Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

The cake is a lie.

That's what we have pizza for!

Yes, even in my FF he is important... Dx just.. you know... less important since the main focus is Karai, and not Railulu.

Yes, Railulu. You know what i'm implying. Of course, it all depends on his mood.. x3 rawr! Uke-seme discussion.. TRANSFORM!... or something of the similiar.

Ha. Lelouch topped the world, he shall top Rai! Now if I only had played that game...

Originally Posted by azul120

Lol. Euphie is the most adorable ambiguously siscon character ever. Too bad that relationship had to be screwed by one of the worst Diabolos Ex Machinas of all time.

Agreed.
Although... there was still Suzaku. I'm not sure even Euphie could top both of them at the same time.
Then again... why not!

[Sol Falling]

LelouchxEuphiexSuzaku threesome? Oh god the images coming to my mind are all wrong.

[Trixie]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

LelouchxEuphiexSuzaku threesome? Oh god the images coming to my mind are all wrong.

You know, I'm sure there is a fanfic out there that has just that

In regards to Lelouch being a super genius, he undoubtfully sure is, that's one of the characteristics I love about his persona. If he was to be thrown into the battlefield and without the advantage of geass, then, he may find it a little challenging? I'm sure he'll find some intelligent strategy, but let's hope his legs can keep up with it, ha-ha.

Suzaku teaching Lelouch I would love to see however

[bladeofdarkness]

since we are seeing first hand nowadays what level of pollution and damage a single volcanic eruption can result in
what with much of europe being effected by a volcano in iceland going off (iceland is rather far from continental europe)
and for the record, this is one of the SMALLER volcanos

just remember that Lelouch triggered one of the LARGER volcanos in the world in ep 23
IN japan

even putting aside the destruction of much of japan's sakuradite
just the eruption itself would result in the deaths of tens of thousends of people who lived around it (from pollution and ash) and it would take months for it to clear and for the air to be clean again all over japan
how did NO ONE call attention to this fact
how did the show not even bother to mention the devastation caused by this event
no one even so much as mentioned this beyond the last few seconds of ep 23

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

how did the show not even bother to mention the devastation caused by this event
no one even so much as mentioned this beyond the last few seconds of ep 23

What exactly does that have to do with Lelouch?
Sure, he caused the thing and killed countless people by doing so. If the staff thinks he did.

I'm getting really tired of this. Okouchi thinks Zero Requiem was awesome - end of story. I can live with the "but it's not realistic thing!" in other threads, but it is very strongly implied that in the CG universe, Lelouch did more good than harm with his plan. Blame the writing, not the character.


Oh, and yeah, LelouchxEuphiexSuzaku fics do exist. xD

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

What exactly does that have to do with Lelouch?
Sure, he caused the thing and killed countless people by doing so. If the staff thinks he did.

I'm getting really tired of this. Okouchi thinks Zero Requiem was awesome - end of story. I can live with the "but it's not realistic thing!" in other threads, but it is very strongly implied that in the CG universe, Lelouch did more good than harm with his plan. Blame the writing, not the character.


Oh, and yeah, LelouchxEuphiexSuzaku fics do exist. xD

this extends past the "unrealistic" bit
this is into full blown dog raping level
the man intentionally triggered a natural disaster of epic proportions, and yet no one even comments on it

at this point, if Okouchi think its "awesome" then its full blown Moral Dissonance

Spoiler for Moral Dissonance:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...oralDissonance

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

this extends past the "unrealistic" bit
this is into full blown dog raping level
the man intentionally triggered a natural disaster of epic proportions, and yet no one even comments on it

at this point, if Okouchi think its "awesome" then its full blown Moral Dissonance

Spoiler for Moral Dissonance:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...oralDissonance

Well, apparently, nothing much happened. Lelouch managed to geass a volcano!

Most likely, the staff didn't think much about the consequences of what he did there. Either that, or for some reason, they decided Lelouch could avoid or at least reduce these consequences, because yeah, the whole thing wasn't mentioned beyond, "the guy had one hell of a plan there!".
At the very least, judging from interviews and the portrayal of the whole thing, nothing happened that world peace couldn't make up for in the eyes of the creators.

