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Old 2006-09-25, 15:22   Link #1041
Searcher
RRR/Kotori/Tessa Servant
 
 
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I didn't mean you specificly you Vexx, just some people's reaction that they were having sex (not just only on this forum).

I would love to give you examples, but i have to go to work soon, so i don't have the time now.
Maybe Dojikyo can give you some hints, otherwise i will post mine tommorow.

Part of the problem is as you said that hiroki's relationship with elise is platonic until the end.
So most of the hints is more storywise of how it would end rather than saying, hiroki showed an interest in elise.
Although he showed them in near the end.

It's a good thing you dropped "Soul link" Vexx, as Npal said, Shuffle! is a masterpice of storytelling compared to "that"
I had to turn mine mind of and just watch it till it ended.
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Old 2006-09-25, 16:10   Link #1042
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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appreciate it, I have to admit getting a little abrasive after dealing with people defending dreck like Soul Link as "great story" --- I found Canvas 2 pretty entertaining ... just that it seemed to be missing some developmental chunks that would justify that end-credit eyecatch resolution. So i apologize if I sound crabby.

The anime writers gave us more Hagino and Tomoko story, so I'm good with that.
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Old 2006-09-25, 16:34   Link #1043
DragoonKain3
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Some of you guys might think I'm close-minded, but I'm afraid nothing anyone can say will change my thinking that there is no lead-up to a Hiroki/Elise ending. I don't think it's my bias towards Kiri (after all, I still saw Asa a mile away and I was supporting Kaede), so I'm pretty sure I wasn't blinded by my love for a particular character. A popular writer once said that the reader likes to be tricked, not conned, and I strongly feel the latter for this show.



OT, but Digikyo, my sig is just list of the anime that is the best IMO that debuted in THAT season. For example, Air debuted in Winter 2005 and I thought it beat every other anime that started in that season, H&C debuted and was the best in Spring 2005, Suzuka in Summer 2005, and so on. It is by no means a list of anime that are competing for top spot since winter 2005; sorry if it was written misleadingly. ^^;
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Old 2006-09-26, 10:07   Link #1044
rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojikyo
Btw, although real time only a second between the ending and the epilogue, it is hard to guess how much time actually passed. All of the prior images imply that some (the exact amount is unknown) has passed.
Hint: During the EP, there's a scene where Saginomiya Saya was staring at a painting of her sister (Saginomiya Ai) in her office. And she had became the superintendent of the academy. I think that Hiroki did the painting (back in episode 1, Saya did asked Hiroki to do a painting for her). So time did passed by.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
I think you're missing the complexity here, rei. Hiroki obviously considers Elise his most important person at the end but we never really get the sense that he's physically attracted to her.
Simply to say that Hiroki didn't have the desire to & not even thinking of kissing Elis.

Last edited by rei; 2006-09-26 at 10:45.
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Old 2006-09-26, 11:22   Link #1045
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rei
Hint:

Simply to say that Hiroki didn't have the desire to & not even thinking of kissing Elis.
Example? Really, I'm just asking for some references and so far no one has provided any examples of Hiroki exhibiting any physical attraction for Elise (as opposed to Kiri). I'm not opposed to either a Kiri or Elise ending, I'm simply observing I saw no onscreen implications Hiroki ever entertained physical desire for Elise. Elise, on the other hand, exhibited many such clues she enjoyed Hiroki's physical proximity.
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Old 2006-09-26, 13:53   Link #1046
DanielSong39
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After episode 21, it looked like Elis was dead in the water... still, episode 22 kept the door open, albeit a crack. The hospital bed scene provided some hints of Hiroki's feelings; the bigger concern was Kiri's insecurity and guilt.

But Episode 23 did little to help Elis' cause, which set up the shocker that was Episode 24. If we saw Kiri unravel just a bit more in that episode, it would have been a better setup for the finish. But then again, it would've lessened the impact of the final episode.

