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Old 2010-12-17, 15:16   Link #3261
Haak
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Changing his personality is changing his backstory, in some manner. Either you change the events that result in him becoming who he is (or his reactions to them), or else you change his very conception to make him genetically different.
I think that's a very deterministic way of looking at things which I can't agree with, and I think is completely against the message Nasu tries to give out in all of his works. I think we humans are free to make decisions that does not entirely depend on how he grew up or what our genes are like. So I don't think Shirou deciding to spend more time with Sakura is neccessairly changing his backstory or genes or anything like that.

Quote:
Why not?

In HF, Shirou spends enough time with Sakura for Zouken to activate her, resulting in Zouken setting the situation up such that she'll move in with him and they'll become closer. In the other routes, he does not, and thus she is never activated, Zouken doesn't start his Xanatos Gambit, Shirou doesn't know that Shinji has a servant until later and Shinji doesn't abuse her as much (thus making Shirou think she's safer at home, rather than being around him and in danger) and, in the end, Shirou pushes Sakura away in order to prevent her from getting dragged into the war, so no relationship develops.
But why not? There HAS to be a reason why Shirou spends more time with Sakura in the beginning of HF that does not occur in the other routes. It can not be a logical sequence of events, because that would make it predetermined. That means none of the other routes could possibly happen.

Hell this is unnacceptable even to your own logic. You just said above that changing his personality changes his backstory and all that. If Shirou doesn't spend as much time at the beginning it's because he viewed the other choices higher in priority. That's a change in personality. And thus a change in his backstory.
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Old 2010-12-17, 15:44   Link #3262
DragoZERO
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I started Tsukihime and I want to know if I have to unlock the routes like in F/SN or are they all open to me?

I know this isn't the Tsukihime thread, but if I go there, I might get spoiled, so yeah.
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Old 2010-12-17, 15:49   Link #3263
Cherry_Lover
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I believe that you have to start with one of Arc and Ciel's routes, and that you have to play Hisui's route before Kohaku's, plus it's easier to unlock some routes when you've already finished others (completing Arc and Ciel's routes makes it easier to get onto the Far Side routes by giving you extra points for the characters therein, I believe). Other than that, there are theoretically no restrictions, I think.

However, I believe it's strongly suggested that you play Kohaku's route after Akiha's, due to spoilerage.

So, basically, it's not like FSN (where you're limited to playing the routes in order), but there is a "preferred" ordering and there are some restrictions.
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Old 2010-12-17, 18:09   Link #3264
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I think that's a very deterministic way of looking at things which I can't agree with, and I think is completely against the message Nasu tries to give out in all of his works. I think we humans are free to make decisions that does not entirely depend on how he grew up or what our genes are like. So I don't think Shirou deciding to spend more time with Sakura is neccessairly changing his backstory or genes or anything like that.



But why not? There HAS to be a reason why Shirou spends more time with Sakura in the beginning of HF that does not occur in the other routes. It can not be a logical sequence of events, because that would make it predetermined. That means none of the other routes could possibly happen.

Hell this is unnacceptable even to your own logic. You just said above that changing his personality changes his backstory and all that. If Shirou doesn't spend as much time at the beginning it's because he viewed the other choices higher in priority. That's a change in personality. And thus a change in his backstory.
TBF choosing to spend more time with Sakura is hardly a major decision. Neither is choosing to "stop" Saber from attacking Archer considering Shirou knew nothing about the situation. They're just whims, today I may want some coffee, tomorow orange juice. The decisions don't challenge Shirou's core belief for which he would probably only react a certain way hence why there's an equal likelihood of all routes since the events are pretty determined by Shirou's whim or mood on that specific day.
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Old 2010-12-17, 19:51   Link #3265
LostHanyou
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
I started Tsukihime and I want to know if I have to unlock the routes like in F/SN or are they all open to me?

I know this isn't the Tsukihime thread, but if I go there, I might get spoiled, so yeah.
You have to complete Arcueid end to unlock Ciel/Akiha/Hisui and you have to complete Akiha to unlock Kohaku.

I believe the recommended order is Arcueid>Ciel>Akiha>Hisui>Kohaku, however I switched Ciel and Akiha around when I went through, and given how much I enjoyed Akiha's route, it basically convinced me to read all the others. So it probably doesn't matter too much.

Keep us updated on your Tsukihime progress.
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Old 2010-12-17, 19:52   Link #3266
Cherry_Lover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I think that's a very deterministic way of looking at things which I can't agree with, and I think is completely against the message Nasu tries to give out in all of his works. I think we humans are free to make decisions that does not entirely depend on how he grew up or what our genes are like.
Yes, humans are allowed to make decisions, but prior to day one of the game, Shirou made the same decisions in all three routes.

