AnimeSuki Forums

Vexx · 2007-06-04, 12:43

Oh yeah... I forgot about the "random arrival" box sets of other recent anime.

With fansubs, I usually already know if I'm going to buy the series as a whole or not - but market-wise it certainly makes sense.

As far as dubs go... I occasionally have to watch a series 'dubbed' depending on whom I'm watching it with so I'm always going to be crabbing for better quality english dubs. It does seem to be getting incrementally better. I could almost tolerate the english dub of AzuDa... I.M. didn't make me throw up ... PPD sort of got the flavor ... and I almost liked SHnY's english dub

More seriously, I just don't think it is too much to ask for decent acting out of voice-actors.

Robotnik · 2007-06-04, 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toua

I'm still completely baffled as to why hardcore Japanese dub fans would care for English dubs?

We all know they secretly watch dubs anyway

It's OK guys, your secret is safe with us! We won't tell ADV or Geneon.

Seriously though, I think some people have issues with *translation* rather than dub; i.e., removal of honorifics, transposing pop-culture references, etc. that also affect the subtitles in many cases.

Anime dubs are much *much* better now, getting much better treatment than, say, Godzilla movies or Voltron. And IMO the acting in most recent dubs show as much (if not more) skill and range than anyone I've watched recently in live action.

Setsuna Asuka · 2007-06-04, 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robotnik

We all know they secretly watch dubs anyway

It's OK guys, your secret is safe with us! We won't tell ADV or Geneon.

Seriously though, I think some people have issues with *translation* rather than dub; i.e., removal of honorifics, transposing pop-culture references, etc. that also affect the subtitles in many cases.

Anime dubs are much *much* better now, getting much better treatment than, say, Godzilla movies or Voltron. And IMO the acting in most recent dubs show as much (if not more) skill and range than anyone I've watched recently in live action.

Or they hate dubs in general AKA weeaboos<_<

Sorrow-K · 2007-06-04, 20:32

Dubs are slowly getting better with time, but I've always been of the opinion that in instances where there are a lot of overtly Japanese elements in an anime, English dub producers are always going to have their backs against the walls. Series where there's very few uniquely Japanese elements or that are set outside of Japanese are far easier to write a dub script for, which is why such series generally have the far better dubs. Hell, in such cases, there's really no excuse for a bad dub anyway.

That's why I think Air is going to be much tougher to dub than Kanon... although I'd be surprised if either series ends up with a top-tier dub. It's not like people are going to be buying these series for the dub anyway... these are niche-audience titles, and are mostly going to sell the greatest among current fans, rather than new fans.

Anyway, I think dub directors are almost as much to blame, if not moreso, for a bad dub as the voice actors. Obviously, a good vocal talent is always key, but at the end of the day, voice actors are just doing what they're being told. A good dub director makes or breaks a dub, IMO.

rpgman1 · 2007-06-04, 21:02

I haven't watched AIR and the remake of Kanon yet. As for me when it comes to dubs versus subs, I'm pretty neutral on that matter unless problems arose. All of the anime are produced in Japan and keep everything intact from the language to honorifics.

When I watch SHnY I was surprised that the term "moe" was kept in the dub. The American audience wanders what does "moe" mean, but it could be defined and used the wrong way in that episode (it's very rare though).

Besides, anime is made in Japan and sounds more natural to Japanese viewers. Here in the US, anime series tend to have to be Americanized or have to be explained through subtitles on the top of the screen or next to certain signs.

Writers face the greatest challenge of making the grammar and dialog sound natural. Casting and voice directors also face challenges expecting much from the VAs on how to act and sound during certain moments. This isn't just recording lines and then placing them on the episode with edits as necessary. Directors tell them how to react during those moments. English VAs here tend to have much lower status and rank compared to their Japanese counterparts.

Setsuna Asuka · 2007-06-04, 21:41

Well people said the same thing about Odin Sphere and how the dub wouldn't be as good, but the VA's perfomance surprised alot of people.

So it's not impossible to match or surpass the Japanese version.

Kaioshin Sama · 2007-06-04, 21:51

The only way there are going to be outstanding dubs is if they hire Voice Actors of Top Notch Calibre like you see in American Cartoons. Since that's pretty much out of the question regarding the fact that hiring even one top notch VA like Dan Castellaneta, Mark Hamill, Billy West, Hank Azaria or Tara Strong would be a huge financial risk, they'll probably always have to settle for the best they can put together from in house.

