Psycho-Pass - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It is quite amazing, really. The amount of people here who genuinely believe Sybil's every word is gospel. And that if they do everything Sybil asks, everything would be fine... Truly, a Theocracy in action.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Stop putting words in people's mouths.


I'm not saying you're a proponent for chaos and people getting away with murder and rape, am I? Because I don't make dumbass assumptions about people.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Irl rapists also have all kinds of excuses for their actions. Don't buy any of those either.

You know, the way a story works, if you don't buy into it, you don't get the story. The fact that the guy snapped because of the system wasn't a coincidence. It was made that way by Gen to deliver a hint.

Originally Posted by Dengar

By Sibyl's logic, their contribution to society as a whole counts as more than attonement. Whether you agree with that or not is up to you of course.

IIRC Akane's answer to that argument was "That's pretty convenient". So yeah, I don't buy it either.

Originally Posted by Dengar

If you view it like that, Makishima would be nothing more than a tool to change a flawed system into a slightly less flawed system.

But Akane can't see him like that. So, what will she do? At the very least I think she will manage to screw Sybil one way or another.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by merakses

There is absolutely no way for a painless transition to a Sybil-free society. Even if Akane knows Sybil's real form, she doesn't really have any solid proof. In order to overthrow it(them?), she would obviously have to share the information with others - and at this point she gets rammed by a classical Morton's Fork, since:
-she either leaks the information to a large amount of people (on the net, for example), and hopes that, even without solid proof, the resentment which has built towards Sybil among certain social classes will lead them to try and change society. Result: chaos, anarchy, riots, etc.
-or she tries to convince a small number of key people high up in the 'hierarchy' set up by Sybil... and you completely fail, since the kinds of people who benefit most from the system aren't likely to believe you that the system is 250 evil brains in jars... especially when you have no evidence.

In any case, even supposing she did have the necessary organized support from at least a part of the population (which she doesn't, and she can't obtain), there is still the matter of Sybil controlling not only the CID, but also the Border Control division... and those not-very-friendly-looking huge drones of theirs.

There are two separate issues; militant opposition by Sybil itself, and the mindless citizen's response to the change in government.

You don't need to convince people there are 250 brains in jars. You just need to remove them without telling anyone. Because the population didn't know they exist, they can't miss what they never knew about.

Population support is also unnecessary. Sybil had designed the country to be automated in order to shield itself from being exposed to the public. This means there is a massive firewall separating the government from the citizens. Government functions are automated when possible, so there are less people who can spill the beans.

Is irt going to be an issue to fight Sybil when Sybil has all the weapons? Yes. But that's not an insurmountable issue, because Sybil is not designed to oppose real threats. Sybil is weaker than it appears.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It is quite amazing, really. The amount of people here who genuinely believe Sybil's every word is gospel. And that if they do everything Sybil asks, everything would be fine... Truly, a Theocracy in action.

I don't believe every word of Sybil is gospel. Who even said that?

I think it is extremely messed up system, I just don't think Akane's ultimate answer will be destruction. I am not really sure why you think that is the only way to deal with the system.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I don't believe every word of Sybil is gospel. Who even said that?

I think it is extremely messed up system, I just don't think Akane's ultimate answer will be destruction. I am not really sure why you think that is the only way to deal with the system.

Then answer my previous question. What happens when Sybil responded to Akane's demands with military force?

There are 101 ways Japan could be reformed. But if Sybil wants to go down fighting, then there are very few peaceful choices.

[Dengar]

Add more brains is one option I can think of.

Replacing brains is another but may be more difficult.


Either way, it's to introduce a balancing factor.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It is very ruthless. Ruthless simply means "Without compassion or pity".

If you don't think thinking about the most good for the most people is compassion, then we disagree about basic terminology at the most fundamental level and any discussion will be largely academic.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Add more brains is one option I can think of.

Replacing brains is another but may be more difficult.


Either way, it's to introduce a balancing factor.

Both require Sybil cooperation. Sybil has not cooperated with anyone in the entire series so far. So what is the odds of them starting now?

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Then answer my previous question. What happens when Sybil responded to Akane's demands with military force?

There are 101 ways Japan could be reformed. But if Sybil wants to go down fighting, then there are very few peaceful choices.

And what makes you think Akane won't come to an answer that doesn't lead the Sybil system to respond like that?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Add more brains is one option I can think of.

Why don't we let the brains inside people, when they're suppose to be, and let the people take decisions by themselves?

That sounds more like a plan to me.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

And what makes you think Akane won't come to an answer that doesn't lead the Sybil system to respond like that?

She could blackmail it. She already did with the Kogami thing. Maybe she could find a way to go further on that note.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

And what makes you think Akane won't come to an answer that doesn't lead the Sybil system to respond like that?

You think she can tell Sybil to step down, like some Fallout 3 Speech Challenge?

