True Tears - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[littlekitty]

My thoughts...
True Tears has done an amazing job at holding my attention. We're on the final two episodes and I still have no idea who Shin will choose...Noe or Hiromi? I love it!
Does anyone else feel like I do?

[DragoonKain3]

About Hiromi, I actually expected her to act the way she did in the final moments of this episode. We already know she dislikes (or even despises the existence of) Noe, so her showing displeasure at Shin's actions wasn't that surprising.

Actually, that's an absolute total lie, as I thought she would go bonkers with the way Shin is acting. Firstly, I actually expected for her NOT to tell Shin that Noe was missing. I might be a Hiromi fanboy, but I didn't put it past her to be a total bitch about things. It's already shown that it's possible that her personality is very similar to Kanae's, and we all know how extreme Shin's mom can get when she gets jealous. So yeah, her being this 'nice' is a surprise to me, to say the least.

[b0nyb0y]

Originally Posted by Mentar

The thing which seems to be overlooked by several people: Not Raigomaru flew, but Jibeta. If it were simply to express the uneasiness of Shin, the book could have simply ended by letting Raigomaru fly and fall.

That Raigomaru = Shin should be uncontested. Now suddenly, Jibeta = Shin too, a "different part" of him? Seems very unconvincing to me, particularly because Jibeta was seriously hurt (if not killed) in the process. I don't see that Shin suffered any setback or tragedy which would relate to this. Noe, on the other hand, did.

Heck, Noe even spent the night with Jibeta, unsuccessfully trying to figure out Jibeta's "feelings". But Noe knows Shin's feelings very well: "The one inside Shinichiro's heart is... Yuasa Hiromi".

Now, before we go too far: Shin is so confused about his own feelings that he doesn't _consciously_ edit the picture book to reflect his situation with Hiromi and Noe. In my opinion it's rather a vehicle of the storyboard writer to mirror certain aspects. But I maintain that the parallel I see (Jibeta as Noe, the fall as an indication of major hurt, and Shin's determination to alter the story as an act symbolizing his effort to change this bitter "bad ending" for Noe) is much more convincing to me than the alternatives which have been listed.

Buuut, nobody but the storywriter knows for sure ... so let's see.

Then let me explain a bit more, so that you'll understand why I view the situation in such a way.

It's no doubt that Shin now faces with two choices. He can choose Noe or choose Hiromi. So he has two feelings competing with one another. At first his feeling for Noe seemed to have won, but yet something was sorely missing that the feeling just stopped and didn't go all the way. For the past couple of episodes, such feeling was about to reach that final step 3 times, yet it failed every single time. And ever since Hiromi's kiss, the feeling has stopped altogether, which was when his feeling for Hiromi became stronger, to the point where it took the lead.

So, in a way, both chickens represent "feelings" Shin has for the 2 girls. As Noe saw Shin hugging and fighting for Hiromi, she tried really hard to understand Shin's feelings for Hiromi. Basically, she just couldn't understand that if Shin loves Hiromi so much, why confessing to her (why having Raigomaru, when there already is Jibeta?). She also couldn't fathom why Shin doesn't go for Hiromi when he has such a strong love (why Jibeta hesitate to fly when it has a strength to do so). She knows that Shin's love is strong; that's why she said "Shin'ichiro, you can fly. You just don't know it."

In short, Noe was perfectly aware that Shin loves Hiromi. She just couldn't understand why Shin wanted to go out with her. So she spent a lot of time trying to figure it all out.

Yet after spending a lot of time inside the chicken coup, she still failed. But that's expected -- she has yet to know about the contract that Jun and Shin made. She also didn't know all the complications Shin has been through either (a worry that Hiromi being his sibling, or that Hiromi is in love with Jun). As she misses a lot of important information, it's no wonder that she can't fill in the blanks and complete the whole picture.

At any rate, even after failing to understand Shin, Noe still decided that she'll let Shin pursue his true love, and exclaimed that she no longer wants to be in this painful situation anymore. That's why she wants to (figuratively speaking) fly away from it all, and let Jibeta flaps its wings freely once again. In short, she decided that she wants a break up...which seems to be what will happen in the next episode.

