2006-07-14, 15:11 | Link #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
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Tsundere
I just found what tsundere is and realized I love it. All of my fav chars and series have it. Anyone else? I'll list some:
Naru (Love Hina) Kirie (Girls Bravo) Shana (Shakugan no Shana) Satsuki (Ichigo 100%) Eri (SR) Suzuka kinda.. (Suzuka) I even wanna find real chicks who are tsundere, it's so appealing! Hard to get is so much better than the doting girls like Aoi (AYA).
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2006-07-14, 15:19 | Link #3 | |
Just call me Ojisan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: U.K. Hampshire
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And while you may have discovered what "Tsundere" means, I'm sure many others are still unclear, so how about telling people what it means to you (and maybe link some of the posts kj1980 has made on the topic). |
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2006-07-14, 18:59 | Link #4 |
The Commissar Vanishes
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Tsundere is basically a reinvention of the most cliched one-dimensional anime characters.
Anime-watchers are used to basically differentiating the characters in anime based on their hair color, bust size, or a prevailing personality trait. Many of the characters, a lot of the borne out the fire and brimstone of date-sim bishoujo games, are so far lacking in real character and real personality, that the only way to tell apart one girl from another is that one is petite and has pink hair and the other is tall and has blue hair (yes, Kimi ga..., I am bashing YOU!). These characters usually have a single character trait that makes them what they are. Date-sims convertions are a very good indicator. Take Love Hina. You can tell Mitsune apart because she is a drunk and flirty. Madoka is a pseudo-miko-cum-samurai. Shinobu is a timid loli. They are so one-dimentional because it makes them easier to understand. The audience these shows are aimed at is too young to be able to grasp the nuances of complex character relationships found in seinen or josei, thus the need for highly simplyfied, one-dimensional characters who exist to fulfill a single role. But, over the years, even this simplicity gets a bit tiring, thus the totally bogus invention of the 'tsundere' character. A Tsundere is a one-dimensional character multiplied by 2. She is one type of character half of the time, and another type of character the other half, which offers some novelty, but does not solve the fundamental problem that these kind of date-sim-spawned characters are absolutely devoid of life. Since the tsun-tsun and dere-dere personalities are the most prevalent and simplistic among the cliches that pester date-sim convesions, combining them into one has been a no-brainer. I know that 'tsundere' is now considered 'moe' among some fans, but don't let that simple attraction to bitchy-turned-sweet characters fool you into thinking that they in fact have multi-faceted personalities. The don't. They exhibit two personalities not because they are complex, but because that creates an illusion of complexity. |
2006-07-15, 02:00 | Link #6 | ||
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Join Date: May 2006
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Prophet, interesting analysis--tsundere works for me though, since I prefer what appears to be a more multifaceted character compared to one who is blatantly 1-D (Aoi). I've found that the tsundere chars always seem to have more personality and mystique surrounding them. You have to wonder--why do they have two sides like that? What are the keys to softening them up? Almost like finding bad guys' weak points in vid games to break through their defenses. And the turning points when the defenses falter are golden, the best moments in series for me. Still waiting on Eri... So is tsundere just a passing fad? I wasn't aware of that nor any previous fads. What were some? Serious anime analysis time! Quote:
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Last edited by Shredder; 2006-07-15 at 02:11. |
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2006-07-15, 08:09 | Link #7 | |
Beautiful fighter.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: England, UK
Age: 37
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2006-07-15, 12:17 | Link #8 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
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I checked but it was rather wordy and I couldn't make as much sense of it as tsundere, which I understood immediately. In short it seemed to be some sort of fetish or obsession with a certain type of character. This def from Ken Akamatsu is better
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Last edited by Shredder; 2006-07-15 at 12:41. |
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2006-07-15, 21:25 | Link #10 |
The Commissar Vanishes
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The games themselves might be implicitly seinen due to their 18+ age restrictions, but most of the game-to-anime conversions are positively shounen.
BTW, I also argee that a lot of shoujo is a lot more intelligent that shounen. Not all of it (after all, a lot of anime caters to the OMGTEHHOT-fangirls), but a lot. This can be easily explained by the fact that phisiologically and mentally girls mature faster than boys, thus they can digest more complex stuff at that age. |
2006-07-17, 02:04 | Link #11 | |
Weapon of Mass Discussion
Fansubber
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, USA
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http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...337#post381337 According to kj1980 those posts make a great description of moe (as well as a really good 4-koma manga).
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2006-07-17, 09:33 | Link #12 |
♪♫ Maya Iincho ♩♬
Artist
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A pretty bad tsundere is from Zero no Tsukaima. Louise is as bad as they get: abusive, loud mouth, agressive (verbally too), typical tsundere behavior. Just because the main character is pratically a slave to her command.
Welll.... enjoy now.
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2006-07-17, 09:51 | Link #13 |
Resident devil
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Philippines
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Mr Prophet has nice analysis, but gives too little credit to the term. Just like a car is more than a sum of its parts, and a relationship is more than the sum of the people involved, tsuntsun + deredere !== tsundere, but rather tsundere >= tsuntsun + deredere.
