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Old 2012-11-28, 03:28   Link #1781
wontaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
If Senshado is a martial art, then it is not just a game, and thus there is a duty to do one's duty as a follower of Senshado. Miho neglected her duty as a commander, and thus failed Senshado in that particular aspect. Saying her saving lives cleared her negligence is basically going against Senshado as a martial art.


@ wontaek:

1. The entire "five Shermans for one Panther" is false. At no time in the war has that ever happened, and the idea was it served as a warning rather than a fact.
2. The Panther itself is mobile, but what of the other tanks? They're not, and having one mobile tank when the rest is not up to the task is more of a liability than asset.
On Martial Art part I half agree , as had Miho kept cooler heads, as she was expected to, she could have, in very short time, (1) signaled to the overseeing authority that the match needs to be stopped as lives were in danger, (2) commanded other people, please note the plural, to take necessary rescue actions, as it is bit foolish to undertake dangerous rescue operation alone, (3) and then command people not directly involved with the rescue to withdraw the tanks to safe spot, since going ahead in that slippery road under possible enemy fire is invitation to more accidents. While I believe the Writers of the series botched up the mother's criticism very badly, you do have to consider that diving into river rapid alone and without asking for help usually isn't the best way to attempt a rescue.


For that myth of 5 Sherman to 1 Panther, the part I wanted to stress was the time, not whether 5 or 9 tanks really were needed. I have found better quote about this transmission and final drive problem

Quote:
http://www.ww2f.com/armor-armored-fi...tml#post397024

The transmission system was also poor as 5 percent broke within 100km and almost 90 percent broke down within 1,500km.
Please note that many of the Panther's problem also was result of degradation of manufacturing quality, and also that they were forced to rely on cheaper products. Some of the problem was partially resolved. The part I am focusing on is that in a Senshado match, you wouldn't expect to be driving more than 100km in a single match. That means there is 95% chance you won't encounter mechanical failure within a match if all the crucial parts were replaced after every match. This is why I think reliability problem is of less worry in Senshado setting.

Speed has its own merit. Even one speedster allows you to do more. Also consider that Panzer IV is faster than Tiger, so while Panzer won't likely hold Oorai troop back in moving, Tiger, in certain situation, can have difficulty keeping up with some of other tanks. The mobility of Panther was great reason why some considers Panther to be the first Main Battle Tank. Even if other tanks would have trouble keeping up, even having one tank being at a place you want when you want it, is much better than not even trying to get your slower big gun in a good place to use.
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Last edited by wontaek; 2012-11-28 at 08:17.
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Old 2012-11-28, 03:30   Link #1782
tarajis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post

2. There is no "if not more important". There were two duties: Miho as a commander and as a kameradin. She did what she should as a kameradin, but not as what she should have done as a commander. It's that simple: She did not do her duty for one of her roles.
I'm very sure one of the important duties of a commander is assuring the well-being of his/her subordinates... I'm pretty sure Miho knows that losing the competition isn't going to put any of her subordinates in any life-threatening situation... so doing what she did, Miho fulfill both her duties as a kameradin and as a commander...

