To Aru Majutsu no Index - Light Novel - Power Level Discussion

[tsunade666]

ugh.... power level. I've been gone for few days or week due to job hunting and now this.

power level in index verse is pretty useless because its like playing paper,rock,scissor with brains, bluff and strategy in between the battle -_-

what's the purpose?

Unless the power difference is vastly different then their is no meaning to it. Plus its more like teamwork battle here even though its not really pure teamwork but same goal and different methods done to beat the enemy.

Its more like the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[Ashaman]

Originally Posted by dniv

You're being really rude. I don't feel like arguing.

P.S. I did read the legend.

P.P.S. about Birdway... (the actual truth)

Spoiler for NT 6 Birdway:

NT 6 reveals that she is a monster that could beat a saint through her power and skill even if she couldn't beat them head on. If you are treating power level as unrelated to your natural abilities, like saying that Seria= level 0 power... then I would agree with the fact that she isn't that strong. Otherwise, I disagree.

In the case of Volume 22: she said that she wasn't saving the world to be good, she was saving it to take control of it for herself and her cabal. That's definitely what I got out of it. That's very different from saying I'm too weak to handle it. She obviously wasn't scared at all in that situation... Just saying... She was saying her intentions weren't good: she was making an ironic joke. This is definitely what I interpreted it as saying. I guess you might also be theoretically able to interpret it the other way, but I don't see it/understand it that way.

P.P.P.S. It's a good chart. I was saying it could be improved. It's an opinion. I was giving some critical feedback. Is that a problem? People accomplish things, making better charts, by taking critical feedback and doing something about it... just saying. You work and you work to get results...

Spoiler for NT 6:

like Levinia Birdway.

Otherwise, a person/character is weak.

P.P.P.P.S. (if you're saying Touma's power isn't his own ability, then......... that's silly...) his power is his ability... Touma can use IB... so his power is the power of IB... what about that isn't obvious?... Every aspect of IB is part of Touma's power. In terms of Gemstones, their abilities are their own powers. Touma is like that even if he is technically a special case. I guess it's still too early to speculate,

Spoiler for Vol 22:

but you should be able to see why I wouldn't think that you should separate Touma and the thing inside his right hand that is stored within Imagine Breaker at this point anyway... It's like saying that Accelerator is as strong as he would be if he were brain damaged or if he didn't have the sisters network to help him... he has those things, so why care about whether or not he wouldn't have that ability... Touma's strength right now should be the limit of his ability. The thing inside IB activates without leaving Touma's hand. It just expands. This makes me consider it to be part of his abilities. Think about it; it never attacks Touma, so it seems to be either part of his subconscious ability or some other ability that ends up doing the work for him as of now.

Lastly...

Spoiler for Rikou NT6, NT7:

I am not talking about her AIM stalker. That is a level 4 power. I am talking about what Kihara Yuiitsu is after in her project when she said that Rikou's power development is going well and gave it a gold. Rikou was not able to influence Dark Matter during the Battle Royale Arc, but she was able to do so later on in NT 5 or 6.

Rikou's power has shown considerable growth considering that it can work on Dark Matter, the #2. If it grew strong enough to affect the #1, she could potentially seal any espers powers by messing with their AIM fields. She could also give herself any power... that's what the current goal of Kihara Yuiitsu and the dog seems to be anyway... I mean that was the next best plan after Agitate Halation. Thinking about that, I really don't see why Rikou wouldn't eventually be much more powerful. I didn't say that she's that powerful yet.... I said she will be. When I said I was speculating, I said I was talking about what will most certainly happen. It's obvious the Kiharas plan is already taking effect. Considering they got so far along with Agitate Halation, I don't see how they wouldn't at least make her a level 5 at this rate... Yuiitsu and the dog are really really smart... when it comes to succeeding with their plans. It might just take a few volumes for them to get anything done because they are waiting for a new patron to fund them... If Rikou had the power to give herself any ability at any time and take away any other espers ability, she would not be a side character, she would be on the frontlines. I don't even know why we're arguing about this.