I have the ideal candidate for tsundere personality: Viscount Abriel Nei Dorusk Paryunu Lafiel |
2006-07-17, 10:36 | Link #14 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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To begin, the example MrProphet gave was Love Hina, which is NOT a dating game. While he has a point that the need to visually differentiate between characters leads to certain property-style settings, this has nothing to do with the complexity of the depicted personalities. Take KimiNozo, which he mentioned, a REAL dating game which contains several of the most complex characters I've come across. If you're seriously unable to distinguish the guilt-ridden personality of Mitsuki from the naive-gentle personality of Haruka or the aggressive-genki Akane (the only Tsundere in this game, by the way) without the help of their hair colors, please avoid talking about anime before you hurt yourself No, the complexity of characters entirely depends on the script and the quality of the anime direction. Therefore, Tsunderes aren't by definition "complex" or not. The only thing we know is that they're changing attitudes from mean-negative to sweet-positive. That alone doesn't guarantee or prevent "complexity". One of the reason why I still tend to like the tsundere template is that developments like these are usually attributed to strong-willed characters with personality. Those also tend to be the most interesting ones. Also, assuming that the change in attitude is properly developed, it requires the _ability_ to change, which doesn't sit well with one-dimensionality. Today, "tsundere" is an attribute which is terribly abused IMHO. Nearly every character which occasionally alternates between nasty-mean and sweet-endearing is slapped with it - incorrectly, in my opinion. Therefore, I'd restrict it to the _extreme_ cases, only occasional lapses in judgment and behavior shouldn't count. The development should be gradual, believable and SUSTAINED. |
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2006-07-17, 11:42 | Link #15 | |||||
The Commissar Vanishes
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In any case, I have no problem here. I understand that every hardcore fan needs a validation of his/her undying love. It's not enough to like something as a "guilty pleasure", instead one needs to confirm that one's admiration stems from the show's high artistic qualities. In other words, you can convince yourself about the "complex characters" all you want, but spare me such grief. Kimi ga... is a fairly good, enjoyable show that somewhat rises above the general fold with an unexpected plot-twist in the beginning, yet to claim that the distinct look of characters does not stem from the generalizing tradition of most date-sims and that it is not used to underscore character profiles is either a lie or ignorance. Oh, and for the record, I can distinguish between characters based on something other than their look. Yet I am somewhat older that the target audience of such shows and I don't need visual cues like A-cup, B-cup or C-cup. But to claim that the creators do not use such visual cues is nonsense. Quote:
The only thing that the creators can differentiate is the means by which those two layers are presented, i.e. "she is mean because..." and "she is sweet because..." And frankly, the overwhelming evidence only points to mediocricity of presentation. Aside from a few stars, most such 'tsundere' characters don't have an interesting story behind their idiosyncratic behaviour. Quote:
Also, for the most part the basis for the "change in attitude" is arbitrary and involved having the hots for some guy. Which is to be expected from a date-sim, but does not point to a really innovative character development. Last edited by MrProphet; 2006-07-17 at 11:53. |
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2006-07-17, 12:07 | Link #16 | |
The Commissar Vanishes
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You are correct to point out that in such cases, the tsundere personality is more than a sum of lovey-dovey and ice-queen, but then why use a term that specifically lists only two possible modes of operation? Why invent the bicycle yet again, when the human temperaments were already roughly classified since time immemorial as: 1) sanguine, 2) choleric, 3) phlegmatic, 4) melancholy. What we call a 'tsundere' is simply a mixture of a choleric and melancholy temperaments, a charismatic active character with short temper that sometimes becomes thoughful and introverted. Since most people don't fit a single temperament profile all their life and usually have a mixture of this and that, I just don't see what's so special about 'tsundere' unless we use it specifically to denote these 2-dimensional characters I've talked about previously, but never for real life phychological analysis. |
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2006-07-17, 12:17 | Link #17 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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You're using an extroverted/introverted criteria to judge Tsundere-ness, which I believe is surely wrong. I'm also pretty sure that someone like kj1980 will not agree to that definition. Instead, what "tsundere" seems to be associated with is rather harsh/cold --> gentle/warm.. and also the idea of exclusion and inclusion. Those who are excluded get the tsun treatment, while those who are included (selectively by the tsundere) get the dere treatment. |
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2006-07-17, 12:31 | Link #18 | |
The Commissar Vanishes
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Let's use examples here. Haruhi Suzumiya is usually very tsun-tsun to Kyon, and then, occasionaly, a little dere-dere. All of her dere-dere moments were initiated not by Kyon, but by the change in Haruhi's own attitude. When she herself is happy/relaxed/emotional, she becomes dere-dere. Kyon does not trigger the shift himself. Same kind of theme is seen in other tsunderekkos as well, so I think the introverted/extroverted approach is a bit more valid. |
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2006-07-17, 12:48 | Link #19 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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First, Haruhi was ONLY ever dere to Kyon in any significant sense. Second, she is dere to him only when there is a reasonable amount of privacy and the two of them are engaged in a relatively private interaction. As such, I can't see how you can say Kyon doesn't seem to influence Haruhi's dereness. Sure, I don't think Kyon "triggers" it as if he had a definite causal link like claps produce sounds. Instead, his presence potentiates the opportunity for dere-ness.. and the situation or Haruhi herself decides what sort of attitude to display towards the people around her, including Kyon. And I do think that's what important. I mean, even in Tsuyokiss, the "super" tsundere Nagomi didn't melt into pocket-sized puddings whenever the protagonist was around in a public setting... |
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2006-07-17, 12:52 | Link #20 | |
無謀
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Lafiel probably predates this whole meme as well, and she has a perfactly valid rationale for her behavior: She has to comport herself as royalty, yet she still wants to have friends/lovers without behaving inappropriately. plus she has no shortage of hubris. That makes her quite stuffy in public while oft being very lovable in private. (The crew of her ship could see right through the disguise however) |
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