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Old 2006-09-15, 13:06   Link #1021
rooboy
Umeboshi!
 
 
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I believe they turn it into implied sex - which is usually better anyway. I'm not necessarily for showing sex, it just seems odd to me that in a genre that comes out of games comprised of "adult situations", the animes usually completely skip the notion that people might be having "adult relations".
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Old 2006-09-15, 13:13   Link #1022
Eddi
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I realy expected him to end up with Kiri and near the end they wanted to spent the day together and he got her present for csimass and what hapened he just ended up with his cousin and they where living like a sister and brother and on the end he slept with her that just was too crazy what hapened with his feelings to Kiri and what he is thinking to end up with his cousin Too weird ending
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Old 2006-09-15, 16:17   Link #1023
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rooboy666
Though my favorite part, at the time and even now, was that we weren't given very much transparency into anyone's thoughts - so it makes interpretations of their motivations very interesting. In general the way a person interprets Canvas2 character motives tells us much more about the interpreter than about the Canvas2 characters - and it's not often you find it done as well as it was done in this show.
Yeah, that's a very good point indeed. Take this for what it's worth, but I find most English-speaking anime fans (especially those on these boards) have a very linear and literal (physical?) way of interpreting. I guess you could call it "blunt". They interpret bishoujo/eroge-based anime the same way they'd interpret a shounen action show: focused on action, choices, and plot progression. Their minds summarize the shows as "action bullets", even as they watch. Whereas I would argue that these sorts of shows are much more about emotions, symbolism and a certain "sentimentality" that is anything but a "straight line". There's a good reason why many people consider these shows more "shoujo" than "shounen" (despite the fanservice): so much of the plot is inferred through emotion rather than conveyed through action. I certainly found that to be the case with Canvas 2, along with a number of other shows in the genre. Don't get me wrong, though: it isn't a "flaw" or a "fault" that people interpret things in the linear/literal way, but I think it's one of the main reasons why the genre won't really take off in North America for a while. As a general rule, guys around here just don't "think emotionally", and it's not something you can just explain through logic. Maybe that makes sense, maybe that doesn't... but I guess I'll just say that I thought the ending (including after the credits) made sense on an emotional level.
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Old 2006-09-15, 17:16   Link #1024
Vexx
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Whereas in my case, the ending made emotional sense but the aftercredit image didn't because nothing had transpired to reach that scene. I just finished the Mahoraba manga series... and there's a time jump epilog at the end to show how everyone ended up -- and all the framework had been laid in the story so that the reader understood why the characters were where they were.

For me that didn't happen (though I've been told a few times now that the manga does a much better job of providing hints that Hiroki does indeed have those *kind* of feelings about Elise).

So I suppose by the categories relentless defines, I sit on the shoujo side of the fence but I keep glancing over at the shounen side. I prefer the shoujo "un-straight line" but OTOH ... the characters have to follow some minor behavioral patterns and choice making routines that one sees in real people.

The problem with that model is that often I find the shounen side makes no sense at all (bang, splat, my honor compels me to stupid choices, etc).
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Old 2006-09-15, 17:31   Link #1025
rooboy
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Of course this is neither - it's seinen, but I guess I'll leave my genre nazi hat off today.

EDIT: And I guess I must be the real extreme exception - plots only marginally interest me, it's themes that make me interested in a show.

EDIT 2: Well, or comedy - comedy goes a long way if I find it amusing.
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Old 2006-09-15, 18:31   Link #1026
Vexx
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Heh... I purposely ignore the so-called "categories" because in essence all they mean is that a particular property was marketed in certain channels.
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Old 2006-09-15, 19:01   Link #1027
rooboy
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Well, I think it's helpful as a way of distinguishing between different examples of the same genre. For example, "romance" and "adventure" aren't very descriptive - but a shonen romance vs a shoujo romance vs a seinen romance vs a josei romance tells me quite a bit about each show (and how they're different).
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Old 2006-09-15, 23:42   Link #1028
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I guess that was a failure to explain on my part, but best not to push the point for fear of opening a can of worms on these boards. Let's just say that there are ways of relating to the "logic" of the post-credit scene that aren't "cause-and-effect" (as in something beyond the "straight line" of "he bought a gift for Kiri, and then slept with Elis without ever so much as blushing before - WTF?!"). But, you take this to the other extreme, and you have "any ending's okay regardless of content as long as my girl wins the prize", which is never the point I try to make, so discussing it is too dangerous around here. But, as I was saying, that's why it's all about interpretation and the way you look at things. Guess that's all I should say.
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Old 2006-09-16, 00:10   Link #1029
mangatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
I guess that was a failure to explain on my part, but best not to push the point for fear of opening a can of worms on these boards. Let's just say that there are ways of relating to the "logic" of the post-credit scene that aren't "cause-and-effect" (as in something beyond the "straight line" of "he bought a gift for Kiri, and then slept with Elis without ever so much as blushing before - WTF?!"). But, you take this to the other extreme, and you have "any ending's okay regardless of content as long as my girl wins the prize", which is never the point I try to make, so discussing it is too dangerous around here. But, as I was saying, that's why it's all about interpretation and the way you look at things. Guess that's all I should say.