[jaisrh]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

About Hiromi, I actually expected her to act the way she did in the final moments of this episode. We already know she dislikes (or even despises the existence of) Noe, so her showing displeasure at Shin's actions wasn't that surprising.

Actually, that's an absolute total lie, as I thought she would go bonkers with the way Shin is acting. Firstly, I actually expected for her NOT to tell Shin that Noe was missing. I might be a Hiromi fanboy, but I didn't put it past her to be a total bitch about things. It's already shown that it's possible that her personality is very similar to Kanae's, and we all know how extreme Shin's mom can get when she gets jealous. So yeah, her being this 'nice' is a surprise to me, to say the least.

Unfortunately a lot of people formed an unfair bad impression of Hiromi based on the first 8 episodes but a few perceptive and understanding viewers knew that was'nt her true personality. She was just under a lot of strain living with the lie that Shin's mother told her along with having to take the verbal/mental abuse, and don't forget that both her parents are dead. It's no wonder that some of the thoughts and mannerisms got imprinted from Shin's mother to Hiromi as shown during episode 8. While a bunch of people trashed Hiromi earlier in the show on these forums there were a few who 'defended' her because they knew it was just a part of the story to have her endure the trials presented by Shin's mother.

In episode 1 Shin was talking to himself saying how cheerful Hiromi used to be before she came to live at his house. We're just seeing the real Hiromi that's been there all along and it's wonderful to see. It was written this way to show the contrast between episodes 1-8 vs 9 and beyond. Hiromi is getting back to having the nice, cheerful personality she used to have before things got messed up in her life. I just hope there's no lasting effect from the pain she felt because of Shin's mother.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by littlekitty

My thoughts...
True Tears has done an amazing job at holding my attention. We're on the final two episodes and I still have no idea who Shin will choose...Noe or Hiromi? I love it!
Does anyone else feel like I do?

Same here, really like this anime and it's still unpredictable up to now...

*fingers crossed on a Hiromi x Shin ending >_<

[Mentar]

jaisrh: So basically, you're saying that Raigomaru symbolizes Shin's feelings for Noe, and Jibeta symbolizes Shin's feelings for Hiromi?

Well - I guess it's a valid interpretation, but I see a couple of problems with it:

1) When the book and story was started, it was all about Raigomaru who was trying to fly. However, back then, there never was any romantic interest between Noe and Shin to begin with. And Noe's encouraging words were most definitely NOT meant as "Come on, fall in love with me and confess!". Therefore, if you adhere to this very specific theory (Raigomaru as Shin-Noe), it must have changed in the middle.

2) If Jibeta is indeed Shin-Hiromi, why is it Noe who is trying so hard to understand her? Why is it Noe who decides to release Jibeta from the coop while at the same time planning to break away from her current hurt and pain? Why did she sleep with Jibeta to begin with?

3) Stipulating for discussion's sake that Jibeta is indeed Shin-Hiromi, it would have meant to fail. In other words, Shin should have tried hard to fly in ep11 (he didn't, he was just drifting along doing nothing), and Shin-Hiromi should have taken serious or even fatal damage (Jibeta crashed). I don't see this either, to be honest.

Anyway, next week should give us some more insight in all this. We also must be careful because on the meta-level, the Raigomaru/Jibeta story is symbolic for _us_, but it's most definitely not an immediate conscious representation of Shin - he is much too confused about his own feelings to wax poetry over it - but rather an unspecific representation of his inner feelings: Happy when he is, unsure when he is and dark-frustrated when he is.

So let's see how TT12 continues the story

[Forbin]

I don't know if it's been mentioned but what if this whole situation happened with Shin's father?
Hiromi's mom and Shin's mom both vied for Shin's Father. Shin's mom won but still harbors hatred for Hiromi's mom. So we will have a triangle happening again.
But last time Shin's Father and Hiromi's was Best Friends, so does that mean Ai wins?