As for 24... not the greatest episode in the world; I felt the drama was overdone. I think the producers would've been better served by showing Hiroki and Elis sightseeing in Paris while holding hands, instead of the scene we did get. Gets the message across without being quite as offensive - if you ask me.
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Old 2006-09-26, 16:38   Link #1047
Vexx
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I like Daniel's suggestion for an ending eyecatch.... doesn't feel so much like shifting from 2nd gear directly to 8th gear (grind, shatter, crunch).
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Old 2006-09-26, 21:02   Link #1048
dojikyo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojikyo
Spoiler:


That being said ... I will probably prefer a different ending.
Spoiler:
For reference the blush is at 11:48 of episode 22. Probably best thing I have heard would be having an episode about the time between the end of episode of 24 and the epilogue or at the very least a single screen could be added that said someone along the lines of one month later.
edit: The original post is from the end of March.
2nd edit: Soul Link did actually have a decent premise. It was just ruined by the worst dialogue and worst direction I have seen since Ikki Tousen.

Last edited by dojikyo; 2006-09-26 at 21:20.
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Old 2006-09-26, 21:34   Link #1049
relentlessflame
 
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Well, once again, I feel like saying something to the on-going debate, but I'll refrain in favour of bringing you this important message from the Canvas 2 producers: no matter which ending you prefer, Hiroki's still one lucky guy.

Spoiler for "Proof" of the above:
If that's not the (kinda freaky) look of a very lucky guy, I don't know what is.

(As a side note, as has been the case since DVD 1, the first artcard included with each DVD is an illustration to match the contents of the included drama CD. I think you can figure out what happens... )

More art from DVD 9...
Spoiler for More DVD 9 Artcards:

And calendar cards (featuring the art from the DVD covers) to go with the calendar card holder from last month:
Spoiler for DVD 9 Calendar Cards:

And now back to your regularly-scheduled discussion.
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Old 2006-09-26, 21:53   Link #1050
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojikyo
For reference the blush is at 11:48 of episode 22. Probably best thing I have heard would be having an episode about the time between the end of episode of 24 and the epilogue or at the very least a single screen could be added that said someone along the lines of one month later.
edit: The original post is from the end of March.
2nd edit: Soul Link did actually have a decent premise. It was just ruined by the worst dialogue and worst direction I have seen since Ikki Tousen.
Thanks... I'll run through that ep (and probably the next one). I'm starting to sound like a broken record and would prefer not to.... I'd just be more satisfied with about 20 seconds of key frames added to the story.
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Old 2006-09-26, 22:03   Link #1051
evil-samurai
......
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Well, once again, I feel like saying something to the on-going debate, but I'll refrain in favour of bringing you this important message from the Canvas 2 producers: no matter which ending you prefer, Hiroki's still one lucky guy.

Spoiler for "Proof" of the above:
If that's not the (kinda freaky) look of a very lucky guy, I don't know what is.
Thats! Elise O.o! well anyway I like it and no doubt that he is one lucky guy =)

Thanks! again for the scans.
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Old 2006-09-26, 22:15   Link #1052
Riker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil-samurai
Thats! Elise O.o! well anyway I like it and no doubt that he is one lucky guy =)
I think she's the Canvas1 character that made a cameo in one of the earlier episodes.
She wanted to be a model for Hiroki but Hiroki says he doesn't draw models with no... erm... frontal assets.
That picture is a teachers' gathering or something.

Needs Saya in it. :x
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Old 2006-09-26, 23:11   Link #1053
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riker
I think she's the Canvas1 character that made a cameo in one of the earlier episodes. [...] That picture is a teachers' gathering or something.
Yup, you've got it. The blond girl is Ren Sakurazuka from Canvas 1, and the other girl (other than Kiri) is Yuu Shinomiya (also from Canvas 1). Hiroki has all the luck, even with cameo characters...
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Old 2006-09-27, 01:07   Link #1054
evil-samurai
......
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riker
I think she's the Canvas1 character that made a cameo in one of the earlier episodes.
She wanted to be a model for Hiroki but Hiroki says he doesn't draw models with no... erm... frontal assets.
That picture is a teachers' gathering or something.