Quote:
So I don't think Shirou deciding to spend more time with Sakura is neccessairly changing his backstory or genes or anything like that.
No, but altering his personality is.

Quote:
But why not? There HAS to be a reason why Shirou spends more time with Sakura in the beginning of HF that does not occur in the other routes. It can not be a logical sequence of events, because that would make it predetermined. That means none of the other routes could possibly happen.
Why?

The first trigger for HF is deciding to cook an extra side-dish, which has nothing whatsoever to do with Shrou caring about Sakura. The second is deciding to walk her home, which perhaps does show interest in Sakura (although, really, it's a level of concern that Shirou would have for her in any route), but you can do that without getting onto the Sakura route anyway.

Quote:
Hell this is unnacceptable even to your own logic. You just said above that changing his personality changes his backstory and all that. If Shirou doesn't spend as much time at the beginning it's because he viewed the other choices higher in priority. That's a change in personality. And thus a change in his backstory.
Or, perhaps, it's just a slight change in his thought-processes, which led to him deciding to talk to Sakura instead of doing something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
TBF choosing to spend more time with Sakura is hardly a major decision. Neither is choosing to "stop" Saber from attacking Archer considering Shirou knew nothing about the situation. They're just whims, today I may want some coffee, tomorow orange juice. The decisions don't challenge Shirou's core belief for which he would probably only react a certain way hence why there's an equal likelihood of all routes since the events are pretty determined by Shirou's whim or mood on that specific day.
Yeah, exactly.

All of those decisions are made on a whim, and to him aren't all that important. Some days he will decide to go talk to Sakura, on other days he won't bother. Over a long period of time, you can perhaps deduce from that how he truly feels for her, but a single data point is not enough.

When it comes down to it, however, he clearly cares for Sakura. He just doesn't realise how much she relies on him for happiness (knowing Shirou, if he did, he'd never leave her side). Every time he tells her to go away and do something else, he's doing it for her benefit, because he thinks that she should stop spending her time coming over his house and helping him out, and go play with her friends instead (of course, she doesn't have any, but he doesn't know that...).

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Originally Posted by LostHanyou View Post
You have to complete Arcueid end to unlock Ciel/Akiha/Hisui and you have to complete Akiha to unlock Kohaku.
Not true.

You can play Ciel's route without first finishing Arc's. I know this because I did it.
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Old 2010-12-17, 19:57   Link #3267
LostHanyou
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Not true.

You can play Ciel's route without first finishing Arc's. I know this because I did it.
Should be true then. I'm not sure if the Ciel route unlocks the other routes though?
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Old 2010-12-17, 20:50   Link #3268
Cherry_Lover
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Well, I'm not sure about that either, but I think it does.
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Old 2010-12-18, 08:45   Link #3269
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Yes, humans are allowed to make decisions, but prior to day one of the game, Shirou made the same decisions in all three routes.
Which doesn't change the fact that he can still make different choices afterwards.

Quote:
No, but altering his personality is.
His personality isn't altered though. Same for the choices he makes that lead to bad endings. He still had the same personality prior to them. Having a personality doesn't fix your decisions to one specific way.

Quote:
Why?

The first trigger for HF is deciding to cook an extra side-dish, which has nothing whatsoever to do with Shrou caring about Sakura. The second is deciding to walk her home, which perhaps does show interest in Sakura (although, really, it's a level of concern that Shirou would have for her in any route), but you can do that without getting onto the Sakura route anyway.

Or, perhaps, it's just a slight change in his thought-processes, which led to him deciding to talk to Sakura instead of doing something else.

Yeah, exactly.

All of those decisions are made on a whim, and to him aren't all that important. Some days he will decide to go talk to Sakura, on other days he won't bother. Over a long period of time, you can perhaps deduce from that how he truly feels for her, but a single data point is not enough.
Individually they may seem insignificant and the fact that you can do some Sakura choices and still get into the other routes prove that. However, in order to get into HF you need to make all of them. That's something else entirely.