I said this should change on the next chart, not on this chart. I was noting that it probably will change soon. That's all. What I said about Misaki was just that she was a lot stronger than what people gave her credit for. She did fight people in NT 7. She did a pretty good job of it also. Since she was taking care of a lot of foes at once, she can obviously fight and she's good at it... why call her a side character that can't fight. That doesn't make sense. She did fight along with the other level 5's, and did a pretty good job about it until animals attacked her.

Say you don't want to argue. Continue to argue.

I'm getting mixed signals there mate.

NT 6 reveals that she is a monster that could beat a saint through her power and skill even if she couldn't beat them head on

So? Vento could also probably defeat a Saint with Divine Punishment.

What's your point?

If you look at where Birdway is poitioned, you'd say that everyone above her is moving in to Angel Territory.

In the case of Volume 22: she said that she wasn't saving the world to be good, she was saving it to take control of it for herself and her cabal.

That's probably true. But the thing is, you were saying before that she went around saving the world by stopping the golden arms, but so did half the other people in that section

It's a good chart. I was saying it could be improved. It's an opinion. I was giving some critical feedback. Is that a problem?

By itself? No. But my opinion conflicts with yours. So I say so.

but you should be able to see why I wouldn't think that you should separate Touma and the thing inside his right hand that is stored within Imagine Breaker at this point anyway...

Its not stored inside IB, IB stores it inside Touma's body - or so the current speculation goes.

The thing inside IB activates without leaving Touma's hand. It just expands. This makes me consider it to be part of his abilities. Think about it; it never attacks Touma, so it seems to be either part of his subconscious ability or some other ability that ends up doing the work for him as of now.

But the one time Touma acknowledges it, he refers to it as though its something else, something separate from him.

That great power was smashed in an instant.

“...You,” muttered Kamijou as his lips moved. “I don’t know who you are.”

His words were not especially loud.

And yet they still stabbed into the depths of Fiamma’s ears. His heart uncontrollably went on such high guard that he felt like overlooking a single twitch of a finger or blink of an eye could have a major effect on the outcome of the battle.

“And I don’t know what you’re trying to do.”

Kamijou was not looking at Fiamma of the Right, the possessor of the greatest power even among God’s Right Seat.

Fiamma did not know what he was speaking to.

“But…”

That may have been something only Kamijou Touma could understand.

At any rate, he continued to speak.

“…You stay silent. I’ll take care of this.”

Rikou was not able to influence Dark Matter during the Battle Royale Arc, but she was able to do so later on in NT 5 or 6.

Wrong. She did mess with his AIM.

“That search esper used your AIM to mess up your Personal Reality, right? Shouldn’t you check on that? Your power going out of control would be much more dangerous than a half-defeated member of ITEM. And I’d rather not die from an ally who went out of control.”

Rikou could also give herself any power...

No, I don't think she can.

If she could actually do that…

Personal Realities were the source from which all psychic powers and phenomena were brought into the real world. If they could be controlled, it would mean more than just increasing or decreasing an esper’s level. Simply put, Hamazura Shiage could be given the power of Railgun and Mugino Shizuri could be brought down to being a Level 0. Controlling them would give one the ability to switch out powers and modify the system at will. Dual Skills would enter the field of reality. In that way, reason and skill could be ignored and ridiculous results could be created.

She would be able to give someone any power she wanted at any time she wanted and she would be able to rob someone of any power she wanted at any place she wanted. If she wanted to, she could increase the number of Level 5s or she could strip any opposing esper, even the Number One known as Accelerator, of their Personal Realities and then kill them while they were defenseless.

That went even beyond becoming the Queen of Academy City.

There was only one word that accurately referred to that kind of existence.

“Takitsubo Rikou alone could carry out every function that Academy City does,” said the woman in the helmet and suit giving her response. “No, if she could instantly create whatever power at whatever level she wished and discard that power at any time if it was no longer necessary, she would be able to produce espers even better than Academy City can.”

She was a person with an overwhelming value.

She even overturned the idea that there were only seven Level 5s.