Needs Saya in it. :x
oh... >.> I just thought it was Elise drawn differently... thanks for the correction.
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Old 2006-09-27, 04:04   Link #1055
rei
Nya~ I'm a good actress
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
Example? Really, I'm just asking for some references and so far no one has provided any examples of Hiroki exhibiting any physical attraction for Elise (as opposed to Kiri). I'm not opposed to either a Kiri or Elise ending, I'm simply observing I saw no onscreen implications Hiroki ever entertained physical desire for Elise. Elise, on the other hand, exhibited many such clues she enjoyed Hiroki's physical proximity.
Sorry, I guess I didn't make my post very clear there. Actually, I still didn't understand about this 'physical attraction' that you are talking about. (I have poor comprehension skill, you know ) So when you said 'physical attraction', I assumed you were talking about kissing stuff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
Thanks... I'll run through that ep (and probably the next one). I'm starting to sound like a broken record and would prefer not to.... I'd just be more satisfied with about 20 seconds of key frames added to the story.
Eh? I thought you knew about that episode already? That's why I didn't mention about the Hiroki's blushing in ep 22.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rei
Quote:
Originally Posted by rei
Kiri's omikuji - You must wait for your wish to come true
Elis' omikuji - Your wish will be granted
Quote:
Originally Posted by Searcher
Could it just be like this:

Kiri's wish: that hiroki would paint again, since they were a pair, her next wish for hiroki would be to paint again.
And he did, just after a while.

Elis wish: That hiroki would love her.

Just mine opinion
I don't think so After reading that omikuji, Kiri said, "I've...waited long enough..." It can't be that she'd waited long enough for Hiroki to paint now, can it? Because Kiri didn't know that Hiroki had stopped painting until she met him again. I think she was waiting for Hiroki to respond to her feeling. Then again...
I've changed my mind. I think Kiri's wish is to express her feeling towards Hiroki one more time. But she couldn't do it until Yanagi gave her a push at the back.

Edit: Today is Elis' birthday (27/9). HAPPY BIRTHDAY, ELIS-CHAN !

Last edited by rei; 2006-09-30 at 08:16.
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Old 2006-09-27, 05:03   Link #1056
npal
I desire Tomorrow!
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rei

Edit: Today is Elis' birthday (27/9). HAPPY BIRTHDAY, ELIS-CHAN !
Nice Too bad she lost her match the other day. Oh well, time to throw a party
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Old 2006-09-27, 10:36   Link #1057
rei
Nya~ I'm a good actress
 
 
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Well, I pretty much content that she beat Hikari (Strawberry Panic character) in that match.


Time to bring in the cake.







De~li~cious! ~♪

Housen Elis' birthday - 27th September
Kikyou Kiri's birthday - 29th July
Hagino Kana's birthday - 26th April
Misaki Sumire's birthday - 3rd November
Saginomiya Saya's birthday - 17th August
Takeuchi Mami's birthday - 24th December
Fujinami Tomoko's birthday - 10th September

Darn! I've missed Tomoko's birthday.

I wonder why Tamaru Hikari is not included in the game

EDIT: Wasn't there a drama CD for Canvas 2? Does anyone have any detail of what it's all about & does it somehow connected to the anime?

Last edited by rei; 2006-09-30 at 22:52.
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Old 2006-09-28, 19:20   Link #1058
Skyfall
Lost in my dreams...
 
