing he says about his plans: "I have returned, your Highness... in order to change everything."
Since he was high on power at that time, I'm inclined to believe him. Revenge isn't much more important to Lelouch than the other half of his goals. The previews agree ("Lelouch is stuck between the past and the future... yadda, yadda.")

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

My point exactly.
They didn't give a damn about the rest of the world.

what exactly do they HAVE to do with the rest of the world
their actions dont effect it in any way
their fight is limited to japan (at first)
i dont get your argument here

And change the world.
It's actually the first thing he says about his plans: "I have returned, your Highness... in order to change everything."
Since he was high on power at that time, I'm inclined to believe him. Revenge isn't much more important to Lelouch than the other half of his goals. The previews agree ("Lelouch is stuck between the past and the future... yadda, yadda.")

you mistake is thinking that lelouch's goal of making a better world for nunnaly and his desire to destroy britannia are somehow different from one another
they are one and the same
he achieves one, by doing the other

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

what exactly do they HAVE to do with the rest of the world
their actions dont effect it in any way
their fight is limited to japan (at first)
i dont get your argument here

Again, sometimes it's not about what someone does, but about what they don't do. Suzaku planned to get Britannia to accept Elevens and would have let them do anything they wanted to other Numbers. Granted, if you pointed that out to him, he would probably have changed his mind somewhat, but the truth is, he never even considered other countries.
Same with Kallen, only that she at leats was busy fighting Britannia, whereas Suzaku supported it in hopes that it would help Japan.

you mistake is thinking that lelouch's goal of making a better world for nunnaly and his desire to destroy britannia are somehow different from one another
they are one and the same

I don't "mistake" anything. I disagree.
Oh well. Let's just stop here. xD

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Again, sometimes it's not about what someone does, but about what they don't do. Suzaku planned to get Britannia to accept Elevens and would have let them do anything they wanted to other Numbers. Granted, if you pointed that out to him, he would probably have changed his mind somewhat, but the truth is, he never even considered other countries.
Same with Kallen, only that she at leats was busy fighting Britannia, whereas Suzaku supported it in hopes that it would help Japan.

what were either of them suppose to do ?
i'd agree on suzaku in season 2, because he is actively conquering more areas
but in season 1 all he is doing is trying to end the fights INSIDE japan
what would he do that reflects on the rest of the world ?
same with kallen. what would she do that effects the rest of the world
she actively fights britannian occupation in japan because thats where she's from
what else could she do ?

and lelouch's world view is considerably smaller then theirs in that regard
they fight on behalf of their respective people
lelouch fights for exactly one person

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

what were either of them suppose to do ?
i'd agree on suzaku in season 2, because he is actively conquering more areas
but in season 1 all he is doing is trying to end the fights INSIDE japan
what would he do that reflects on the rest of the world ?

If the Black Knights had freed Japan, it would have helped the rest of the world more as the Lancelot fighting against them. Do you really think Suzaku would have refused if someone had told him to go and capture terrorists in other Areas? He would have done it, just for Japan, and not because he thought it would help, let's say, Europe.

same with kallen. what would she do that effects the rest of the world
she actively fights britannian occupation in japan because thats where she's from
what else could she do ?

She could have planned to continue after liberating Japan. But again, since she was busy enough with just Japan, she has an excuse - not everyone can have an ego as big as that of Lelouch. xD