She could give other people powers, but she herself is a different story all together. All of Hamazura's speculation is to do with what Rikou could do to other people.

I don't even know why we're arguing about this.

Partially because you are making stuff up and partially because your opinion clashes with mine.

[judasmartel]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

ugh.... power level. I've been gone for few days or week due to job hunting and now this.

power level in index verse is pretty useless because its like playing paper,rock,scissor with brains, bluff and strategy in between the battle -_-

what's the purpose?

Unless the power difference is vastly different then their is no meaning to it. Plus its more like teamwork battle here even though its not really pure teamwork but same goal and different methods done to beat the enemy.

Its more like the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Well, in a series as popular as this, people want to know who beats who, and if it's even possible for an underdog to defeat a much powerful opponent.

But then, like in One Piece, power levels in TAMNI don't work in the same way "who beats who" charts usually do. And I like that. Although, this could be a double-edged sword, because some readers who happen to stumble across this chart would feel they have a legitimate reason to call Ass Pull on victories that they think shouldn't happen anyway (especially Touma vs pretty much anyone not named Accelerator and Shiage vs Mugino).

Like I said, I like power levels in TAMNI not working in a "who beats who" format, because an underdog can defeat a much powerful opponent through good tactics and a little bit of luck.

[Marina2]

About Rikou,

Spoiler for Rikou up to NT7:

If you can accept the use of weapon as a skill (like Frenda) You can also put her in Combat part.

Lv5 Rikou will be the top of all esper because she can turn all espers into lv0 (automatically send them to the bottom of the chart) and finish them of with any weapons.

Actually, during NT, we have seen that Rikou seems to have very high physical strength. Look what she can break/bent with her bare hands!. Train her some basic close combat and she can just knock out everyone she turned to level 0 with her bare hand. LOL

While those "what she could do?" is Hamazura's speculation, it's also the message from the author to readers so, there is a high chance that she can do everything mentioned there or else why would the author mention about them in the first place?

Oh and I think she may do even better than Rensa at lv5 or else those Kiraha family won't interest in her that much right?

[judasmartel]

I wish we could see Rikou in hand-to-hand combat on a consistent basis. That way she doesn't have to rely on her powers so often.

[Ashaman]

Originally Posted by Marina2

About Rikou,

Spoiler for Rikou up to NT7:

If you can accept the use of weapon as a skill (like Frenda) You can also put her in Combat part.

Lv5 Rikou will be the top of all esper because she can turn all espers into lv0 (automatically send them to the bottom of the chart) and finish them of with any weapons.

Actually, during NT, we have seen that Rikou seems to have very high physical strength. Look what she can break/bent with her bare hands!. Train her some basic close combat and she can just knock out everyone she turned to level 0 with her bare hand. LOL

While those "what she could do?" is Hamazura's speculation, it's also the message from the author to readers so, there is a high chance that she can do everything mentioned there or else why would the author mention about them in the first place?

Oh and I think she may do even better than Rensa at lv5 or else those Kiraha family won't interest in her that much right?

The thing is, even if she has super strength or whatever, if she never, ever uses them in combat, what's the point?

And yes, there is a high chance she can do everything mentioned there. When she is a Level 5.

And what I was pointing out is that, in that list, there is zero mention of her doing those things to herself. She most likely can't make herself a Level 5 Pyro, or give hereslf Dual Skill, but doing it to others is possible.

Its always in the context of what she could give or take from other people.

If/When she develops into a Level 5 and if/when she starts using those abilites in actual fights, then yes, she should be moved into the Combat leagues.

But as it stands now, at this moment, she's purely support, and the only instance of her in an actual fight is the off screen fight versus Kakine in which she proves little more than an annoyance.

“Well, she did pretty well considering that she had no direct battle power. She must have used her search power to interfere with my AIM diffusion field and then ‘reversed the flow’ in an attempt to take control of my power. Really, if she grew some more she could even become the 8th.”