 
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Ok, for some reason i have been avoiding this series but i decided to watch it yesterday and finished today, so i thought i post my thoughts on this one. And no, i did not read the whole 54 pages before posting

I have to say the ending was somewhat surprising, so i thought of what can i pull out of my behind to justify the things that happened there, so i'll give it a go :P
(note - this is written at 3am and i should be long asleep, so this post is done in a semi-asleep state of mind ,so dont blame me too much if i write too much bs here and please excuse any grammar mistakes )



Overall a very good series, although it seemed to have a few rather 'pointless' episodes at the middle. It definitely has one of the most likable male leads around - hes definitely not an ass as most of the harem leads (although one cannot call this a harem because this is a triangle). Only thing one can accuse him of is that he seems not to be attracted to girls at all for the most part :P So thats a + from me to the series - an enjoyable male lead.

Another thing i noticed - usually in a series where there is love triangle/anything involved, i find myself usually hating one of the female characters with a passion(passion might be a strong word, considering that i am considered pretty emotionless by most people, but ok). I completely hated Asa in Shuffle / Mitsuki in KGnE. Here i found myself actually liking both the females, which is another + from me - the series doesn't make me scowl when a certain character appears on screen.
(Although i admit i would take Elis over Kiri any day)

So...down to the ending - i must say that thing came somewhat unexpected watching for the first time, but certainly not unjustified. Now that i know the ending there are a lot of dots to connect that lead to this point.

The whole thing hit me basically as Hiroki's inner struggle about his life(As if we actually got to see what he thinks - that guy sure knows how to keep a blank face). It was the whole Teacher vs Painter theme, and the two girls seemed to represent each life - and he would end up with the girl depending on what route he took, with Kiri awaiting at the end of the Teacher road, and Elis at the Painter road.

Now, in all honesty i can say that him going with Elis probably is the most natural choice of his - trough the series its obvious he doesn't like to be a teacher and his true calling is a painter. The scenes where he tells himself that maybe teacher is not a bad job obviously don't reflect his true feelings.

In short - this teacher life was the 'fake' one he tried to pursue because of past happenings, and Kiri happens to be a part of that past - this whole 'fake' life made him pursue the relationship with Kiri, and he obviously isn't happy. Kiri asks him, if all they can talk about is Food/Tv/work - and it really seems that its true - its not like he has anything else in his life. He is forcing himself in the teacher job, just as he seemed to be forcing himself towards this relationship, based of some past feelings that supposedly were there.

Now, he ends up with Elis and he begins to paint again. Now, its clear that Elis is important to him - she was the one that made him break out of this life he was forcing upon himself in the end.

What caused him to change his mind? Well, i think the realization that Elis is leaving finally hit him upon seeing her crimson angel painting - i think at this moment it sank in that Elis is no longer his 'little sister' - and i think at this point he also understood how deep Elis's feelings really were towards him - i think up until now he might have thought about them as nothing too serious.

Then, upon seeing that painting, he must have realized that Elis has confronted her greatest fear just because of him, (something he probably wants to do himself) and he realizes that she is leaving for good - i think this realization never really hit him before, and i think at this point he, for the first time, must confront his feelings - Kiri (pinned together with not so pleasant memories of the past + the life he tries to force upon himself) or Elis, who has, apparently, moved past being his 'little sister' + emotions concerning her makes him feel like painting again.

And after Elis says:"can i say this one last time? Oniichan, i love you" and hangs up, Hiroki drops down on his knees and throws his phone against the floor. (This is the most emotions we get from him during the series, mind you :P) Then come the flashbacks where the the superintendent lady (forgot her name :P) says it will be lonely without Elis... flashback where Hagino says that in her novel the protagonist isn't sincere about his feelings and he ends up regretting up for his entire life (the setup of the novel was about a guy and his sister-like figure and a childhood friend - rings a bell ? )

And a flashback of Sumire - Asks him if he is truly ok with the way things are going.

Now, as for the hints leading up to this... i must agree that given how things were developed and how it was going i truly thought he would go with Kiri in the end and become a teacher, and story-wise this would probably make more sense. What the Elis ending Lacks is about one more episode to set more base for the new relationship between them.