[bladeofdarkness]

which is why the creators FAILED
they TRIED to have a "watchmen-esk" ending, but dropped the ball by forgetting the key element of it
the fact that the guy who pulled the "utopia is worth the price" masterplan is a BAD GUY, and that the plan is doomed to failure sooner then later
they completely forgot that part, and came off with a very broken aesop

"it doesn't matter how horrible you act or how many people you murder, as long as YOU think you know whats good for people more then they do"
a horrible aesop

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

which is why the creators FAILED

Not Lelouch's fault.

the fact that the guy who pulled the "utopia is worth the price" masterplan is a BAD GUY, and that the plan is doomed to failure sooner then later

Realism vs. Symbolism.
The battle starts anew!

they completely forgot that part, and came off with a very broken aesop

Wrong thread, I believe.

[Sol Falling]

I somewhat never really felt that Code Geass's writers were forcing me to believe that Lelouch did 'the right thing'. The effectiveness of the ending was, for me, grounded in the empathy I had for Lelouch's feelings, regardless of whether they were truly good. Your point, blade, about the destructiveness of the volcano only reinforces that feeling--Lelouch was never really about saving the world, but rather about destroying and recreating it. Lelouch's destructive impulses came from all the failures and tragedies he'd witnessed--rather than pick things up and try to make the best of them, Lelouch wanted to erase that painful, ugly and burdensome past completely. Lelouch's desire for tomorrow and a 'new world' stemmed from in part fundamentally the idea of giving up and abandoning the present one. This is clearly a path that might lead to more destruction than is justified or necessary. Nonetheless, I think that particular feeling of Lelouch's--of wanting to forget, of wanting to erase, of wanting to blank out everything, and just start life anew--is a very human one, and that's where the value of the ending comes from for me. The destruction of Mt. Fuji, at once Japan's cultural heritage and also a vital economic resource representative of the then-present world, is to me fairly symbolic, in addition to the resulting senseless loss of life.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I somewhat never really felt that Code Geass's writers were forcing me to believe that Lelouch did 'the right thing'. The effectiveness of the ending was, for me, grounded in the empathy I had for Lelouch's feelings, regardless of whether they were truly good. Your point, blade, about the destructiveness of the volcano only reinforces that feeling--Lelouch was never really about saving the world, but rather about destroying and recreating it. Lelouch's destructive impulses came from all the failures and tragedies he'd witnessed--rather than pick things up and try to make the best of them, Lelouch wanted to erase that painful, ugly and burdensome past completely. Lelouch's desire for tomorrow and a 'new world' was in part grounded in giving up and abandoning the present one. This is clearly a path that might lead to more destruction than is justified or necessary. Nonetheless, I think that particular feeling of Lelouch's--of wanting to forget, of wanting to erase, of wanting to just blank out everything, and just start life anew--is a very human one, and that's where the value of the ending comes from for me.

This.

Okouchi said he believes the ending to be a happy one, and that a better future awaits, but Code Geass has always been about shades of grey. No one said Lelouch was perfect - but neither was he evil incarnate.
He changed the world. Whether this justifies his actions is up to the viewers to decide. However, the staff did clearly not care too much about the realism of everything, and if the volcano was never mentioned again, I'll just suppose they forgot about it - either that, or for some reason, there weren't that many people who died because of it.

Zero Requiem was portrayed in a favourable light, but not as Ultimate Justice.

[bladeofdarkness]

except he didn't destory mount fuji as a "symbolic" act of change
he did it because it turned out that he thought way too highly of his own skills as a strategist, and ended up being proven wrong.

he didn't make it part of a plan for global change
he RESORTED to it
he resorted to triggering a natural catastrophe, to cover up his own failing as a tactician

buy my REAL problem is that no one draws any attention to it at all
they mention the loss of life that resulted from pendragon being destroyed, but no mention of what Lelouch was responsible for

[Sol Falling]

Hmm, well, I mean, you've got a point. I appreciate you bringing the tidbit about how long it would take for the pollution to clear (months), 'cause I never really would have thought about it otherwise. On the other hand, though, episode 23/24 did show Tokyo being covered in ash, so it doesn't necessarily seem to me that the creators failed to do their research and omitted it.