“Just so you know, she collapsed on her own,” said the girl in the dress. “It’s because she forced herself to keep using Body Crystal in order to fight us in this building. If we had seriously attacked her, there wouldn’t have been even a scrap of flesh left.”

She fought well and messed with Kakine, but from the way they talk neither Measure Heart nor Kakine took her seriously and she exhuasted herself.

[Marina2]

@Ashaman

I only give my theory about what Rikou Power level should be when she's level 5. I didn't really intend my post to be about whether her power should be 'combat type' or 'support type'. The real goal of my post is to say that Rikou can use her power to fight if she want.

About your points, aren't the basic of the power level discussion in this topic is about what can character do with their power, their strength etc. Why can't we assume about what can Rikou do with her full potential at Lv5

Reduce one esper level to 0 and finish him/her off with other methods is one of combo she may able to do easily when she's lv5. Even if she can't fight or not interest to fight now, Rikou may try to train her body to be able to fight in the future. Actually, even she won't train to fight, knock out a powerless person won't be that hard with a tool (i.e. a baseball bat, a stun gun) especially in a necessary situation.

And........Huh?? I never said anything about "she can do those things to herself" in my post. I only talked about what is stated in the novel, but of course, if she can, it would be nice.

[Ashaman]

Originally Posted by Marina2

@Ashaman

I only give my theory about what Rikou Power level should be when she's level 5. I didn't really intend my post to be about whether her power should be 'combat type' or 'support type'. The real goal of my post is to say that Rikou can use her power to fight if she want.

About your points, aren't the basic of the power level discussion in this topic is about what can character do with their power, their strength etc. Why can't we assume about what can Rikou do with her full potential at Lv5

Reduce one esper level to 0 and finish him/her off with other methods is one of combo she may able to do easily when she's lv5. Even if she can't fight or not interest to fight now, Rikou may try to train her body to be able to fight in the future. Actually, even she won't train to fight, knock out a powerless person won't be that hard with a tool (i.e. a baseball bat, a stun gun) especially in a necessary situation.

And........Huh?? I never said anything about "she can do those things to herself" in my post. I only talked about what is stated in the novel, but of course, if she can, it would be nice.

Meh, ignore me.

I still had the things Dniv was saying in my head and put everything you said in that sort of context.

Sorry about that.

The thing that is weird about Rikou is that, although she could stand at the top (near the top. Angel Wing Accelerator and Awakened Dark Matter may not follow standard Esper rules) of Espers, she would be useless against Magicians.

So she could fight, but she'd be really specialized.

Frankly, she'd be a similar sort of existence to Touma in that her main offensive ability would be to negate other people's offensive ability.

That also comes with the same weaknesses, namely that if she ever came up against someone with superior physical fighting skills, she'd be just a normal girl.

If you were to put it in the context of the chart, you'd place Level 5 Rikou somewhere between Rensa and Winged Accelerator, or possibly above him. But you'd give her the same "Special" border as Touma.

[Marina2]

Hmm...look like we have finally come to an agreement about Rikou

...........................................

Next, about Misaki. I think she is very powerful.

While we can see that her power probably won't effect any Lv5s that have higher rank than her (Can Mugino defend Miksaki 's mind-control??? - I'm not sure) but what if she use her power on magic side characters?

Okey, it probaby won't work on Angel, Magic God, God right seat members, Super-being like Aiwass or high-class magicians like Aleister Crowley and saints but what about magic-side characters below those level?

Who will or will not affect by Misaki power? How powerful they are as a magician that will grant them the immunity to Misaki's power?

P.S. I don't really expect someone can give me the answer.....

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by Marina2

Hmm...look like we have finally come to an agreement about Rikou

...........................................

Next, about Misaki. I think she is very powerful.

While we can see that her power probably won't effect any Lv5s that have higher rank than her (Can Mugino defend Miksaki 's mind-control??? - I'm not sure) but what if she use her power on magic side characters?

Okey, it probaby won't work on Angel, Magic God, God right seat members, Super-being like Aiwass or high-class magicians like Aleister Crowley and saints but what about magic-side characters below those level?