Setsuna Asuka · 2007-06-04, 22:01

You don't really need high profile voice actors in order to have an incredible dub, you just need to have a good ADR director that knows what he/she is doing.

Hell some pretty good dubs contained VA's that work for 4kids, so it sure as heck aren't the voices actors fault if a dub bombs.

Kaioshin Sama · 2007-06-04, 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Setsuna Asuka

You don't really need high profile voice actors in order to have an incredible dub, you just need to have a good ADR director that knows what he/she is doing.

Hell some pretty good dubs contained VA's that work for 4kids, so it sure as heck aren't the voices actors fault if a dub bombs.

Well if that's the case, hopefully ADV doesn't hire Carl Macek "The Creator of Robotech" as they called him when he did Dunbine again, because he just ripped that one up in the dub. I had been gaining a bit of respect for both ADV and him until that little fiasco. Even if I watched the subtitled version the show was dubtitled so names were different and everything was just a disaster. After that ADV is one of the companies I trust least for good ADR direction.

I would be a bit worried about Kanon and Air to be honest regarding subs and dubs from ADV. Not to worry people, but I've seen first hand how bad they can get.

Leo_Otaku · 2007-06-04, 22:50

Another huge hint is that for AIR dub they even make a speacial note to get voices for Nayuki, Ayu and Makoto. As well they explained in detail a bit about each character.

Robotnik · 2007-06-05, 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

Well if that's the case, hopefully ADV doesn't hire Carl Macek "The Creator of Robotech" as they called him when he did Dunbine again, because he just ripped that one up in the dub. I had been gaining a bit of respect for both ADV and him until that little fiasco. Even if I watched the subtitled version the show was dubtitled so names were different and everything was just a disaster. After that ADV is one of the companies I trust least for good ADR direction.

I would be a bit worried about Kanon and Air to be honest regarding subs and dubs from ADV. Not to worry people, but I've seen first hand how bad they can get.

According on ANN, Air's ADR Director is Kyle Jones and ADR Script is by Kathleen Moynihan; not sure about Moynihan, but Kyle Jones seems to be well-regarded over at the English Track subforum on AnimeOnDVD.

Carl Macek, Robotech and Dunbine are a whole other can of worms, but I'll say this. Macek gave us dramatic non-kiddie anime on American TV way way back when all we had was Voltron. How many of us can count Robotech as our first exposure to decent anime? Yes things have changed a lot in the last 20+ years and what he did to create Robotech is no longer desirable, but like it or not he helped us get to where we are today. Haven't seen firsthand how Dunbine got treated, but at least it didn't get the "Ghost Stories" treatment. And whether the rewrite was a good way to make what ADV saw as a dull, potential non-seller interesting is yet another story.

Anyway, I think ADV has also shown it can treat a niche title well; in the dub of Nanaka 6/17 they left in Nanaka's cute "hayaya?" and "hawawa?" (so I think "gao" and "uguu" and the rest will survive the dubbing) and they preserved how different characters address each other (classmates by last name, familiars by first name, childhood friend by "<>-chan"), even to preserving how one girl addresses the object of her affections by last name in public but by first name in her thoughts. "Boku" is tougher, but I think at least the scene where Yuichi has Ayu go though boku -> watashi -> ore could be handled by having her English VA deliver those lines in deliberately over the top ways, "ultra-feminine" for watashi, a fake deep "manly" voice for ore wa, etc. (I need to watch that scene again...)

Finally, considering ADV timed Air to start releases in August (summer), then one release per month through October, wouldn't it make the same kind of sense to time Kanon's release for sometime in the winter?

Sorrow-K · 2007-06-05, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robotnik

According on ANN, Air's ADR Director is Kyle Jones and ADR Script is by Kathleen Moynihan; not sure about Moynihan, but Kyle Jones seems to be well-regarded over at the English Track subforum on AnimeOnDVD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANN

Kyle JONES

Staff in:
(English version)
Air (TV) : ADR Director
Full Metal Panic! (TV) : ADR Director, Producer

That lessens my fears about the Air dub significantly. Now the only issue is whether the vocal talent will be good enough, since there's no question that the director is competent, IMO.

Princess_of_Hell · 2007-06-05, 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ice Climbers

Wonder how they are going to dub Nayuki's sleeping awesomeness; Hope the dubbing won't ruin it

And yes, uguu does NOT sound good in English

They would probably use an English word such as "darn", which would make the English dub less desirable to watch.