In terms of the deaths caused by the eruption of Mt. Fuji, I think there's one thing we're forgetting. Tokyo had already had 35 million people wiped out by the Fleija incident before Lelouch became Emperor, so there probably weren't that many left to become victims of Mt. Fuji. I'd say that the majority of the deaths caused by Lelouch's tactical inadequacy were of the soldiers on either side. Even if the pollution later spread out and afflicted most of Japan, nonetheless the number of deaths would be comparatively less than were immediately caused at the battle.

Beyond that, post the battle of Turns 23-24, there was a several month timeskip to the ending of Zero: Requiem and Lelouch's death. I think, by the time the nations got over his death and collected themselves enough to begin the reconciliation and reconstruction efforts, most of the pollution would have already cleared. So the lasting effects of Lelouch blowing up Mt. Fuji, while severe, wouldn't necessarily have to put a damper on the happy ending. Tyrant Lelouch's death marked the end of the worldwide destruction. By that moment, even if everybody had lost much, it was time to look forward and start anew.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I somewhat never really felt that Code Geass's writers were forcing me to believe that Lelouch did 'the right thing'. The effectiveness of the ending was, for me, grounded in the empathy I had for Lelouch's feelings, regardless of whether they were truly good. Your point, blade, about the destructiveness of the volcano only reinforces that feeling--Lelouch was never really about saving the world, but rather about destroying and recreating it. Lelouch's destructive impulses came from all the failures and tragedies he'd witnessed--rather than pick things up and try to make the best of them, Lelouch wanted to erase that painful, ugly and burdensome past completely. Lelouch's desire for tomorrow and a 'new world' stemmed from in part fundamentally the idea of giving up and abandoning the present one. This is clearly a path that might lead to more destruction than is justified or necessary. Nonetheless, I think that particular feeling of Lelouch's--of wanting to forget, of wanting to erase, of wanting to blank out everything, and just start life anew--is a very human one, and that's where the value of the ending comes from for me. The destruction of Mt. Fuji, at once Japan's cultural heritage and also a vital economic resource representative of the then-present world, is to me fairly symbolic, in addition to the resulting senseless loss of life.

So would that make him a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds in a sense?

[Sol Falling]

:P Though I've wasted more than a few hours on that site, I regret to say I'm not a Troper. Unfortunately, you'll have to define both 'Woobie' and what you mean specifically by 'Destroyer of Worlds' before I can try to approach that question.

[Rising Dragon]

Tropes are addicting, admittedly.

The Woobie, Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds

Basically, the Woobie is a character that you feel extremely sympathetic for when they suffer. Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds is when one such character who wants to destroy everyone/everything and gains the ability or is put into the position to do so, but we're expected to feel sympathy for the character when it occurs, while accepting that yes, s/he needs to be stopped.

[Arbitres]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

except he didn't destory mount fuji as a "symbolic" act of change
he did it because it turned out that he thought way too highly of his own skills as a strategist, and ended up being proven wrong.

he didn't make it part of a plan for global change
he RESORTED to it
he resorted to triggering a natural catastrophe, to cover up his own failing as a tactician

buy my REAL problem is that no one draws any attention to it at all
they mention the loss of life that resulted from pendragon being destroyed, but no mention of what Lelouch was responsible for

Mt. Fuji was one of the reasons why Japan produced 70% of the world's Sakuradite.

Lelouch failed, and he decided to make a global economy crisis out of it. Justifying it as 'No more advanced knightmares will be produced' doesn't really help with the fact.

He pretty much deprived the world of a precious resource, along with any hope of recovering from it.

I'm well aware of his blunder, unfortunate as it was it did prevent any further mass production of KMFs and FLEIJAs. But that doesn't really help the economy, at all. It was already strained BECAUSE of the production of KMFs and FLEIJAs.

Blowing up the world's biggest Sakuradite mining facility wasn't the ideal tactic.


I can also agree, Lelouch didn't want to make it better or save it. He wanted to plunge it into chaos and destroy it, then rebirth it in a gentler era. (Ironically, that 'gentler era' has the sturdiness of a paper towel.)