Who will or will not affect by Misaki power? How powerful they are as a magician that will grant them the immunity to Misaki's power?

P.S. I don't really expect someone can give me the answer.....

Remember what Brunhild said on NT4, any magician would be prepared against mental attacks, Tsuchimikado make it clear as well on NT7 any magician would be prepared against simple curses like the one he used to defeat Seria.

Also, I recall Tsuchimikado isn't top tier but still with his limitation of being an hybrid he was able to make a barrier that worked partially against the grand magic that was Angel Fall.

[Karna]

Made this for another forum.

Tier 1
Aiwass

Tier 2
Aleister Crowley
Fiamma of The Right (La Persona Superiore a Dio)
Gabriel/Misha

Tier 2.5
Othinus (50/50 probability manipulation)
Fiamma (Base)
Accelerator (White Wings)
Rensa (White Wings)
Ollerus
Kazakiri Hyouka

Tier 3
Fiamma (Depowered, No Right Arm)
Accelerator (Black Wings)
Rensa (Black Wings)
Johns Pen Mode Index
Carissa (Curtana Original)

Tier 4
Kakine Teitoku (Dark Kakine)
Kakine Teitoku (Beetle 05)
Accelerator (Base)
Acqua of the Back
The Knight Leader (Hrunting)
Queen Elizard (Curtana Second)
Vento of The Front (Divine Punishment)
Rensa #28
Rensa #29
Aureolus Izzard
Vento of the Front (Queen of the Adriatic Sea)
Mjölnir
Brunhild Eiktobel (Gungnir)
Vasilissa
Maiden of Versailles
Carissa (Shards Of Curtana Original)

Tier 4.5
Marian Slingeneyer (Danseif)
Etzali (Two Grimiores)
Kanzaki Kaori
Brunhild Eiktobel (Base)
Mugino Shizuri (Meltdowner Arm)
Kakine Teitoku (Awakened, Pre-Revival)
Thor (Hooked to Mjolnir)
Silvia

Tier 5
Kakine Teitoku (Base, Pre-Revival)
Levenia Birdway
Terra Of The Left
Mugino Shizuri
Sogiita Gunha
Misaka Mikoto
Kihara Byrouri (Using Dark Matter)
Kihara Kagun


Tier 6
AIM Burst
Kuroyoru Umidori (Thousands Of Mechanical Arms)
Shokuhou Misaki (With Exterior)
Hamazura Shaige (Five-Over)
Silvercross Alpha (Five-Over)
Thor (Base)


Tier 7
Bayloupe
Itsuwa
Lessar
Aureolus Dummy
Awaki Musujime
Kinuhata Saiai
Hamazura Shiage (Dragon Rider)
Komaba Ritoku
Tsuchimikado Motoharu
Tatemiya Saiji
Sherry Cromwell
Xochitl
Yamisaka Ouma
Kihara Byrouri (Wheelchair)
Marian Slingeneyer (Golden Items)

Tier 8
Sugitani
Misaka Worst
Measure Heart
Angelene
Agnese Sanctis
Frenda
Kihara Amata
Floris
Kongou Mitsuko
Lucia
Misaka Sisters
Shirai Kuroko
Hattori Hanzou
Kuroyoru Umidori (base)

[Ihaxlikenoob]

No Touma, or even the Invisible Thing?

[Karna]

Not sure where to put him. That, and the list is still incomplete.

[shmaster]

http://www47.atwiki.jp/index-battle/pages/13.html

I am still a supporter of this on-going ranking from 2ch. Although I do contest where they put Thor and Levinia.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Ashaman

Meh, ignore me.

I still had the things Dniv was saying in my head and put everything you said in that sort of context.

Sorry about that.

The thing that is weird about Rikou is that, although she could stand at the top (near the top. Angel Wing Accelerator and Awakened Dark Matter may not follow standard Esper rules) of Espers, she would be useless against Magicians.

So she could fight, but she'd be really specialized.

Frankly, she'd be a similar sort of existence to Touma in that her main offensive ability would be to negate other people's offensive ability.