FatPianoBoy · 2007-06-05, 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess_of_Hell

They would probably use an English word such as "darn", which would make the English dub less desirable to watch.

'Darn' is actually a word, while 'uguu' is not. It's this fact that gets Yuuichi so fixated on it.
They may as well leave 'uguu' as it is. You can't translate it, since it isn't a word. I hope they leave it in if/when Kanon is licensed.

***CrowKenobi*** · 2007-06-06, 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

'Darn' is actually a word, while 'uguu' is not. It's this fact that gets Yuuichi so fixated on it.
They may as well leave 'uguu' as it is. You can't translate it, since it isn't a word. I hope they leave it in if/when Kanon is licensed.

I agree. As Yuuichi himself pointed out:

Besides, isn't it all in the inflection?

countdown to post #1000: 3

Ice Climbers · 2007-06-06, 00:57

uguu~ just doesnt soun d right in English but I guess there is no better way than to just keep it

If they really replace with another English word then it really ruins many funny parts in the Kanon remake

Vexx · 2007-06-06, 00:59

Aye... all the little signatures the girls make are fine... no worse than "phooey" or "bleh" ... some people just make odd noises ... "uguuu" is fine (assuming the voice actress is up to it

).

Looks like it'll be interesting to see what AIR sounds like english dubbed ... but it is inherently more difficult to translate what I'll call intrinsically japanese items like Kanon or AIR (versus an action sci-fi adventure, for example --- say Gurren Lagann).

nekokaburi · 2007-06-06, 06:17

i've seen some of kanon 06, and i've like what i've seen so far... i knew air was licenced already, but thought it was a bit odd that kanon was left out in the cold...

well if it is licenced that's great news... but do we know if it's the original or the 06 version?

fireshark · 2007-06-09, 15:46

It's not licensed.

Leo_Otaku · 2007-06-21, 00:03

Dubs are somewhat getting better. The voice actors are better a acting for teir parts, matchups are getting better, but some matchups are terrible still. Then the added or change to a script that may/ or may not be needed.

I would have to say to me a though unless something was very wrong with the Japanese one for some reason. A dub could never truly surpass the original to me. I only hear a dub after I'm done with the series or have already enjoyed it. So hearing it altered is strange sometimes.

I just enjoy the sound of Japanese it carries more emotion overall.

2007-06-04, 12:43	Link #21
Vexx Obey the Darkly Cute ... Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ... Age: 66	Oh yeah... I forgot about the "random arrival" box sets of other recent anime. With fansubs, I usually already know if I'm going to buy the series as a whole or not - but market-wise it certainly makes sense. As far as dubs go... I occasionally have to watch a series 'dubbed' depending on whom I'm watching it with so I'm always going to be crabbing for better quality english dubs. It does seem to be getting incrementally better. I could almost tolerate the english dub of AzuDa... I.M. didn't make me throw up ... PPD sort of got the flavor ... and I almost liked SHnY's english dub More seriously, I just don't think it is too much to ask for decent acting out of voice-actors. __________________ "It Really IS Rocket Science", Novel series rough drafts; vol. 1 thru vol. 3 complete Volume 4 in work, Visit the thread for short stories!

2007-06-04, 20:32	Link #24
Sorrow-K Somehow I found out Join Date: Feb 2006 Age: 40	Dubs are slowly getting better with time, but I've always been of the opinion that in instances where there are a lot of overtly Japanese elements in an anime, English dub producers are always going to have their backs against the walls. Series where there's very few uniquely Japanese elements or that are set outside of Japanese are far easier to write a dub script for, which is why such series generally have the far better dubs. Hell, in such cases, there's really no excuse for a bad dub anyway. That's why I think Air is going to be much tougher to dub than Kanon... although I'd be surprised if either series ends up with a top-tier dub. It's not like people are going to be buying these series for the dub anyway... these are niche-audience titles, and are mostly going to sell the greatest among current fans, rather than new fans. Anyway, I think dub directors are almost as much to blame, if not moreso, for a bad dub as the voice actors. Obviously, a good vocal talent is always key, but at the end of the day, voice actors are just doing what they're being told. A good dub director makes or breaks a dub, IMO. __________________ .:The Nihon Review:.:Ikoku Meiro no Croisée:.:Tamayura: Hitotose:. .:Behind The Nihon Review:.:Understanding Guilty Crown’s Failure:. .:MAL:.:Twitter:.