Good thing for those people inside the sinking tank that watching people die isn't a philosophy that Miho lives by...
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Old 2012-11-28, 03:32   Link #1783
garbage
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sigh , i've said that would be it,since its getting inconsequential anyhow, but what the heck...on last.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Miho was the vice-commander, so we can assume that she's supposed to be able to take care of herself.
irrelevant. they have radio. Command still rests with Maho. what they're doing should still be under the direction of Maho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I doubt that their maps are to military standards since they're not actually in the military.
and I doubt Senshado, being a powerful and long standing organization able to stop the normal functions of a WHOLE CITY, not to mention replacing all those damages, apart from being a National heritage. would be using shitty maps.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The whys of their advance aren't that important. It's obvious that it could have been executed better. Going that route was risky to begin with, but it's much less so if it was properly scouted. Maho might not have known that because she wasn't there, so Miho should have taken the initiative in her absence.
as I've said Maho was never "absent" to begin with, they always have radio com. and again they were there under Maho's orders, scouting is Maho's responsibility, even before ordering Miho & company there, as well changing tactics one hearing about changes in situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
How can the tanks be positioned properly when they can't even maneuver?
given the limited choices they have, would you rather have the Flag tank up front or way back? where it's open to attack, given their situation the Tank- Flag tank- other Tank positioning IS the proper position. don't even know why you're bringing in maneuverability in the equation.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Exposing a Tiger I to the front isn't a big problem since it has a lot of armor protecting it. It can cover the scouting Pz. III with the big 88 in case someone does spring an ambush. While they were still on the near side of the path, the other Pz. III could look around for pursuers. We can be pretty sure Miho wasn't expecting any because if she was, she'd be unbuttoned and looking to the rear.
correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the front EXACTLY where pravda hit the flag tank to put it out of commission? So how isn't that a BIG PROBLEM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
They might have been trying to see where Miho ran off to.
yeah possible. but the tank AND the turret never moved an inch all through out that sequence. i don't know just kinda strange.I mean the back tank had the time to almost get in front...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
She split her command. The reason why isn't that important, but it probably has to do with protecting the flag tank while the main force tries to take out the Pravda flag tank. As reference, both Saunders and Ooarai split the flag tank away from the rest during their fight.
the 38t(their flag tank) was always with Miho, PzIV and the StugIII. the Type89, and the M3 separated to do some scouting. their fight with St.Gloriana didn't have a flag tank. but yeah Saunders left their sole flag tank hiding somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
They've won nine years in a row, and Maho could only have been part of the team for two of those years.
yup, I reiterate though that i don't think Maho and her mother was blaming Miho for the loss. and i'm pretty sure the Nishizumi family wouldn't be so callous as to hog all the glory to themselves ^^

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I totally agree. At that point, it was no longer a competition.
totally agree too, and it was a split second decision.
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Old 2012-11-28, 03:42   Link #1784
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A very interesting thought: Who is vice commander in the oarai team? While there are no official vice commander, "loud and stupid" momo seems to be filling the role: She is the one who gives the speech all the time, and ask the captain for final remarks (in the bathhouse). So God bless Miho do not let Momo's team out of her sight, otherwise Momo will have the authority (according to some who blame Miho for the loss in last year's match for not taking field orders) to order other team member, which will mean immediate doom to the oarai team.
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Old 2012-11-28, 03:54   Link #1785
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Time to put the "Girls" in "Girls Und Panzer" back in:

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The following image was supposedly drawn by Yukari's VA, Nakagami Ikumi:

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Old 2012-11-28, 04:18   Link #1786
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I am still puzzled by what part of "saving lives and doing one's duty are not exclusive to each other" is so hard to understand for most people. The situation was not "win or save lives", it was "at least tell your crew to retreat as you jump out to save your kameradinen". Miho did not do what she could have done as she was getting out, which is why I'm saying she didn't do her duty. If it was only her tank and the drowning one, if communication was cut off, if her tank was surrounded, etc, the I would say Miho did what she could, but the thing is within that match she wasn't in such a situation.
Let's say... even pronounce a "retreat" may take 0.5 second or slow you down, and believe me, sometime that's all to take you cross the border of death. Beside, "retreat" in that situation is just too vague, it has to be more long and detail command.

Either way... what could they do anyway? advance they are still death, backward? That's even more unreasonable, we might have another tanku drown.
The rear tank had a good decision to come forth and become a wall for Miho's tank immediately, good quick decision from that tank commander but that's all. I really think in that situation, Miho cannot do anything else.
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Old 2012-11-28, 04:26   Link #1787
Marina2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
A very interesting thought: Who is vice commander in the oarai team? While there are no official vice commander, "loud and stupid" momo seems to be filling the role: She is the one who gives the speech all the time, and ask the captain for final remarks (in the bathhouse). So God bless Miho do not let Momo's team out of her sight, otherwise Momo will have the authority (according to some who blame Miho for the loss in last year's match for not taking field orders) to order other team member, which will mean immediate doom to the oarai team.
ํีํํีI think Yukari is the unoffical vice-commander.