You can believe that if you want. But there is no benefit to Sybil in helping her. They are just unelected bureaucrats with absolute power. They don't step down without threatening violence in some form. And since Akane is out-gunned in the long run, she would have to shoot first instead of bargaining.

Reform harms Sybil. Sybil will kill anyone who harms it. Thus Sybil will harm anyone who want reform. Simple logic.

[Dengar]

If she can convince the system that certain changes are beneficial to the masses, it'll work.

I'm not saying it's easy. But if anyone can find a way it's her. If you think she can't do it without violence, then you don't have enough faith in her.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dengar

If she can convince the system that certain changes are beneficial to the masses, it'll work.

I'm not saying it's easy. But if anyone can find a way it's her. If you think she can't do it without violence, then you don't have enough faith in her.

I have faith in her; I have NO FAITH in Sybil. It is not up to her what 250 criminals would do when their problems can all go away by simply disintegrating a human woman.

And that's what Sybil has shown to do. There is no way for a person judged criminal by Sybil to be reformed. Either incarceration or death was the choices. Akane would be deemed a threat. And Sybil only react one way towards threats.

[Kirarakim]

If Gen Urobuchi wants Akane to completely destroy the system then he could have Makishima for that, I am not really sure what he needs Akane for. And in fact there were plenty of opportunities in the narrative for that.

It's pretty clear to me that Akane is similar to Madoka in that she will come up with another solution.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

If Gen Urobuchi wants Akane to completely destroy the system then he could have Makishima for that, I am not really sure what he needs Akane for. And in fact there were plenty of opportunities in the narrative for that.

It's pretty clear to me that Akane is similar to Madoka in that she will come up with another solution.

You seem to not understand. Makishima doesn't want any system at all, while Akane just want laws to apply to everyone including the government.

Akane's job is to push for a new system of government. Destruction of Sybil would be a side effect and not the goal.

Sybil is NOT Japan. Akane wants what's best for her people, not what's best for Sybil.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And that's what Sybil has shown to do. There is no way for a person judged criminal by Sybil to be reformed. Either incarceration or death was the choices. Akane would be deemed a threat. And Sybil only react one way towards threats.

Riiight, treatment isn't possible. And the rape victim didn't get treatment and rehabilitation. And drones and cute AI sprites don't warn people of their hues getting a bit greenish. And the Crime Coefficient didn't go down when the rape victim dropped her lighter.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Riiight, treatment isn't possible. And the rape victim didn't get treatment and rehabilitation. And drones and cute AI sprites don't warn people of their hues getting a bit greenish. And the Crime Coefficient didn't go down when the rape victim dropped her lighter.

Warnings only count until Sybil over-rides it and simply kills you anyway.

No point hiding behind the computer when the human brains change it to suit themselves.

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Riiight, treatment isn't possible. And the rape victim didn't get treatment and rehabilitation. And drones and cute AI sprites don't warn people of their hues getting a bit greenish. And the Crime Coefficient didn't go down when the rape victim dropped her lighter.

So it could be said that the woman's high crime coefficient didn't go below be due to Sybil? I mean thanks to the system people's stress is really low and if they go through a traumatic experience it will be hard to recover since they haven't met difficulties before. Outside Psycho Pass, a person that was sexually assaulted can recover but it takes a lot of time involving therapy. It's possible that the woman from the first episode could recover but it would take even more time.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Sybil is NOT Japan. Akane wants what's best for her people, not what's best for Sybil.

Did I say otherwise. I said she would CHANGE not destroy the system.

Whether you like to believe it or not Akane agreed with Sybil that there are some things about the system that work.

That doesn't mean she thinks the Sybil system as it is now is a good system but that doesn't mean she has to completely destroy everything about it.

Makishima's goal was to destroy Sybil and if Japan was destroyed in the process than that would be better than how it is now. His ultimate goal was not destruction of Japan, that was just a by product.

But even ignoring Makishima we were already shown the answer of exposing the system. If that was the answer it would have happened in the narrative already.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Did I say otherwise. I said she would CHANGE not destroy the system.

Whether you like to believe it or not Akane agreed with Sybil that there are some things about the system that work.

That doesn't mean she thinks the Sybil system as it is now is a good system but that doesn't mean she has to completely destroy everything about it.

Makishima's goal was to destroy Sybil and if Japan was destroyed in the process than that would be better than how it is now. His ultimate goal was not destruction of Japan, that was just a by product.

But even ignoring Makishima we were already shown the answer of exposing the system. If that was the answer it would have happened in the narrative already.

My point stands, The reason Sybil will be destroyed is not because of what Akane wants, but because it is the only way for Sybil to give up power.

I am not making the case that Sybil needs to die because of justice. That's a separate issue. I am saying Sybil is the major obstacle to reform and that I can't see any way to not blow a hole right through it to proceed.

Sybil has every reason to kill Akane if they feel they need to. Your insistence that Akane can solve everything peacefully assumes a reasonable Sybil, which does not exist.