[b0nyb0y]

Though I'm not sure if I will have time to address all the points you have, I'll try to address about things that I was preparing to post a couple of hours ago first. This is the response to your post on the previous page.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Now, before we go too far: Shin is so confused about his own feelings that he doesn't _consciously_ edit the picture book to reflect his situation with Hiromi and Noe. In my opinion it's rather a vehicle of the storyboard writer to mirror certain aspects.

I don't think I ever said that Shin 'consciously' edited the picture book to match his own situation. If he realizes the issue he has in the first place, then I doubt that he would spend his time drawing instead of cleaning all this mess. It's exactly because he didn't fully realize the situation that he now ended up in confusion.

The thing is, the motivation of Shin's drawings always come from the so-called "imagination from my true heart" (yes, in the subs I read, that's the name). Shin gave it a name in ep. 4 while talking Noe, as well as calling it explicitly in ep. 5 when he talked with Hiromi inside her room ("Hey, the imagination from my true heart said it was necessary"). So even though many people thought that his picture books lack directions and too easily influenced by others, I like to think that he seems to draw what's inside his heart at that very moment, even though he might not fully understand the meaning it conveys himself.

To me, it's almost like Freudian psychology, where you have to interpret patient's dreams to understand the underlying causes. In pretty much the same way, we audiences, as well as Noe, gain some insight about Shin's thoughts through the picture book.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Forbin

I don't know if it's been mentioned but what if this whole situation happened with Shin's father?
Hiromi's mom and Shin's mom both vied for Shin's Father. Shin's mom won but still harbors hatred for Hiromi's mom. So we will have a triangle happening again.
But last time Shin's Father and Hiromi's was Best Friends, so does that mean Ai wins?

Not so sure of that situation since from what i can tell Hiromi has no idea about how Ai feels/felt for Shin. Also, Ai has offically given up on Shin and has started from scratch with Nobu. At this point the only person that Hiromi needs to worry about is Noe and its obvious she does seeing how she was not going to tell Shin that Noe was missing. I dont see history repeating its self especially since Shins dad already mentioned that the whole thing was misunderstanding on his wifes part and she seems to have to terms that she was wrong about her husbands and Hiromi's mom relationship.

[hai_san]

seeing the previews there isn't any mention of shin's mother? so we won't never know why shin mother "bullied" Hiromi?... plothole...

[golthin]

Originally Posted by hai_san

seeing the previews there isn't any mention of shin's mother? so we won't never know why shin mother "bullied" Hiromi?... plothole...

There are many plot holes and miss opportunity for big drama, but of course they wouldn't serve to further the main plot so they are abandoned. things like nobody but three people knew about the deal that Jun and shin made (Jun,Shin and Hiromi). What did Hiromi's mother do that made her hate Hiromi so badly. At least they show us the reason Aiko started dating Nobuse, I would have gone crazy if they had not done that.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by hai_san

seeing the previews there isn't any mention of shin's mother? so we won't never know why shin mother "bullied" Hiromi?... plothole...

I guess you could call it a plot hole but not really. It was never directly said but it was more implied. If you put the hints together you can guess as to what Shins mom thought and why she treated Hiromi the way she did. Here are a couple of hints at least this is what i have gathered.

0.Shins mother and father and Hiromis mother and father are high school friends.
1.Both Shins mom and Hiromis mom were in love with Shins Dad.
2.Shins mom wins but is still insecure.
3.Obviously the 3 remained close given how many pictures they are all in.
4.Shins dad continues to have a good relationship with Hiromis mom which only fuels the fire because it obvious she is still in love with him.
5.Shins mom insecurity grows because of how attractive Hiromis mother is (remember Shins mom told Hiromi that shes was like mother able to get any guy she wanted) and how her husband continues to spend time with her.
6.Shin is born
7Shorty after Hiromi is born
8 Since Hiromi and Shin were close to each other in birth Shins mom uses that excuse to tell the lie.