She always serve Miho as her adviser/helper on battlefield.
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Old 2012-11-28, 04:36   Link #1788
fukarming
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Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
ํีํํีI think Yukari is the unoffical vice-commander.

She always serve Miho as her adviser/helper on battlefield.
I mean out of the entire oarai team. Yukari is not involved in strategic meeting. Besides, assuming that once your tank is knocked out, you can't talk to your teammate (war game/ paintball rule?). If Miho's tank is knocked out, Yukari cannot take command since she is in the same tank as Miho.
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Old 2012-11-28, 04:39   Link #1789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garbage View Post
irrelevant. they have radio. Command still rests with Maho. what they're doing should still be under the direction of Maho.
Where does initiative come into play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by garbage View Post
and I doubt Senshado, being a powerful and long standing organization able to stop the normal functions of a WHOLE CITY, not to mention replacing all those damages, apart from being a National heritage. would be using shitty maps.
They're using vintage tanks, so it'd be normal to have limits in other areas as well. Besides, as I pointed out earlier, maps don't always have complete information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garbage View Post
as I've said Maho was never "absent" to begin with, they always have radio com. and again they were there under Maho's orders, scouting is Maho's responsibility, even before ordering Miho & company there, as well changing tactics one hearing about changes in situation.
Radio isn't a substitute for actually eyeing the situation. Sending out a scout is typical and commonplace, and should not require permission. If Maho can't see how awful the path is, she can't be expected to know whether a scout is called for. And really, I'm only talking about detaching a scout for a few minutes, and only maybe 1-2km ahead of the other two tanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garbage View Post
given the limited choices they have, would you rather have the Flag tank up front or way back? where it's open to attack, given their situation the Tank- Flag tank- other Tank positioning IS the proper position. don't even know why you're bringing in maneuverability in the equation.
That's a false dilemma. There are obvious ways to reduce the risk without committing the entire sub-unit. Maneuverability is important because with it, at least there's a chance of escaping an ambush. That's why the riverside path is such a deathtrap. They're trapped on the path and completely at the mercy of Pravda's guns. And the formation they adopted doesn't help in the slightest bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garbage View Post
correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the front EXACTLY where pravda hit the flag tank to put it out of commission? So how isn't that a BIG PROBLEM?
It depends on a few different factors. The important thing about armor and penetration is how far away the target is. Pravda advanced to get into firing position on the Tiger I. If Miho had been sitting at the far end of the path, it might well have also been too far away for Pravda's guns to penetrate as well.

World War II tanks have a huge advantage when they're sitting still, and a huge disadvantage when they're on the move. The Tiger I could have contributed a lot to the fight if it was in an overwatch position, but not when it's caught in the ambush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garbage View Post
yeah possible. but the tank AND the turret never moved an inch all through out that sequence. i don't know just kinda strange.I mean the back tank had the time to almost get in front...
The other Pz. III still had their commander, so it maintained some situational awareness. They might have cooler heads than Miho's crew as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garbage View Post
the 38t(their flag tank) was always with Miho, PzIV and the StugIII. the Type89, and the M3 separated to do some scouting. their fight with St.Gloriana didn't have a flag tank. but yeah Saunders left their sole flag tank hiding somewhere.
The 38(t) wasn't present when Miho bailed out the M3 when it was surrounded by Shermans, and it was there when they laid that ambush for the two Shermans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
A very interesting thought: Who is vice commander in the oarai team? While there are no official vice commander, "loud and stupid" momo seems to be filling the role: She is the one who gives the speech all the time, and ask the captain for final remarks (in the bathhouse). So God bless Miho do not let Momo's team out of her sight, otherwise Momo will have the authority (according to some who blame Miho for the loss in last year's match for not taking field orders) to order other team member, which will mean immediate doom to the oarai team.
Other than Yukari, they don't have anyone suitable for vice-commander. I'd pick Noriko (volleyball captain) after she's had a bit of seasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
ํีํํีI think Yukari is the unoffical vice-commander.