(tho my fanboy side is definitely 100% pleased with the ending and tells my brain to STFU i still agree that the hints were too subtle and little, but also one must consider this - the writers probably wanted to pull a surprise ending, and this would be completely ruined should we have an ep showing that Hiroki actually struggles with his feelings towards Elis and that he would be attracted to her in a sexual manner - so i will sort of assume that the complete absence of Hiroki's thoughts and emotions were needed in order to achieve the surprise ending)

I think the first time he showed that he might have more than sisterly interest in Elis was in ep 22 when he blushed when she took his hand - i mean he never blushed before regardles of the fact that she crept in to his bed several times and hugged him, so i think it shows that he maybe (starts to)thinks of her more than just a sister.

The things that showed that things might work this way were mostly Kiri's emotions and expressions/reactions (tho they should have done a much better job on her expressions). I think the scene where he tells Kiri that he is painting again is when she realizes that she has lost him - she can be a part of his life as a teacher, not as a painter. Also the fact that he dumped her on X-mas eve(although this is understandable during the circumstances, it still shows his change of heart, given that just recently he told her not to worry)

(BTW was i the only one that feared the worst for Elis at one moment ? seeing her sleep with his jacket and the painting of crimson angels later really had me creaped out a bit :P And having recently rewatched KGnE certainly didn't help :P) And he also seemed kinda worried when he called Elis.

And also a few things earlier pointing that he might be uncertain about Kiri - Hagino telling about the story she's writing - about a sister-like figure and a childhood friend and a guy where the hero is not being honest about his own feelings (this was a dead-on obvious hint at least in my eyes that something is not right even without knowing the ending - and Hagino probably knows Hiroki quite well).

Then there is the scene where he stares down at Elis from a window and doesnt notice Kiri when she tries to get his attentions - obviously hes in deep thoughts about Elis.

And at one point Sumire meets Hiroki in the hallways after having heard from Elis that she is doing fine - she asks him if everything is fine and Hiroki answers that both he and Elis is fine - then she calls him a liar and says that both of them are lying and runs away.

At airport when Elis is about to leave, Hagino asks: Do you remember my novel? "At first, i couldn't realize my own feelings. But i could only think about you after a while. Iv always, always loved you." < happens right before Hiroki shows up and they hug.

So - as far as i can see things were unexpected, but certainly not pulled out of the behind as some people tend to think. Especially the words they both say while sitting in the bed - "We got them back - That color / that dream" << Which imo was one of the main points of the series - how these two characters get over their past and move forward, and it just so happens that thy are the persons the other one needs to do so.


About them being relatives - doesn't concern me one bit. Marriage between cousins is perfectly fine. Age difference is not that big - was it 4,5 years ? Hardly anything. About Elis being only 16 - who cares, its legal and perfectly normal, and she certainly seems mature enough to know what she wants, she developed the most during the series.

Morals and other bs are completely irrelevant - morals are set on ones personal opinions and feeling influenced by the environment one grew up in, and one people morales do not affect another ones in any way (at least shouldn't) Don't like it - your problem, its perfectly fine for them and your opinion is not > theirs in any way possibly imaginable. Basically as far as religion/morales/anything of that sort is concerned - they all can crash and burn and hell would freeze over sooner than i would start caring - its just your own personal believes and others are not supposed to agree with them in any way.

Its also clear he is not her official guardian - i think that was just a catchy phrase used by the authors to strengthen the impression of the brother/sister relationship. The fact that he doesnt even have to sign and doesn't know about the papers of Elis going to France means he is not her guardian.
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Old 2006-09-28, 21:12   Link #1059
cheesie
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Quote:
(God, it seems that type of girl i prefer never wins... only other thing when my girl won was Meyrin from GSD :P)
I don't think so.
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Old 2006-09-29, 00:44   Link #1060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisis
I don't think so.
Oh I think so.
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