You may see it as collection of random chance. I see it as something else entirely. Like I said, Shirou saw Saber beaten up by Berserker at the start of HF too but unlike Fate, did not go ape over Saber fighting afterwards. Why is that?
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Old 2010-12-18, 15:46   Link #3270
willyvereb
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I guess Shirou's feelings were stronger to Sakura then in the other routes.
Yes, Shirou was attracted to her in all routes. Same with Rin but both only develop into real love in their respective routes.
Interestingly, in both Rin and Sakura's case Shirou suddenly admits that he loves them and that he had feelings for them for a while. Even before the start of FSN. Rin is the popular school idol whom everyone admired. Shirou's initial attractions is understandable. And Sakura were close to Shirou for 2 years plus like her sister, she's beautiful. Shirou being attracted to her is understandable again.
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Old 2010-12-18, 18:14   Link #3271
DragoZERO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostHanyou View Post
You have to complete Arcueid end to unlock Ciel/Akiha/Hisui and you have to complete Akiha to unlock Kohaku.

I believe the recommended order is Arcueid>Ciel>Akiha>Hisui>Kohaku, however I switched Ciel and Akiha around when I went through, and given how much I enjoyed Akiha's route, it basically convinced me to read all the others. So it probably doesn't matter too much.

Keep us updated on your Tsukihime progress.
Sounds good. I moving along slowly. But Nasu is so many lols "...I've felt that I wanted to do so for the first time, but I also felt that I didn't want to for the first time. It's kind of like a big contradiction."

It is a lot harder than F/SN.
Spoiler for Tsukihime:
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Old 2010-12-18, 19:07   Link #3272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Sounds good. I moving along slowly. But Nasu is so many lols "...I've felt that I wanted to do so for the first time, but I also felt that I didn't want to for the first time. It's kind of like a big contradiction."

It is a lot harder than F/SN.
Spoiler for Tsukihime:
Spoiler for Oh, memories...:
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Old 2010-12-18, 20:56   Link #3273
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Spoiler for Oh, memories...:
Spoiler for Twist ending!:
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Old 2010-12-19, 14:13   Link #3274
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You can go Ciel without going Arcueid first, but it's not that recommended.

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Spoiler for Twist ending!:
Spoiler for Ugh:
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Old 2010-12-19, 14:54   Link #3275
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Spoiler for Twist ending!:
Spoiler for Surprise!:
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Old 2010-12-19, 15:33   Link #3276
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
I guess Shirou's feelings were stronger to Sakura then in the other routes.
Yes, Shirou was attracted to her in all routes. Same with Rin but both only develop into real love in their respective routes.
Interestingly, in both Rin and Sakura's case Shirou suddenly admits that he loves them and that he had feelings for them for a while. Even before the start of FSN. Rin is the popular school idol whom everyone admired. Shirou's initial attractions is understandable. And Sakura were close to Shirou for 2 years plus like her sister, she's beautiful. Shirou being attracted to her is understandable again.
I wouldn't say Shirou had feelings for either of them before the events of Fate Stay Night. He knew nothing about Rin before the Holy Grail War. He didn't even know her real personality. You can't really say that was anything but a crush based on pure physical attraction. Same with Sakura but he also had brotherly instincts which stopped him from accepting his attration. Compare that to Rin's feelings for him stemming from her seeing his indomitable determination to chase the impossible something which she could not do but was happy that a person like that existed and she never forgot him. It's the same with sakura no matter how much she wanted him to fail and no matter how much hate she had for him he would not give up and that hate changed. 4hirou's supposed feelings don't count in comparison. Had the Holy Grail War not happened he more than likely would not have made a move on either of them as he's not the type of person to act purely on physical attration hence the the huge amount of Deus sex machinema in FSN.

Even if he did he wouldn't want to risk them involved in the dangerous life he wants to pursue nor does he believe he has the right to be happy
I think Shirou at the begining of FSN is a blank page. So when he fell in love with Saber it's not that she kicked Sakura and Rin out of the running, they we're never in the running.

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Old 2010-12-19, 15:42   Link #3277
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I wouldn't say Shirou had feelings for either of them before the events of Fate Stay Night. He knew nothing about Rin before the Holy Grail War. He didn't even know her real personality. You can't really say that was anything but a crush based on pure physical attraction. Same with Sakura but he also had brotherly instincts which stopped him from accepting his attration. Compare that to Rin's feelings for him stemming from her seeing his indomitable determination to chase the impossible something which she could not do but was happy that a person like that existed and she never forgot him. It's the same with sakura no matter how much she wanted him to fail and no matter how much hate she had for him he would not give up and that hate changed. 4hirou's supposed feelings don't count in comparison. Had the Holy Grail War not happened he more than likely would not have made a
move on either of them as he's not the type of person to act purely on physical attration hence the the huge amount of Deus sex machinema in FSN even if he did he wouldn't want to risk them involved in the dangerous life he wants to pursue nor does he believe he has the right to be happy
I think Shirou at the begining of FSN is a blank page. So when he fell in love with Saber it's not that she kicked Sakura and Rin out of the running, they we're never in the running.
No, not really. Whilst you're right about Shirou's attraction to Rin, Shirou has both physical attraction and an emotional attachment to Sakura. If you look at what happens in HF, Shirou never really falls in love with Sakura, he just realises that he is already in love with her.