You know dude, you bring life into this forum I mean, you type alot lol I remember the Kotori discussion days back in the DCSS thread

Why not just say "The ending was good enough for me". There, that was short
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Old 2006-09-16, 01:13   Link #1030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangatron
You know dude, you bring life into this forum I mean, you type alot lol I remember the Kotori discussion days back in the DCSS thread

Why not just say "The ending was good enough for me". There, that was short
Hahaha... well, you know, I've never been a fan of the whole "I'm allowed to have whatever opinion I want, state it however I want, and you can't criticize it because it's an opinion!" thing. Opinions and perceptions deserve to be challenged - it's only by bouncing ideas off of other people (and having ideas bounce back to you) that you can arrive at truly profound conclusions. That's what I think discussion boards should be about: you know, discussion. Further, if you believe something, or have an opinion about something, and can't explain it to someone else, then it means you haven't really reflected on it or thought it through. So, to me, "the ending was good enough for me" is useless; it's like saying "I like the colour blue" -- so what? Is that going to lead to any serious thought or reflection? Will it challenge people's thinking at all? Or will half just say "good on you for agreeing with me!" and the other half "you suck for not agreeing with me!"?

As general rule, I've found that people here (and maybe everywhere on the Net) like to react, not to reflect. You pointed out the DCSS thread in particular, and that would be a prime example (a lot of it before the great forum wipe). I don't care if people "agree", but I feel it's a shame they won't take the time to seriously think and reflect -- yes, even about anime. And maybe some people "get that" -- most don't, though, and that's just something I've (mostly) accepted.

Anyway, not that it was truly off-topic (since it was tied into what I was saying earlier - reflect on it. ), but back to Canvas 2.
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Old 2006-09-16, 01:42   Link #1031
mangatron
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lol I was joking when I said "Why not just say "The ending was good enough for me"". You know I'm the only guy on this forum that uses 500 :HEH: emotes a day

Did you know a person's thoughts become an opinion only when those thoughts are said aloud to others. Me, I have a blog because I have opinions that others read. During Canvas 2's air dates I was practically the only one who was not irritated by Kiri's progress and outcome. That became my opinion, and only then did I voice out my opinion that I saw how different we all think.

I'll say I was the only dedicated supporter of Aisha throughout DCSS's run, and it became my opinion, and it became a discussion.

I've said it many times before. I miss the Kotori discussions back when DCSS was airing. Why? It was one of those very few times that I got to see a large amount of opinions all in one place battling it out
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Old 2006-09-16, 16:41   Link #1032
Riker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
For me that didn't happen (though I've been told a few times now that the manga does a much better job of providing hints that Hiroki does indeed have those *kind* of feelings about Elise).
I've just finished reading vol.3 and I must say I thoroughly enjoyed the manga adaptation. Of course there's some difference here and there, e.g. Yanagi was portrayed as more likable in the manga. Then again, the manga version of the Hiroki, Yanagi and Kiri reunion lacks the impact and delicious drama dished out in the anime.

Overall, the manga was a more light-hearted version of the story with plenty of comedic moments sprinkled throughout. The story has a more consistant flow than the anime (the anime would have been fine if not for the abrupt last episode). If you're looking for new mangas to purchase do consider giving this adaptation a try. The main story is only 3 volumes long (vol.4 is a collection of side stories like the beach and sleep over as well as an epilogue).

