|2016-01-05, 22:21||Link #1|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Schwarzesmarken - Anime Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced fans only)
This thread is for the experienced Schwarzesmarken viewer (i.e. those of you who are familiar with potentially all the light novels / manga / game), its purpose is to allow free discussion of theories and speculation over the Schwarzesmarken anime series, it therefore will contain unmarked spoilers. If you are a light novel / manga / game virgin of Muv-Luv Franchise, then do not read this thread unless you want to be spoiled (use the Speculation & Theories Thread).
Since posters are expected to be familiar with the light novel / manga, there is no real need for spoiler tags, but feel free to include them if you so wish.
Adding a Spoiler tag:
Finally, please remain on-topic and do not use this thread if it's just discussion about the current or previous anime episodes. Also remember that this isn't a light novel / manga discussion thread, if you do want to discuss the light novel then please use the existing thread.
|2016-01-18, 16:54||Link #4|
Join Date: Jan 2016
As someone who has read bits and pieces of the LN, this anime is killing me. I don't mind the scene compressions so much, I know it's one cour and compromises have to be made. Props to them for smartly combining Beatrix's confrontation with Iris with Axmann's dialogue later on. Additionally replacing Gretel's slap with Sylwia's scene where she kicks the snot out of Katia (in the LN, Katia attempts to "befriend" Sylwia to disastrous results) was also a good move.
What I don't like is the added stuff or outright changes. Their attempts to turn Beatrix and the stasi into evil caricatures perturbs me. In the novel, they're bad, but you can see where they're coming from. Beatrix in particular is a nuanced villain and can even be sympathetic if you know her back story. Stuff like the execution scene and the speech were anime originals and the scene where the NVA don't get their stasi reinforcements is an outright contradiction (see: http://www.twitch.tv/planetwarrior/b...5041?t=121m50s).
In the LN and VN, the Werewolves arrive and save everyone's butts just as things get really bad. Iris accuses Beatrix of purposely delaying the rescue though to make the stasi look more heroic to the NVA (the LN never establishes if she was right, Beatrix claims that they had mechanical problems, something MiG-23s are renowned for in ML, but delaying the rescue would've been a very Beatrix-y thing to do too). Here, they cackle and gloat (or drink tea) as the BETA kill them all.
Irisdina also suffers. In the LN, she just hands over Jürgen to the stasi (earning the eternal wrath of Beatrix). Here, she apparently shoots him herself. I don't know why they made this change, it's rather pointless. It was more realistic that she'd inform on her brother. Maybe they wanted more drama or something.
It's an alright anime, I've been enjoying it, but it's shaping up to be a terrible adaptation.
|2016-03-09, 22:57||Link #5|
Don't Call Me Bro
I've spoken to people regarding the LN and the VN. I'm now convinced something has changed. This is why.
The second part of the VN coming out later this year will have THREE endings. Thus the anime isn't bound to the LN's ending.
As a result, I believe this is what will happen instead. I dare to say it now why it's still up in the air.
I think the anime's finale will have Lise kill Axmann. Lise is alive and likely uncaptured - everyone expected her to die because that's what happened in the LN. After the confrontation in Episode 9, Theodor rejecting Lise and Pham being killed in the process, Theodor captured Lise and took her back to the rebel base. Lise was interrogated regarding Irisdina's location and the order was given for her to be executed, which Theodor carried out, honoring Lise's words in her final sane moment to 'forget this dog of the Stasi' and put her out of her misery before Katia could intervene.
However...as far as we know, Lise wasn't captured in the final moments of Episode 9. The Werewolves were inbound and Theodor only had time to retrieve Gretel, leaving Lise behind. Which is a clear deviation from the LN as far as I can tell. I can't possibly see Episode 10 starting with some random going 'Hey, look what we picked up during our retreat.' I'm taking this as the anime not taking the path of the LN. I'm taking this as a flag that Lise's fate will now be one of the two alternate endings in the upcoming 2nd part of the VN.
And the other thing is that Axmann was allowed to live in the LN...
Lise has to do something big to justify her survival. People expect Lise to be put out her misery since she is broken beyond repair and killing Pham was the final straw for the 666th. But here's what I think. Since Lise has become one of the most talked about things within the Schwarzesmarken adaptation and because of the VN enabling a different ending, she had to live. There is still something she can do that no one expects her to. What could be better than the person who was thrown into hell, broken and turned into Axmann's dog to be able to take down their insidious master?! For all the inhumanity Axmann enforced on Lise, she gets to return it and then some. Let Lise have her moment. Let it be bloody and for Axmann to have one of the most painful & deserved deaths possible in anime. Let Lise show to whoever survives in the 666th that while she may be broken, she wasn't completely lost. Like how Darth Vader reclaimed himself once more to kill Emperor Palpatine to save Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi. Regardless of whether Lise lives or dies after the fact, just let her have her moment....
