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Old 2006-09-29, 00:46   Link #1061
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
(note - this is written at 3am and i should be long asleep and so this post is done in a semi-asleep state of mind so don't blame me too much if i write too much bs here, and please excuse any grammar mistakes )
You know, this is the second "essay" format post I've read on the forum today with some degree on trepidation, and in fact, I have to say here too that I actually agree with your analysis. Not bad for 3am writing.

Eventually I'll add thoughts of my own, but suffice it to say that I think you've covered the key symbolic points. The only point where I disagree with much of the analysis on this forum in general (and you touch on it in your own post as well) is the need for a "missing link" (beyond the symbolic significance you've already outlined) to make the closing scene less incongruous. The prevailing opinion seems to be: how can we simply accept that Hiroki has been hiding romantic feelings for Elis all this time when they provided so few hints to indicate so? Many people have blamed this on poor writing, bad series planning, a needless desire for a "twist", and so on. I can't say that I agree, but unfortunately I can't really explain why not yet either.

In any event, good job at connecting the dots.
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Old 2006-09-29, 01:53   Link #1062
Skyfall
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Well, while it can be argued wether the twist was needed or not, its obvious that the writers want to pull it of :P I think they wanted to achieve that "zomg" moment in the end (which i must say they achieved quite successfully - i certainly didn't expect Elis and Hiroki sitting in bed naked cuddling against each other).

I mean, would it come of as a surprise if they would give us insights of Hiroki's thoughts and clearly show us that hes struggling between Elis and Kiri? I'm simply wanting to believe that writers actually knew what they were doing and simply for one reason or another wanted that twist in the end without hinting on it too heavily and we got what we got - some subtle messages (Like not showing how the second confession of Kiri went - its obvious he didn't reject her, but he didn't down right accept it either - imo he somehow took the middle road out of there)

Hints like Hagino 'The Writer' writing a story which remarkably is exactly the same as the situation we have here, and she says she hasn't decided the ending yet, but does say that the male is not honest about his feelings etc. You might as well go as far and say she was actually writing the story of Elis/Kiri/Hiroki and thus her words would carry quite some weight

Like i said - i want to believe that the writers knew what they were doing and simply wanted that surprise to be there and thus they couldn't hint it more, aside from the few facts already mentioned and the fact that Hiroki and Kiri doesn't seem to be moving anywhere with their relationship. I simply donut think the writers suddenly pulled a slot machine - the hints are there and taking in to consideration that they wanted a surprise end this is probably as far as they can go.

Hiroki and Kiri didn't really seem to tick, did they?
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Old 2006-09-29, 11:11   Link #1063
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Excelent explanation Skyfall.

Only i thought that the main story wasn't about Hiroki's inner struggle.
I thought that it was about Elis, i will try to explain.

Hikori and Kiri only grew up in the ending (somewhat)
The only one who ever grew up significantly was Elis. We get to see her grow up in a mature person.
How her love for Hikori chanced from a childish obsessive love, to a grown mature love.
A "love" that even that she loved Hiroki, she could let him go to the person he loved (atleast that's what elis thought)

I also agree with you on the hints that you have given. I only thought that they weren't subtle.
Especially when Hiroki x Kiri relationship when nowhere and we didn't get to see Kiri's second confession.

Now to explain why i didn't mind seeing Hikori's and Kiri's thought in the anime.
As so many people found it a bit sudden that Hikori chose Elis.

Like I said earlier, the anime is about elis growing up and since it's only 24 eps, it's rather short for introducing Hikori's or Kiri's thought.
Seeing Hiroki struggle would be disctracting us from seeing elis growing up.

Not that i would love to hear Kiri's thought on why she was dumped in the first place.
Also why she didn't kiss Hikori when she had the chance

Now for Hikori's thought, they couldn't show him in a dispute with himself about how he feels about Elis. That would spoil to much of the show.

Also, how can the writers give a good explanation for Hikori falling in love with Elis.
Elis is 16 years old and she is his cousin (or is that niece ).
If the writers went in that direction then the arguements would put the discussions over the ending of KGNE to shame
Unfortunatly there are a lot of people who "think" that their moral is the only moral

So by not showing Hiroki's thought, they also could pull a suprise (for some people) ending.
The writers must have looked at other anime's to see how they covered the "moral" aspect up.
Take a look at Da Capo, not only is the brother in love with his sister, the sister is also in love with her brother.
Do they explain any of their thought on "how/why/where/is this right/what would our parents think" aspect.
No! To many danger of distractions of the storyline.
Just put a lot of cute girls to distract the fans that a brother and sister are in love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
On a side note - WEEEE Elis won , man this has got to be the first time 'my girl' actually wins - i rooted for Tessa in FMP/ Haruka in KGnE/ Nerine in Shuffle etc
If you are a Kotori fan, then you could be my twin