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Tropes are addicting, admittedly.

The Woobie, Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds

Basically, the Woobie is a character that you feel extremely sympathetic for when they suffer. Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds is when one such character who wants to destroy everyone/everything and gains the ability or is put into the position to do so, but we're expected to feel sympathy for the character when it occurs, while accepting that yes, s/he needs to be stopped.

Hmm, indeed an interesting trope. I wouldn't say I really felt any sympathy for Lelouch until Zero: Requiem, though. It was not Lelouch's suffering that I felt empathy for, but rather his resulting desire to erase and restart everything. Actually, it was my bitterness over Shirley's death that lead me to accept Lelouch's desire to destroy "the world, and even himself". Lelouch had lost and been betrayed by a lot of other stuff on top of that, so it just so happened that his feelings with regards to the sum of that coincided with mine towards the initial trigger.

Did Lelouch need to be stopped? :P Well, if we go by what the show says, that's probably a 'no'. So I'd say Lelouch wouldn't really fall under that trope. Indeed, 'Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds' seems to reflect a morality that one shouldn't fall into the negative impulses of despair--that, even if one is suffering, it is better to find some way to bear it and carry on. Lelouch's answer, on the other hand, seems to be about the freedom that results from letting go of those burdens of the past--of abandoning/destroying the pain of the present, so that you can look to the future without hesitation.

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Mt. Fuji was one of the reasons why Japan produced 70% of the world's Sakuradite.

Lelouch failed, and he decided to make a global economy crisis out of it. Justifying it as 'No more advanced knightmares will be produced' doesn't really help with the fact.

He pretty much deprived the world of a precious resource, along with any hope of recovering from it.

I'm well aware of his blunder, unfortunate as it was it did prevent any further mass production of KMFs and FLEIJAs. But that doesn't really help the economy, at all. It was already strained BECAUSE of the production of KMFs and FLEIJAs.

Blowing up the world's biggest Sakuradite mining facility wasn't the ideal tactic.


I can also agree, Lelouch didn't want to make it better or save it. He wanted to plunge it into chaos and destroy it, then rebirth it in a gentler era. (Ironically, that 'gentler era' has the sturdiness of a paper towel.)

lol, but you understand: indeed, even wealth and economic resources represent a burden of the past/present. If you carry those with you into a new world, you aren't really starting with a blank slate.

I think, if the 'tomorrow' Lelouch gave everyone has the sturdiness of a paper towel, that may ultimately be because Lelouch didn't destroy enough. Lelouch entrusting the lie and 'mask' of Zero to Suzaku somewhat represents him backing away from his declaration of faith in humanity: if people truly desired peace, a better tomorrow, then given a clean slate without any past burdens to influence them, they should be able to achieve it. That Lelouch felt Suzaku/Schniezel were necessary maybe represents that he wasn't truly able to give 'tomorrow' to everybody, truly eliminate all the burdens of the past. Nonetheless, once Lelouch embarked on his path of destruction the answer would never have been to destroy less: Lelouch's ultimate goal was to initiate a tragedy so terrible that nobody could bear the thought of remembering it--to instigate a tragedy so horrible that everybody would want to forget and start anew. For that sake, every further loss served its purpose.

[azul120]

Here's the thing though: technically speaking, Zero Requiem was a method to world peace by way of Suicide by Cop, given that he had passed the Despair Event Horizon at the end of R2 19. By all rights, as it has been argued several times here, it would not fly in reality, and Lelouch had other methods of achieving world peace, evidently including methods that would result in less blood, including that of his own. Hence the suggestion that he was sort of a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds.

[Sol Falling]

Haha, well, I was going by the definitions that, as a Woobie, I had to feel sympathy for Lelouch's suffering, and, as a Destroyer of Worlds variant, I should have accepted that Lelouch's despair was wrong. Since it is of course possible that other people do indeed feel this way, perhaps you are correct. My appreciation for Code Geass's ending though was in how it made me aware of one of the morally ambiguous aspects of my own humanity, so all the implications of that 'Woobie' part of the label for me don't really apply.