And I don't see who else could kill Axmann. From my understanding:
- Gretel will die in Episode 10 after being cut off from the 666th, being severely wounded by Axmann and then burned alive when the Stasi set fire to the building. The reveal of what she finds out about Jurgen should also happen. It is necessary the viewers know this and I'll be disappointed if it doesn't get included.
- Sylvia and Walter die in Episode 11 during the fight with Beatrix.
- Irisdina will die in Episode 12 when she intercepts a gunshot from Axmann that would have killed Katia.
- Katia's time will be spent sending communications to the German people to unite and tear down the Berlin wall. She was also Axmann's target and given the fact she is essentially the one with the 'free pass' for the entirety of the series, it makes no sense for her to do the deed.
- Anett won't do it since she's a side character, even if she's one of the very few who survives to the end.
- Theodor....it just wouldn't fit in. I imagine he's going to be pretty wrecked when he watches Irisdina die in his arms. He tends to be wrecked whenever someone is dead or he hears/sees something he can't comprehend.
As for how this adaptation has played out - I now understand where the LN people are coming from. Clearly the character development has suffered in this adaptation - particularly for characters like Beatrix (hearing her full story really was quite something....) and the moments that would have made the secondary tier characters of the 666th mean more. Pham's death, while tragic, lacked impact. She was sidelined for most of the series being injured while Lise took her place on the front line. We didn't see the moments that explain why Pham was 'big sis' to everyone. To have it mentioned during the rescue in Episode 9 for the first time is way too late...
Regarding the removal of the Stasi backing up the 666th in Episode 2, I feel they did it to make Axmann cop more hate (another thing that builds up the 'Axmann must die' sentiment and opening the path for Lise to kill Axmann). I don't think it led to Beatrix copping hate. But in terms of removing the subtext in the exchanges between Beatrix and Irisdina that would have happened, that was detrimental. But I guess the angle those adapting this title are doing that they're going to keep things about Beatrix out of sight until when Beatrix's fatal showdown with various 666th members happens and her eventual death at Theodor's hands. I think the reveal of Beatrix being Jurgen's lover will happen then. I don't think those make the anime want any sympathy to be given to the Stasi in general. I think they're ensuring only Lise and Beatrix will be getting any. I also feel the reveal of what Gretel finds out about Jurgen in her final moments are required before giving reasons to be sympathetic towards Beatrix.
However, I feel that the change of the timing of revealing Lise's true colours was justified. Having Lise tell Theodor directly that she is a Stasi spy, but that she will fight for the 666th instead in the LN - I never bought that for one second. That Theodor would simply not tell Irisdina....when he knows something that damning...it just makes me want to see him burn. We get he cares for his sister....but if the whole LN was building up this whole thing that Theodor x Irisdina was a thing....but he won't tell Irisdina something that crucial.....it pretty much ruins the whole bond and degrades Theodor as a character so much more. Potentially doing that moreso to Irisdina.
Instead, having it happen at the end of Episode 7 - having that whole episode play out with the slight chance that maybe Lise wasn't a Stasi spy linger. The 666th are fresh off a big defensive battle and things are looking up. When everyone is most vulnerable, the truth comes out and the final moments are what the viewer remembers. That was the talking point for the following week. I've felt that the use of the final minute post-ending credits has been utilised well in this adaptation.
I guess there are more subtleties/differences I need to investigate eventually. But for now, how things will end is what I care about most. And as far as I'm concerned, Lise killing Axmann is the one thing that would justify the adaptation overall.
Last edited by Last Sinner; 2016-03-09 at 23:14.
|2016-03-12, 22:24||Link #8|
Join Date: Feb 2016
Nice amazing thread, now I can feel free to say what I think.
The anime didn't do a good job explaining things or developing the real intentions of the characters, since the start everything was butchered and rushed to the point everything falls to a silly attempt of being serious adding murderers and random fights, there is no progression and the most decisive moments were absolutely cut off in the adaptation.
As someone who played these games since Alternative/Extra, I feel bad for the ones who loves SM. I'm not a fan of SM by all means but this is Muv Luv and don't deserve this kind of treatment. At least Total Eclipse was better in terms of pacing and adaptation wise (yes it has some bad moments and sometimes the pacing was slow to make some episodes boring as fuck) but overall was much better than this.
Now moving to the main topic, I'm going to do a list of things that needs to be explained.
1.- The relationship between the characters and their backgrounds were deleted, most of them, and that's why we have a mix of what we can see in the VN, LN and anime original treatment.
For example there is Theo and Irisdina, where they deleted how far they went in their relationship. Iris is like the dream girl for Theo, his ideal, his motivation to move forward and someone who can trust to the point of making her his "lover" (yes they have sex in the story). Theo was always someone insecure, someone who can't take a desition about what he really wants but thanks to Iris and maybe Katia he got a reason to live.