Basically all that crap was in her head and she told Hiromi the lie about her and Shin being siblings to be mean because Hiromi represented everything she disliked about her mother. She knew they weren't related but she still thought her husband had an affair with her. These feelings only festered in her and grew which caused her husband to withdraw from her. Which is why they dont seem close when the series starts hes always at work hes never around. The past 4 episodes we have seen a hell of a lot more of him because Shins mom has accepted Hiromi which means she also acknowledges that her husband was not unfaithful to her.

So yea even though they didnt go into it you can tie things together from the dialog from all the episodes and it makes sense. Shins dad line in episode 10 to Hiromi put everything about what was going on into perspective.

[jaisrh]

Originally Posted by Mentar

jaisrh: So basically, you're saying that Raigomaru symbolizes Shin's feelings for Noe, and Jibeta symbolizes Shin's feelings for Hiromi?

Well - I guess it's a valid interpretation, but I see a couple of problems with it:

1) When the book and story was started, it was all about Raigomaru who was trying to fly. However, back then, there never was any romantic interest between Noe and Shin to begin with. And Noe's encouraging words were most definitely NOT meant as "Come on, fall in love with me and confess!". Therefore, if you adhere to this very specific theory (Raigomaru as Shin-Noe), it must have changed in the middle.

It did change once they started 'dating' after his 'confession' in episode 7. Before it would have meant just doing something grand such as dancing for Noe to see as just a friend and that would have been enough to qualify as flying for Noe. Now flying for Noe brings additional meaning because it would validate his love for her since they are supposed to be a couple. Which is why the Raigomaru in his drawings in episodes 9 and 10 hesitated to fly. All 3 times he would bring up the excuse of his stomach grumbling and say that he would fly another day. It was his feelings for Hiromi subconsciously interfering with what he had originally intended to do in episode 8 which was to have Raigomaru fly for Noe in his picture book.

2) If Jibeta is indeed Shin-Hiromi, why is it Noe who is trying so hard to understand her? Why is it Noe who decides to release Jibeta from the coop while at the same time planning to break away from her current hurt and pain? Why did she sleep with Jibeta to begin with?

Noe knows that Hiromi is the one in Shin's heart. There's a distinction between knowing something and understanding it. She does'nt understand why Shin would be in love with Hiromi yet date Noe instead. She does'nt know about any of the things that have led to this situation. The lie that Shin's mother told, which led to Hiromi to lie about liking Jun, Shin going out with Noe for Hiromi's sake because he thought that she liked Jun, the deal that Shin and Jun have. Noe thought that Shin asked her out only because he liked her but the truth is more complicated than that.

So yes, Noe knows that the one in Shin's heart is Hiromi but she still does'nt really understand Shin because she's missing a lot of important facts that would allow her to understand why things have become this way. She's tried to understand and felt pain for the past couple of episodes. At the end of episode 11 while in the chicken coop she looks at Jibeta and says "I don't understand your feelings after all" and a little later "Jibeta, I'll let you fly". So she spent the night with Jibeta because she was trying to understand him but she gave up and decided to take Jibeta out to let him fly away because she did'nt want to deal with the pain anymore and wanted to set Jibeta free.

3) Stipulating for discussion's sake that Jibeta is indeed Shin-Hiromi, it would have meant to fail. In other words, Shin should have tried hard to fly in ep11 (he didn't, he was just drifting along doing nothing), and Shin-Hiromi should have taken serious or even fatal damage (Jibeta crashed). I don't see this either, to be honest.

The 4 Jibeta scenes are merely a reflection of his state of mind and not necessarily even his conscious thoughts at times. To a large degree it is his feelings for Hiromi subconsciously exerting an influence on his drawings. In the first scene Jibeta is flapping his wings as if eager to fly even though it was raining outside, this was after receiving Hiromi's kiss. When he saw Jun at Hiromi's game he was worried about what Jun meant to Hiromi after seeing the other people gush over what Jun did. He walked outside to think, met Nobuse, looked back at the gym and then it shows the 2nd Jibeta scene. Jibeta is shown standing for a while before jumping off. It does'nt show him falling yet but doubt has already crept into Shin's mind and basically doomed Jibeta's attempt at flight to fail.