Last edited by Searcher; 2006-09-29 at 11:29.
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Old 2006-09-29, 11:45   Link #1064
Skyfall
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Yes, i agree that whole series is more about Elis than Hiroki, with 'the whole thing' i mean Hiroki's love/job choice, not the whole series:P

Quote:
Also, how can the writers give a good explanation for Hikori falling in love with Elis.
Elis is 16 years old and she is his cousin
Well, imo falling in love is nothing that needs an explanation :P I know i as hell sure don't spend my time wondering what logical points i can come up with as to why i love the girl i love - i'm just happy that i do and that she loves me back. You cant help about whom you fall in love with, and the reason can be whatever possible.

And as said before - marriage between cousins is perfectly fine in 80% of the world, so nothing much here to debate about.

Her age is fine as well, nothing wrong with the fact shes 16 and Hiroki's 20-21 or so. The fact is she was the one that fell for him first (and he didnt lead her on in any way) and obviously she trusts him (and id say this is well founded trust - so again in my view no problems here)

Its not the fact that it was the Elis x Hiroki ending that surprised me(and i assume the most of the viewers) - its the fact that the final scene jumped in to bed :P (Tho i must say the scene was beautiful). I think there wouldn't be so many OMGWTF reactions if would have been shown Elis and Hiroki sitting at the table eating or something. I think writers just wanted to make the ending clear cut to avoid any questions like - does he truly ends up with Elis or is he simply accompanying her to Paris etc - the bedtime scene rules out these kind of questions. And as sudden as it was i think some time has passed - Kiri is back in school and teaching (meaning that Christmas holidays are over already, tho i don't know if/how long they are in Japan, here its two weeks) And Tomoko is shown opening her eyes while lying in a bed(god, i thought it was a coffin at first T.T) - which is probably after her operation, so i assume that at least few weeks have passed.
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Old 2006-09-29, 12:27   Link #1065
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Quote:
Originallly Posted by Skyfall
Well, imo falling in love is nothing that needs an explaination
That's what the writers probally thought of.
And since explaining it would upset "somebody", they smartly distances themselfs.
Let the fans fight with themselfs

Strong views on religious/moral people , but i feel the same way as a atheist
If I have to respect their right to being religious, why cann't they respect mine right to being an atheist.
Instead they keep pushing their "morals/gods" on me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
And Tomoko is shown opening her eyes while lying in a bed(god, i thought it was a coffin at first T.T
You and me both , those bastards made mine heart stop twice in the end.
First on the plane and later in the credits.

For that the writers own me a after Ova, just so i can see Tomoko again.

Oh well, when i have found the canvas 2 walkthrough for the game, i can play Tomoko's route (Tomoko is in the game, right )
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2006-09-13, 02:28
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Old 2006-09-29, 13:33   Link #1066
Vexx
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Well... don't you know? Its because they're right and you're wrong
The idea of there being different "best paths" for people makes those insecure in their beliefs nuts.

But the religious angle is irrelevant to the "cousins" aspect. Cousin marriage is simply legal in most of the world (even in most of the US states), its just that some folks idiotically believe the rules in their neighborhood apply everywhere. Same for the "16" issue... even in the US, marrying at 16 is allowed in many states and age of consent is 16 in many of them. In Japan, there are a lot of rules depending on the prefecture but socially very few people blink at age 14 and over (at least for dating ... marriage is usually deferred til after schooling is done).

(it gets *really* old having to repeat this in thread after thread because some people don't bother to do their own research about the world)

I checked the references given earlier... and yes, there's a HINT that Hiroki is physically attracted to Elise in ep22 but it is so mild I'm going to continue to think the writers were too restrained. A few extra "Hiroki angry-confused-embarrassed" bits might have been helpful to foreshadow his attraction to her (since they made it completely clear she was attracted to him). It really *is* the only mild critique I have of an overall entertaining series.
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Old 2006-09-29, 13:42   Link #1067
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Searcher
Oh well, when i have found the canvas 2 walkthrough for the game, i can play Tomoko's route (Tomoko is in the game, right )
Only in the PS2 version, and the new DVD Edition of the PC Game coming out in early October.
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Old 2006-09-29, 14:12   Link #1068
Skyfall
Lost in my dreams...
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
I checked the references given earlier... and yes, there's a HINT that Hiroki is physically attracted to Elise in ep22 but it is so mild I'm going to continue to think the writers were too restrained. A few extra "Hiroki angry-confused-embarrassed" bits might have been helpful to foreshadow his attraction to her (since they made it completely clear she was attracted to him). It really *is* the only mild critique I have of an overall entertaining series.
Yes, i would have liked it as well, but as i said before - the writers obviously wanted a shock/unexpected ending - would it come as such if we would have been given actual insights of Hiroki's thoughts and shown that he is clearly struggling with his feelings towards Elis? Obviously not, so i think they kept it out for the sake of a twist in the end. Perhaps im just giving them too much credit, but i wouldn't like to think that - after all the series is quite exceptionally well done imo and is not lacking, so i doubt that these writers could leave out something as important without intention and without realizing this
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Old 2006-09-29, 16:29   Link #1069
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Ah, you beat me to it, Skyfall