She always serve Miho as her adviser/helper on battlefield.
She'd be a great choice, but the vice-commander has to be in a different tank. And she pretty much has to be a tank commander as well.

The other criteria that she has to be familiar with tanks, good with tactics, and able to keep a cool head. Funny enough, Momo fulfills all of these except for the last one.
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Old 2012-11-28, 05:57   Link #1790
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I just want to share my opinion...
I believe Miho's family isn't really angry at Miho saving her friends and I believe they will treat Miho the same if she didn't saved her friends...

See, at that point, Miho only ever taste victory (which she admit this episode), this make her 'saving friend' act become an excuse and I believe her mother doesn't wish her to do that...
What she wish from Miho is for her to admit that she isn't good enough and keep trying to do the best...
My mother is like that, so... yeah, I guess it simply my experience...

Another point:
'No matter what the obstacle, Nishizumi will always advance' which I translate as: even if your opponent cheating, if you are good enough, you will win...
Nishizumi-way is thought to be the strongest, and to lose to Pravda - which Djarleeng (hope I get the name right) claimed using vulgar style - isn't an option...

Anyway, for me none of them (Miho or her family) is wrong, though I hate Miho's family approach to teach their 'way' and Miho solution to her problem: run away...
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Old 2012-11-28, 06:01   Link #1791
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I believe I'm sensing a great difference between myself and the majority of the posters here. I ultimately see no difference in Miho's duty to at least say "retreat" when she was in the position to be saying so and her duty in rescuing her kameradinen. Those two are NOT exclusive, and as someone who has been brought up in a military household, to think those are exclusive is the basic denial of what the Way is supposed to be. There are times when one cannot do their duty for the right thing, but those are exceptions to the standard, and Miho's situation was not where she had to forsake her duty for the right thing.

If we operate under the idea that Senshado is a martial art, then the idea that this is all just a game is in itself a corruption of what Senshado is. A true martial art puts duty on the same level as honor, and Miho not doing what she should be doing when she was able to do so was neglecting her duty. Shiho might have been extreme in her interpretation (or perhaps that is what the Nishizumi-ryu is like in general), but the basics of what she says is correct: One must advance, and this means one must do one's duty.
I do not speak from the view that Senshadou is a mere "sport". I speak in the same vein as peace time combat training. The same root from which all martial arts derived from.

Miho's priority in her duty changed from winning to saving her men when the accident occured. She doesn't deserve the crap treatment her family showered on her.

The fact that Nishizumi-ryu's philosophy apparently prizes victory over lives in Senshadou matches means that Miho most likely made the right choice in choosing to abandon that path. They adhere so rigidly to the principle of ”何があっても、前へ進む流派” that it's absurd. In fact it may be that they are the ones corrupting the spirit of the martial art.

Also whether she could have salvaged the strategic situation or not....they blundered into a death trap in the first place. Face it, that terrain is a killer to any heavy vehicle


Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Actually,

Martial Art = Sport

Have you ever heard of kendo, or judo, or fencing, or wrestling, or boxing?

The only time martial arts isn't a sport is when it's used in combat, which I'm sure we can all agree Senshado isn't.
They are not. Not as they are meant to be. They are a path meant to guide warriors to overcome adversaries with maximum effectiveness.