Oh, one minor gripe I have with the manga was the general lack of Hagino, Tomoko and Saya. Especially Tomoko. At least Hagino got her own chapter (her date with Hiroki) and Saya also made numourous appearances. Tomoko was reduced to just a few frames.

But the mangaka promised to fix that in vol.4, so I shall be waiting eagerly. :x


+1 pic

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Old 2006-09-24, 15:01   Link #1033
Searcher
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To mine great wonder i could dowload the canvas game
Now i wonder if some group has made a translating patch
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Old 2006-09-24, 16:34   Link #1034
DragoonKain3
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Always assume game patches does not exist. So far, there's only 3 full games that have full translation available (maybe a fourth one), and Canvas 2 isn't even on anyone's 'ongoing' or 'upcoming' list.
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Old 2006-09-25, 03:16   Link #1035
Narumi
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Maybe just not yet... >_>
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Old 2006-09-25, 04:13   Link #1036
npal
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Well, kids, it's Elis turn again today, there are some hours left to vote. For details, visit the Saimoe Tournament thread in General Anime
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Old 2006-09-25, 08:44   Link #1037
Searcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3
Always assume game patches does not exist
A man can dream, cann't he!

Oh well, time to learn japanese. Or just play the game blind or with a walkthrough.

Does someone know where i can find a walkthrough for the game
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Old 2006-09-25, 09:14   Link #1038
dojikyo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
No one else is spoiler tagging so here goes...
Hiroki's motivations aren't that hard to understand ... Elise is important to him, he doesn't want to lose that bond. In the end, that simply is more important to him and we grieve for Kiri. But the bond with Elise has been portrayed as totally platonic from Hiroki's side throughout the series so the end eyecatch becomes a "wtf?" with no lead up. A few extra minutes of scenes scattered throughout the series or even an occasional blush from Hiroki would mitigate that.
There were actual a couple of moments which I had previously posted. They gave quite a few moments. No lead up and not enough lead up are two different stories.

Btw, although real time only a second between the ending and the epilogue, it is hard to guess how much time actually passed. All of the prior images imply that some (the exact amount is unknown) has passed.

I still stand by my original assertion. They gave as many hints as they thought they could without giving away the twist. I would have far preferred that they went with Kiri + Hiroki and Hiroki becoming a teacher. Theending is a decent twist but unnecessary ending.

edit: Read a couple of pages to see what has transpired since the last time I visited this thread. I can't see too many similarities between this and Shuffle except for being adaptations of an eroge. Canvas 2 had good writing ( with pretty bad animation) with some lead up to twist that was unnecessary where as Shuffle had a crappy plot (with good animation and character designs) and the ending portrays Asa as an idiot in comparision to the playful yet mature Asa from the previous episodes.

2nd edit: Read DragonKain3's sig. I vote for Honey & Clover as best anime since winter of 2005. If referring to best debut episode, I would go with NHK. For a comedy that was one creepy episode.

Last edited by dojikyo; 2006-09-25 at 09:55.
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Old 2006-09-25, 12:56   Link #1039
Searcher
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I have to agree with dojikyo, they gave us hints about the ending.

After thinking about why they didn't give us insight into Hiroki mind, i think that is because it would spoil the story to much and they wouldn't know how to explain hiroki's behavour towards kiri.
First dreaming about being married to kiri, but doing nothing to further their relationship with kiri.

They probally thought that keeping hiroki's mind a mystery was the best thing, otherwise it would have caused to many plot problems (like shuffle!).

I am still amused about people's reactions towards the ending with elis/hiroki in bed.
In what part of the world doesn't 16 years old boys/girls have sex.
And don't give me the age difference, true love overcomes them.
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Old 2006-09-25, 15:03   Link #1040
Vexx
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You've missed my point then if you think my problem is with them being in bed... its being in bed when the main series failed to provide much in the way of clues that Hiroki thought about her that way. Please provide some examples of these hints that Hiroki thought that way about her. Otherwise I'm just hearing some rationalization here for missing relationship development.

I think Dojikyo is spot on about Shuffle! in that Canvas 2 was much better and cohesive. The writers made it clear why he did not choose Kiri in the end... but I'm just not seeing any examples where Hiroki's caring for Elise was anything more than platonic -- examples, please?
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