2007-06-04, 21:41	Link #26
Setsuna Asuka Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New Jersey<_< Age: 37	Well people said the same thing about Odin Sphere and how the dub wouldn't be as good, but the VA's perfomance surprised alot of people. So it's not impossible to match or surpass the Japanese version. __________________ Signature Removed By Administrator (NightWish) - Your signature was 187419 Bytes too big by our rules, please make it smaller.

2007-06-04, 22:01	Link #28
Setsuna Asuka Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New Jersey<_< Age: 37	You don't really need high profile voice actors in order to have an incredible dub, you just need to have a good ADR director that knows what he/she is doing. Hell some pretty good dubs contained VA's that work for 4kids, so it sure as heck aren't the voices actors fault if a dub bombs. __________________ Signature Removed By Administrator (NightWish) - Your signature was 187419 Bytes too big by our rules, please make it smaller.

2007-06-06, 00:57	Link #36
Ice Climbers Retired Graphic Designer Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Princeton University	uguu~ just doesnt soun d right in English but I guess there is no better way than to just keep it If they really replace with another English word then it really ruins many funny parts in the Kanon remake __________________

2007-06-04, 21:02	Link #25
rpgman1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Lawrenceville, GA Age: 43	I haven't watched AIR and the remake of Kanon yet. As for me when it comes to dubs versus subs, I'm pretty neutral on that matter unless problems arose. All of the anime are produced in Japan and keep everything intact from the language to honorifics. When I watch SHnY I was surprised that the term "moe" was kept in the dub. The American audience wanders what does "moe" mean, but it could be defined and used the wrong way in that episode (it's very rare though). Besides, anime is made in Japan and sounds more natural to Japanese viewers. Here in the US, anime series tend to have to be Americanized or have to be explained through subtitles on the top of the screen or next to certain signs. Writers face the greatest challenge of making the grammar and dialog sound natural. Casting and voice directors also face challenges expecting much from the VAs on how to act and sound during certain moments. This isn't just recording lines and then placing them on the episode with edits as necessary. Directors tell them how to react during those moments. English VAs here tend to have much lower status and rank compared to their Japanese counterparts.

2007-06-04, 21:51	Link #27
Kaioshin Sama Banned Join Date: May 2004 Location: Neither Here nor There Age: 39	The only way there are going to be outstanding dubs is if they hire Voice Actors of Top Notch Calibre like you see in American Cartoons. Since that's pretty much out of the question regarding the fact that hiring even one top notch VA like Dan Castellaneta, Mark Hamill, Billy West, Hank Azaria or Tara Strong would be a huge financial risk, they'll probably always have to settle for the best they can put together from in house.

2007-06-04, 22:50	Link #30
Leo_Otaku Rewrite of the Life Join Date: May 2003 Location: Canada Age: 37	Another huge hint is that for AIR dub they even make a speacial note to get voices for Nayuki, Ayu and Makoto. As well they explained in detail a bit about each character.

2007-06-06, 00:59	Link #37
Vexx Obey the Darkly Cute ... Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ... Age: 66	Aye... all the little signatures the girls make are fine... no worse than "phooey" or "bleh" ... some people just make odd noises ... "uguuu" is fine (assuming the voice actress is up to it ). Looks like it'll be interesting to see what AIR sounds like english dubbed ... but it is inherently more difficult to translate what I'll call intrinsically japanese items like Kanon or AIR (versus an action sci-fi adventure, for example --- say Gurren Lagann). __________________ "It Really IS Rocket Science", Novel series rough drafts; vol. 1 thru vol. 3 complete Volume 4 in work, Visit the thread for short stories!

2007-06-06, 06:17	Link #38
nekokaburi Member Join Date: Jan 2007	i've seen some of kanon 06, and i've like what i've seen so far... i knew air was licenced already, but thought it was a bit odd that kanon was left out in the cold... well if it is licenced that's great news... but do we know if it's the original or the 06 version?

2007-06-09, 15:46	Link #39
fireshark CRF Believer Fansubber Join Date: Jan 2007	It's not licensed.

2007-06-21, 00:03	Link #40
Leo_Otaku Rewrite of the Life Join Date: May 2003 Location: Canada Age: 37	Dubs are somewhat getting better. The voice actors are better a acting for teir parts, matchups are getting better, but some matchups are terrible still. Then the added or change to a script that may/ or may not be needed. I would have to say to me a though unless something was very wrong with the Japanese one for some reason. A dub could never truly surpass the original to me. I only hear a dub after I'm done with the series or have already enjoyed it. So hearing it altered is strange sometimes. I just enjoy the sound of Japanese it carries more emotion overall.