There is very good reason what you see on international kendo tournaments are not what kenjutsu practioners actually train in.
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Old 2012-11-28, 06:04   Link #1792
Cosmic Eagle
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On another note, I wonder if the school's history will be explored. It's like a whole other world deep inside those hulls
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Old 2012-11-28, 06:42   Link #1793
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Originally Posted by garbage View Post
in fact in a three tank unit as they have there, and forced into a single line they were positioned properly. (just like what they did with the PzIV - 38T - STUGIII combi against saunders) with one tank guarding the flag tank in front & one at the back. since they were not sure (and we are not sure) if the enemy could come up from behind. It was mere bad luck that the first shot against the front tank caused it to slide into the river.
I also think the lineup of the Black Forest tanks there is correct, with the flag being protected front and back. The wrong thing is why they are there in that difficult terrain? There's even bad weather that makes that path even more dangerous because of the slippery road.

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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Personally, I doubt the idea even crossed her mind. And that's good. Because in that situation you shouldn't even be thinking about the match at all. Maybe, maybe she could have given a snap-order that could have saved the flag tank as she jumped out to help the others. But the fact that she didn't shows that she was thinking about exactly what she should have been thinking about in that situation: saving the people drowning.
Referrring to the parts that I put in bold. And I agree.

My opinion is that scene shows Miho is only human. People can make comment "issue quick orders to flag tank crew before rushing to save drowning team members" - but remember, we're in front of computer calmly typing, and not in that tense situation at all (tanks shooting, raining hard, people about to die from drowning).

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Old 2012-11-28, 07:04   Link #1794
garbage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Where does initiative come into play?
Eh, what has that got to do with it. The things you are blaming Miho for are all high level strategy decisions. Did you think Miho would pass through there without Maho's knowledge? If you think they should not be there then blame Maho for commanding them to go there. In the least Maho would definitely be aware what Miho's unit is doing. and as I've said earlier IT WAS DONE WITH HER APPROVAL.
besides the first initiative should always come from the commander. scouting or otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
They're using vintage tanks, so it'd be normal to have limits in other areas as well. Besides, as I pointed out earlier, maps don't always have complete information.
Map making is NOT a modern art, WWII maps are definitely good enough. and elevation, impassibility, angling, inclinations, are in fact basic and present in far earlier military maps. It would be stranger if senshado uses MAPS that doesn't.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Radio isn't a substitute for actually eyeing the situation. Sending out a scout is typical and commonplace, and should not require permission. If Maho can't see how awful the path is, she can't be expected to know whether a scout is called for. And really, I'm only talking about detaching a scout for a few minutes, and only maybe 1-2km ahead of the other two tanks.
well no disagreement there, as i've stated in my previous post. Scouting is basic, but again this should have been Maho's responsibility. The two tanks with Miho should remain on guard duty. Besides I'm sure Maho already know the situation as Miho would definitely report that. As Miho and company are continuing on their advance.means they have Maho's approval on that course of action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
That's a false dilemma. There are obvious ways to reduce the risk without committing the entire sub-unit. Maneuverability is important because with it, at least there's a chance of escaping an ambush. That's why the riverside path is such a deathtrap. They're trapped on the path and completely at the mercy of Pravda's guns. And the formation they adopted doesn't help in the slightest bit.
well again you're mixing command levels there, we don't know why they are there in the first place, But it's pretty sure with the knowledge or even command of Maho. so What's the false Dilemma? they are already committed to that path, and what maneuverability would there be on that path? what I was saying earlier was with all that limitations of the Path, their formation was right as it provides a modicum of protection front and back. If you think being on that Path was the Mistake, then that falls on Maho. Maho could have as easily ordered them to retreat, once the condition of the path at that point was known (slippery with rain and low visibility) but definitely the passability should have been present on the map from the beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It depends on a few different factors. The important thing about armor and penetration is how far away the target is. Pravda advanced to get into firing position on the Tiger I. If Miho had been sitting at the far end of the path, it might well have also been too far away for Pravda's guns to penetrate as well.
oh and you know this from? As i've said there was never any information on that sequence on how long the path was, or any curvature, and why they were even there, whats their purpose.. Or even where the Pravda tanks came from. So any tactic you think that "would have been better" like leaving Miho's tank at the end while sacrificing one of it's guard tank is hoping at best. All in hindsight.for all you know pravda also had units behind.
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
World War II tanks have a huge advantage when they're sitting still, and a huge disadvantage when they're on the move. The Tiger I could have contributed a lot to the fight if it was in an overwatch position, but not when it's caught in the ambush.
like i said we don't know the full situation, was there even a possible overwatch position as you're implying?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The other Pz. III still had their commander, so it maintained some situational awareness. [B]They might have cooler heads than Miho's crew as well[B].
exactly my point, they acted, the other crew members in Miho's tank froze or panicked, they would have time to get their bearings as shown by the other tank almost getting upfront.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The 38(t) wasn't present when Miho bailed out the M3 when it was surrounded by Shermans, and it was there when they laid that ambush for the two Shermans.
well that was the only time they left it behind as they can't really afford to split up their firepower anymore as it is. And they would definitely not bring it with them to charge an known stronger force, during the M3 rescue. a lucky shot to the 38t would be disastrous. Anyway Oarai's situation is more the exception I think with having really bad tanks, and poor firepower (on the other hand it seems Anzio's worse>.<)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Other than Yukari, they don't have anyone suitable for vice-commander. I'd pick Noriko (volleyball captain) after she's had a bit of seasoning.
I think I'll choose rommel, just personal bias