Whilst Shirou would never have asked Sakura out without the events of HF, that's only because he's in denial over her feelings and she will most definitely not push it, because she thinks doing so will harm him. However, the feelings are most definitely there, it's just a question of whether some event happens to make him act on them, or whether he'll always think of her as a sister.
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Old 2010-12-19, 16:51   Link #3278
Tenchi Hou Take
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No, not really. Whilst you're right about Shirou's attraction to Rin, Shirou has both physical attraction and an emotional attachment to Sakura. If you look at what happens in HF, Shirou never really falls in love with Sakura, he just realises that he is already in love with her.

Whilst Shirou would never have asked Sakura out without the events of HF, that's only because he's in denial over her feelings and she will most definitely not push it, because she thinks doing so will harm him. However, the feelings are most definitely there, it's just a question of whether some event happens to make him act on them, or whether he'll always think of her as a sister.
Saw this coming and you can't really say that that. Shirou only fell in love with her because he found out about her past. Had he not found out nothing would of happened. Your conviently forgetting Shirou's ideal which he only gave up in order to save her something he wouldn't do if he didn't really think dhe needed to be saved Shirou would never naturally do this as he subconsciously never assumes the worst proven time and time again. Shirou has only really a year before he leaves to hone his abilities he would never involve her in that because he treats her like familyM

Anyway the most important reason of all Shirou is a one woman man if he was in love with her conscious or not he would never go off with three different women depending on the situation and completely ignore his "feelings" for her without, not even single thought about it. I mean come on what do take him for? If his heart was so fickle why didn't he fall in love with Rin or Sakura when he wasn't aware he was in love with Saber or why is it implied that he never fell in love with anyone else after she left.
Saying that he was always in love with her is basically the same as saying he didn't care much for her and has a fickle heart that falls in love random women certain situations. I mean if your right what exactly stops him from falling in love with another girl when sakura dies or even while she is alive something totally out of character for Shirou. Subconscious or not he generally goes after the women he has feelings for/loved. Why not Sakura?

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2010-12-19 at 18:08.
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Old 2010-12-20, 07:06   Link #3279
Arbitres
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Just so you know, that is pretty biased. Saying Shirou has always loved Sakura. In all of the routes, his feelings and experiences are slightly altered to point him in the route direction. In which case, Heaven's Feel is about Sakura; no mistake, he loved her as family. There is a fine line between family intimacy. (Example: Having a little sister to care for) and relationship intimacy (What he developed over time).

Saying what is canon is like saying "I'm right, your wrong. End of fucking story."... Which by the way, is pretty arrogant.

Shirou's experiences and possible choices are what define him in all routes.
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Old 2010-12-20, 07:25   Link #3280
Cherry_Lover
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Look, I'm not the one who came up with the story, Nasu did. Further, you have no evidence whatsoever for your assertion that Shirou's "feelings and experiences" were slightly altered depending on route (and, indeed, it totally contradicts the way the story is written, since it's possible to get most of the way onto the Sakura rotue and then stop at the end, and in the case of the Rin route, the choice that gets you onto it has notihng whatsoever to do with liking Rin (since you don't know who it is at that point)).

If you look at HF, it's clear that the point behind it is not that Shirou is developing feelings for Sakura, but that he is discovering them. Of course, you are right that having feelings for someone is not the same as actual romantic intimacy (which does indeed "develop" over the course of HF), but nevertheless the basic feelings that he has for Sakura (both the familial ones and the more erotic ones) are present at the start.

Now, you can argue that he has a sexual attraction to Rin prior to the game, too, but there's no connection between them beyond that. With Sakura, it's clear from how their relationship is portrayed in HF that the basis for a Shirou x Sakura relationship is already fully-formed, it's just that neither of them really have the will to pursue those (Shirou is desperately trying to repress any sexual attraction he has to her because he thinks it's "wrong", and Sakura is not pursuing him because she thinks she's "not worthy" and because she knows that doing so will endanger him). Of course, post-UBW (and possibly post-Fate) any residual feelings he may have for Sakura will be buried beneath the feelings he has for the heroine, but that doesn't change the fact that they were there (and, really, if Shirou getting with Rin post-HF is plausible, then Shirou getting with Sakura post-UBW certainly is).
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