That also comes with the same weaknesses, namely that if she ever came up against someone with superior physical fighting skills, she'd be just a normal girl.

If you were to put it in the context of the chart, you'd place Level 5 Rikou somewhere between Rensa and Winged Accelerator, or possibly above him. But you'd give her the same "Special" border as Touma.

I don't see why you say this. I understand where you are coming from now because you are saying it doesn't specifically say she can't power herself up. Ok that makes more sense. I thought you were saying that conversation never happened and she couldn't do any of that level 5 stuff. That was my misconception. She might be able to affect her power, we just have to wait to find out if it does happen.

Though... I do kind of think that she would be able to affect her own powers... otherwise... why would AC say that they wouldn't need any of the other level 5's, but just her because she could produce any power at any time and then get rid of it. They kind of said that she was the only necessary esper (which would mean she could probably do it to herself, unless I interpreted it wrong).

As to Birdway... sure... but she's still really strong. I guess Vento can do a larger scale spell... I don't think she could beat Acqua though and I'm not sure whether or not Birdway could. Birdway probably could because of her skill/manipulation... but this is just speculation...

I'm really not trying to pick a fight

I said I didn't want to argue... then I waited like a full day before adding more stuff... originally all I said was that I didn't want to argue I was kind of busy that night...

Anyway, I agree with pretty much everything else you said. I still don't see why you got so mad at me I was just stating what I thought was true... it's not like I haven't read the series as well and know absolutely nothing... I just interpreted some of the stuff differently...

BTW:

I think tiers is a good way of measuring their powers.

About the thing inside Touma's arm: I disagree. I think it goes with IB. Why else would it have messed up Rensa. I mean I'm pretty sure it was the thing inside IB, that other force, which made her overload and explode her arm.

I never said the arm was part of Touma's will... it's definitely separate from him. It just seems to do things that are favorable for him every time we've seen it. It's like one of the level 5's and it's super power boost... that level 5 doesn't want to use it if it isn't necessary...

BTW: when I was talking about Rikou other than the her powering herself up, I was talking about that, if she were potentially a level 5... I wasn't talking about what she could do now... other than my misconception (possibly not though) I don't see how I actually said anything there any different from Marina...

Anyway... maybe I just like Birdway/Rikou more than Terra and want them to be more powerful for those reasons

Anyway, I really don't want to argue more about this. I'll just say you're generally right except for the ambiguous parts...

[versionf]

Originally Posted by dniv

As to Birdway... sure... but she's still really strong. I guess Vento can do a larger scale spell... I don't think she could beat Acqua though and I'm not sure whether or not Birdway could. Birdway probably could because of her skill/manipulation... but this is just speculation...

Human bodies have limits, Major Arcana could temporary buff Birdway to supersonic movements, anymore would probably be a bad idea. Normal magician that got up to Saint level is Thor, and we saw how his spell was wrecking his body. Saints that used a spell to push himself to the limit, like Kanzaki, could fight Archangel. Unless she has some grimoire hax or telesma hax, I don't see how she could beat a Saint (well maybe she could, but it wouldn't be easy), much less Acqua, a veteran fighter unlike most of the characters in the series, he has combat experiences for many years as mercenary.

Here's version 2.1, it might get updated soon but I'll post it anyway.

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by shmaster

http://www47.atwiki.jp/index-battle/pages/13.html

I am still a supporter of this on-going ranking from 2ch. Although I do contest where they put Thor and Levinia.

傾国の女（デュランダル）

lol. Some translators refers to her as prostitute .

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by shmaster

http://www47.atwiki.jp/index-battle/pages/13.html

I am still a supporter of this on-going ranking from 2ch. Although I do contest where they put Thor and Levinia.

Othinius not S+ though? And Angel Accelerator being same level as Kakine?

[leukrota]

So... who wins between "washing machine" and "vending machine"?

[judasmartel]

Vending Machine pwns freaking everything except the God Tier. EVEN Imagine Breaker (2000 yen) and Railgun (10000 yen).