Anyway this is getting so tangential, as my only point from the beginning is that the only blame in Miho's part (for the loss) would be the abandonment of the tank (and as we both agree that was the correct decision at that point). As for their situation, placement or even unit action at that point we know nothing yet of the circumstances why it was like that,so you should not be quick to put the blame for that on Miho, which you are doing. In fact without anymore info at this point blame would be more on Maho being the commander. Not to mention Command responsibility. That's all.
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Old 2012-11-28, 07:32   Link #1795
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Leaving aside the question of Miho's responsibility..... Doesn't anyone find if strange how the front tank initially fell into the river? It seems Pravda intentionally fired in front of that tank to get it off the road in the first place. There were two shots, with the force basically pushing the tank off the cliff and thus exposing the flag tank. Could this be what people say about Pravda's vulgar tactics? If we remember the ending of their match in the previous episode, we also realize that there were TWO white flags on a single tank, possibly from double/triple hitting the same tank before the initial knockout flag came up.
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Old 2012-11-28, 07:43   Link #1796
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
we also realize that there were TWO white flags on a single tank, possibly from double/triple hitting the same tank before the initial knockout flag came up.
Mentioned something about that in a previous post. Wait, I'll find..

EDIT: Found post

A sherman was hit multiple times, but only one flag came out. I think it's very possible that the tank fighting against Pravda that raised two flags, was hit some more after it already surrendered.
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Old 2012-11-28, 07:44   Link #1797
garbage
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^^ hmm possible i guess , since White Flagging the front tank without pushing it to the side ( and into the river) would still cover Miho's flag tank... But that would be pretty Cold of them...
guess we'll know in the coming episodes.

^ yeah and the first white flag was bent like it was hit after it was raised.
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Old 2012-11-28, 09:08   Link #1798
LoweGear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
On another note, I wonder if the school's history will be explored. It's like a whole other world deep inside those hulls
I'm just wondering whether we see any more significant interiors at all. A ship as large as that cannot possibly have just endless corridors inside it. If smaller cruise ships and aircraft carriers can fit all manner of stuff inside them, the Academy Warship could very well hold an "interior town" below deck. We did see the Saunder's ship having massive spaces inside it as shown with its tank hangar, I'd like to see something similar for the Oarai ship as well.

An another note, it's time to blow some minds:

YouTube
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And an Official Poster:

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Merry Christmas!
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Old 2012-11-28, 10:10   Link #1799
Dragonkid11
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YES,Santa Claus bikini

Still no sign of pantyshot,not that I care about that
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Old 2012-11-28, 10:33   Link #1800
garbage
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nice, any clear scan + stitch of that poster around?
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