That's about the same as i had in mine mind.
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2006-09-13, 02:28
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Old 2006-09-29, 16:55   Link #1070
Skyfall
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Seems like we agree on a lot of things
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Old 2006-10-01, 19:38   Link #1071
cheesie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife
Oh I think so.
Not from what new interviews/scans/pictures have shown. Sorry.

On-Topic:

Am I the only one who dislikes manga!Elis? In the anime, I rather liked her for her mild adult and elegant streak, the ability to remain mature and, um, not spaz out/get hyper like all the imoutos out there. (Wow, literature worthy!) So seeing her all ^______________________________^ is a bit baffling for me, to say the least.
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Old 2006-10-01, 19:46   Link #1072
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisis
Not from what new interviews/scans/pictures have shown. Sorry.

On-Topic:

Am I the only one who dislikes manga!Elis? In the anime, I rather liked her for her mild adult and elegant streak, the ability to remain mature and, um, not spaz out/get hyper like all the imoutos out there. (Wow, literature worthy!) So seeing her all ^______________________________^ is a bit baffling for me, to say the least.
Too bad the anime shows differently. Which is what 95% of the fans are basing it on. Next?
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Old 2006-10-01, 22:54   Link #1073
naantje
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Wow that ending was whack. He should've just nailed Kiri but okay, the Japanese love a good inceststory now and then. Yuk.
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Old 2006-10-02, 00:14   Link #1074
cheesie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife
Too bad the anime shows differently. Which is what 95% of the fans are basing it on. Next?
Fukada & Wife's interviews. :She backtracks. Athrun is now the 'father', Cagalli the 'mother, and Orb 'the baby'. I'm not making it up.

Haha, much as I'd like to get into an argument about Cagalli and Meyrin, I think we have enough of that in the past few months already. It's fine if people likes Athrun/Meyrin, but I think the debate is settled (or will be) in the final edition (and the symbolic joining of Athrun's ring and Cagalli's pendant in the second. )

On topic: Elis is such a sweetheart! *fangirls*
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Old 2006-10-02, 01:55   Link #1075
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naantje
Wow that ending was whack. He should've just nailed Kiri but okay, the Japanese love a good inceststory now and then. Yuk.
Got to love people who don't read previous posts. There is nothing yuk about it, your local traditions are not interesting to anyone in particular and people with thoughts like these are a vast minority and it is perfectly fine in almost all the world. Why does it feel that this has been said 87656 times already ?
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Old 2006-10-02, 10:46   Link #1076
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
Got to love people who dont read previous posts. There is nothing yuk about it, your local traditions are not interesting to anyone in particular and people with thoughts like these are a vast minority and it is perfectly fine in almost all the world. Why does it feel that this has been said 87656 times allready ?
Because these fundamentally erroneous things HAVE been said 87656 times but some people are only interested in their own noise rather than listening/reading to what has been said first. People are fascinated with using medical and legal words incorrectly methinks.
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Old 2006-10-02, 11:25   Link #1077
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I somehow feel that if have to defend these "people" who are saying things that have been discussed before.

Since there are now 55 pages of posts, that's a lot of pages to read them all
(although these "people" could read atleast read a few pages, it doesn't take that much time )

If it was a question that had been answered more than 20+ pages, then i wouldn't mind answering it, or telling them which page to go and read what post.

But really, asking about the "incest" question when it was just answered on the same page is somewhat stupid.
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2006-09-13, 02:28
The Searcher became a Legend!111 - (to)Arimfe

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Old 2006-10-02, 11:44   Link #1078
Skyfall
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I wouldn't mind if they would say that if the discussion about that would be buried at page 20 or so, but god damn - the thing was discussed (again) few posts above him.
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Old 2006-11-08, 09:22   Link #1079
Haru~
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reallly thanks to rei I got here.... I watched this all the way to end and enjoyed it... Favorite quote: Artist's heart are shown in his/her paintings... and to people who disagreed in some ways and in endings... Well imo it's the best ending... and I've got my reasons... Let's revive this one.
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Old 2006-11-08, 09:53   Link #1080
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rave_master16 View Post
Well imo it's the best ending... and I've got my reasons...
Let me use my telepatic abilities to take a gues: You a) liked Elis b) disliked Kirie ? Not that im complaining, i liked it as well.
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