Later that night he goes to Hiromi's old room where he looks around and remembers that first time he entered her room in episode 5. He then thinks about how he has'nt actually done anything properly yet for anyone. The 3rd Jibeta scene follows once he gets to his room, where Jibeta is shown plummeting downward. The next day he sees Hiromi walking away at the park and smiles but then notices Jun also at the park, staring after Hiromi. The very next scene is the 4th Jibeta scene and shows Shin drawing a Jibeta that has already crashed into the ground. There's a correlation between how he feels about himself in regards to Hiromi and his overall situation and those picture book drawings. That first scene had him being happy after the kiss but the following 3 scenes are considered 'setbacks' and Jibeta's failed flight over the span of 3 scenes reflects his deteriorating state of mind over how things are progressing.

Now, before we go too far: Shin is so confused about his own feelings that he doesn't _consciously_ edit the picture book to reflect his situation with Hiromi and Noe. In my opinion it's rather a vehicle of the storyboard writer to mirror certain aspects.

You see, it's not actually a conscious decision. He makes a conscious decision to start drawing but it reflects his state of mind and subconscious thoughts and feelings influencing his drawings. If you look at the episode 9 and 10 Raigomaru related scenes, Shin has Raigomaru not wanting to fly but he himself did'nt know why he was doing that because it was reflecting his feelings for Hiromi subconsciously influencing the drawings instead of his conscious thoughts of Noe. But Noe in episode 9 by looking at his drawing and considering Shin's embrace of Hiromi and fight over Hiromi's reputation earlier could tell that Shin was hesitating to have Raigomaru fly in his drawings because of his feelings for Hiromi. Shin could'nt understand what Noe meant by "The place where you fly is'nt here" because he was not consciously aware that he was letting his feelings for Hiromi influence his drawings. If he was consciously aware of it then he would have understood what Noe meant. Again, every picture book scene from episodes 9 to 11 was preceded by a Hiromi-related scene that influenced his drawings.

The first two picture book scenes from the first episode are in a different class because they have persistent meaning that represent themes that dominate the whole story. This Raogomaru and Jibeta picture book is different from them in that if you look at all the chicken picture book scenes from 9 to 11 you will see matching sets of scenes where they show picture book scenes being preceded by a Hiromi-related scene. It's become more like a picture book diary of his overall state of mind and combination of both conscious thoughts and subconscious feelings. It would be easier for you to see it if you go back and watch all the picture book scenes from episodes 9 to 11 and the accompanying Hiromi-related scene preceding it.

[vio5555]

I'm going to posit one more thing since it seems as if jairsh is handling the side of the argument I'd take up.

The whole point of True Tears is the notion of who Shin will fly for, not who Noe or Hiromi will fly for or whether either of them will fly at all.

At this juncture that lends some credence to the notion of both chickens representing different parts of him that want to fly, i.e. to Noe (and the feelings associated with that) or to Hiromi (and again the feelings associated with that).

Of course, there are strong arguments for the Noe=Jibeta view, such as Noe understanding Raigomaru and Shin somewhat completely while not understanding her own feelings towards Shin and her lack of understanding of Jibeta.

Either way, I think the way the scenes have played out, one of these interpretations is most likely correct, but they both seem to be supported by different portions of the evidence, since you could also presume that Noe doesn't understand the part of Shin that's moving away from her, only that it's happened, and that the placement of the Jibeta scenes seems to better place them as indicators of his feelings.

I'll just point out that in my first large post I supported the latter view earlier in the week, but came around to the former view after going through the evidence more thoroughly. As of now, I don't think there's any possible way to completely negate either view, we simply need the final piece of the puzzle before we can do that.

[grey_moon]

I don't think the chickens do represent Noe or Shin as they are based on real chickens. Their actions representing how Shin is feeling towards certain people or situations I think is the most likely. Shin ain't the type to go about saying that Noe is Jibita, and Rahigomaru is himself, that is something that Noe would do.