On the other hand, something I didn't liked at all is how the anime showed Lise. Let's start with her past, she was captured, tortured, raped countless times and sometimes for days but her will was strong enough to not lose her mind BUT her motivations were focused on Theo, be his woman and not only part of his family and well... there is Axmann who literally told her "I'll show these pics to Theo and then kill him if you betray me" (pics of her being raped by his subordinates) and then she just turned into a dog of the Stasi. To clarify Axmann never touched her, only his subordinates and other military members because at that point Lise believes she can handle everyone by turning into a pseudo-whore in exchange of different favors, the anime just increased that to show some over-dramatic side of Lise (and that never happened), actually she always carried the pain of lose her purity to another guy and in the worst way possible, all her crimes, all the people she killed to reach Theo and even having an almost incest relationship with Theo. Also one nice detail in the LN is how even when she shows herself as a bitch most of the time, inside her head she was always having monologues about how bad she feels for what is happening, for the things she did and we never see that in the anime.
As for Katia... there is nothing much to say, she's the moeblob idealist in the VN, the LN and the anime so there is no complaints at all.
Beatrix background was COMPLETELY butchered, they deteleted her motivations, her traumas, why she is like that and even how she turned into the worst enemy of Theo. Beatrix and Axmann are the ones carrying this story for their relevance but now in the anime they looks like any cheap cliché enemy of any other series, maybe Axmann was better but the problem still there.
2.- The deaths.
Pham was a HUGE character here, and they killed her like another random secondary character. Pham was the one who always introduced those nice bits of softness and helped everyone to relax and understand the problems they got, like a Onee-san who always take care of the youngest ones. With Theo she was like a mother, she was always protecting him from all the pain and unlike everyone else she's the only one able to calm his heart, healing his mind and soul so he can stay strong to overcome the problems incoming.
On the next episodes we're going to see lots of deaths but I really doubt how well are they going to manage that because almost the entire cast is going to die (pic related).
Spoiler for RIP:
One of the most important deaths are Lise, Beatrix and Iris since Pham is already gone, there is Walter and Sylwia too.
Ok, this turned into a wall of text but this is how I feel about the adaptation, not the best out there but at least can keep some people interested in the story. In my opinion this don't deserve a good evaluation, 3/10 at best and I encourage everyone to read the LN and get the VN because there is a massive amount of interesting development completely butchered here.
|2016-03-12, 23:11||Link #9|
Don't Call Me Bro
Wouldn't the fact that the anime doesn't contain several key parts of the character development therefore be motivation for fans interested enough to go track down the VN or LN? Which kind of is the whole point?
Anime adaptations are rarely going to have the time to be utterly faithful, even rarer to have the money to do so + the financial payoff to justify it. Furthermore, if the anime is going to be a perfect replication, wouldn't it be motivation to get one rather than both?
I'm sure Beatrix's backstory will get some form of mention. Not to the degree you'd probably like, but one that will hopefully do the Beatrix - Jurgen - Irisdina link enough for fresh fans to get a grasp of it.
One thing that's always bugged me about the LN - in that, Lise confessed to Theodor that she was a Stasi spy before the big defensive, but said she would leave the Stasi and fight for the 666th. Theodor simply believed Lise and never told anyone, even Irisdina. Not telling Lise's true nature without proof is one thing. But Lise straight out told him! And Theodor doesn't tell Irisdina?! What the heck is that meant to say about how he feels about Irisdina? If Theodor truly did care about Irisdina, he'd have told her about Lise in a heartbeat. I don't care what you say - the fact Theodor - as he usually does - did nothing at the critical moment - that pretty much tears apart whatever happened between them. If Irisdina is his one source of hope and the one he wants to follow, then he wouldn't do such a thing....Why did you think the director of the anime changed that so the reveal happened when the Werewolves made their move? Because it made far more sense, gave Lise more impact and didn't cause the damage to Theodor and Irisdina that the original reveal did.
The things you say about Lise....you seem to think people don't think those things or feel those ways. Well, I've looked in other places and they feel/think those things about Lise. As for the more 'dramatic' reactions Lise had in Episode 9, on top of the fact that Lise wasn't captured like she was in the LN, wouldn't that be a flag that Lise's fate is different to the LN's and taking a different ending available in the VN? Whether you like her or not, Lise is one of the best things going for the anime version. Furthermore, liking Lise never seemed to be the point. She has been put through hell, broken and eventually done unforgivable things. Lise is still worthy of empathy and Axmann still deserves to freaking pay for what he did to Lise, Beatrix, Irisdina and countless others. Which is why I still say - let Lise kill Axmann. Give her character a bigger impact and make the mix of emotions towards her even more volatile.
As for the deaths - it's a war title where the outlook was already bleak. Did people expect the majority of the regular cast to live? I never did. Furthermore, there's far bleaker/more nihilstic titles where entire casts are wiped out. Not everything was lost in this title. Some characters lived and from what I understand, while Germany as a country was lost, weren't the people evacuated? That still means plenty and justifies Irisdina's ultimate sacrifice.
Not saying you're wrong, Nozomu. It is a fact this title definitely had key character development missing. But I don't think this adaptation is a wreck.
|2016-03-21, 16:52||Link #10|
Join Date: Feb 2016