I really think that the content of the story is driven by his feelings and experiences that he is experiencing at the time so there is no Jibeta = Noe and Raigo = Shin.

[jaisrh]

Originally Posted by vio5555

I'm going to posit one more thing since it seems as if jaisrh is handling the side of the argument I'd take up.

Feel free to add your part at any time. You can reply first if I haven't and I can just supplement with additional thoughts that I have if I don't see you covering what I'm thinking. For the most part though we should just wait for ep 12 since we've covered a lot.

The whole point of True Tears is the notion of who Shin will fly for, not who Noe or Hiromi will fly for or whether either of them will fly at all.

The fact that Hiromi's influence has invaded Shin's picture book of Raigomaru and Jibeta seems to be another strong indicator to support all the other evidence about who Shin will end up with. Not that we needed more evidence since it should be clear. I've been thinking that the very first picture book drawing is not only where the story starts but also where it ends, except for maybe some happy time shown of them afterwards. Every picture book scene from episodes 9-11 has been preceded by a scene that has Hiromi in it or at least has Shin thinking about Hiromi. On the surface level of things though it does seem like they want us to wonder who Shin will fly for.

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Shin ain't the type to go about saying that Noe is Jibita, and Rahigomaru is himself, that is something that Noe would do.

I agree that how Shin thinks of Raigomaru and Jibeta is different that how Noe views them, and Shin is the one doing the drawings.

[Guardian Enzo]

Most posts about chickens ever.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Most posts about chickens ever.

some serious philosophical discussions about chickens in here!

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by golthin

some serious philosophical discussions about chickens in here!

Its the start of a new psycho analysis technique, all it needs is a good name

[Mentar]

Probably my last reply to the issue before we'll have to agree to disagree and see who's right and wrong in the next 2 episodes.

Sorry, but upon rewatching the episodes one more time, while I think still you hold a valid possible interpretation, your take on the Noe-in-the-coop scene is demonstrably off. Let's go through the scene line by line:

Noe [to Jibeta]: "I don't understand your feelings after all"

In other words, what she did by staying in the coop was an attempt to gain insight into Jibeta's feelings. However, this only makes sense if she sees Jibeta as someone who can have feelings in the first place. In MY eyes, this personalizes things quite a bit.

"On this earth, there are lots of difficult and painful things. I want to fly away and escape from it all. I want to flap my wings freely."

This sequence underlines how much Noe is hurt and in pain from the Shin desaster. She wants to run away from it all, but she knows she cannot. If your theory were correct, that she cannot understand why Shin loves Hiromi, she would have to say so here in this scene, at least with a slight indication. But she doesn't. Not about Hiromi, not even about Shin. It's all about what SHE wants to do. She wants to fly. She wants to break away from the pain.

"Wishing for that would surely be much easier, Jibeta. Jibeta, I'll let you fly."

This is the punchline.

In superseded code, she sees Jibeta as herself, but unlike Noe the human who CANNOT just fly away from everything, Jibeta the chicken CAN.

Sorry, the personalization of Jibeta as Noe is explicitly spelled out here. I couldn't see how you could make it any clearer than that. Not a single Jibeta thought of hers was wasted on Hiromi or Shin, not in this scene or later in the episode, and unless my memory fails me, neither in any other episode before. This is about HER, not them. Even without Jibeta, I can't remember any scene in which Noe voices _confusion_ about Shin's feelings for Hiromi. She is certain about it, and it's painful for her, just look at her resignation in her scene:

"The one inside Shin'ichiro's heart is... Yuasa Hiromi"

Again, no confusion or resentment. Resignation. Unhappy acceptance delivered with a wistful sigh. This is not what she was agonizing over unsuccessfully in the coop. This is her sad reality which stings her, but which she has accepted as fact.

Well, let's see if next episode Noe spells it out clearly when talking to Shin. I wouldn't be surprised if she did.