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Old 2009-03-26, 13:05   Link #1181
sento
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Join Date: Mar 2009
I still not get you. HF is clearly the route more Nasu-like in the game, when he puts all his typical Kinoko-Philosophy, linking thematically with Fate/hollow ataraxia with the "worth/meaning" of a life, impossible dreams, eternal life (link with Tsukihime), evolution of the species (link with Notes), importance of your everyday feelings (linking with Kara no Kyoukai - Spiral Paradox)... and a long etc... filled with a lot of references as well.

You can say that it's not of your taste, or that as the game says, there are more answers, but you can't say that it's "so unlike Nasu's" because that's not really true.

Well, it's your opinion, ok then. I only stated what the game says.
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Old 2009-03-26, 17:30   Link #1182
Tyabann
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
TO ME, F/SN ended with the UBW ending
And there's your entire problem. You're trying to justify this belief, and I really don't think it's working.
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Old 2009-03-27, 00:05   Link #1183
ShinMasaki
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Either way, whether I'm trying to justify the belief or not, you cannot convince me otherwise, as it is my belief. I am not saying that you guys are wrong in your belief that HF is the ending to F/SN, I'm just giving all these points as to why you wont be able to convince me.

We've already covered that the game offers a question and leaves an answer. Whether you see the answer as being final or not is up to you to decide, that is most likely why it was worded as such.

This topic we are on is simply an argument of opinions, opinions that parties on both sides feel strongly about. We aren't going to come to a resolution to this anytime soon, or ever, unless Nasu himself states otherwise one way or another.

You can say that the game states HF as the True ending to Fate, but it also states that it is merely one answer to the question about how Shirou is to live his life following the info provided in the previous routes.

Nasulosophy is present in all of his writings regardless of ending. I will agree that HF connects to a lot of his other works, but it is not limited to just HF. UBW you have conflict with your self (Tsuki), ideals vs reality (KnK-A Study in Murder Part 2), belief vs conviction (Notes), and others as well. Of course, you can make the same argument about the Fate storyline with different points of coinciding Nasulosophy. If anything though, inner struggle is perhaps the most universal point of Nasulosophy that I see in his writings. Shiki/Shiki (Tsuki/KnK), Emiya/Archer (F/SN), The Angel/Type-Venus (Notes), Shiki[dream]/Shiki[reality] (Kagetsu Tohya).
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Old 2009-03-27, 05:07   Link #1184
Keroko
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.... Isn't the entire point of a multi-route game that you imagine the end you like the most to be the real end?
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Old 2009-03-27, 06:51   Link #1185
mAc Chaos
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Is HF the one that ends with Kotomine and Shirou beating the stuffings out of each other fist-to-fist? That was pretty cool.
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Old 2009-03-27, 13:14   Link #1186
ShinMasaki
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That is the ending you are thinking of. Kotomine is an awesome character.
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Old 2009-03-27, 14:00   Link #1187
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
You can say that the game states HF as the True ending to Fate
But... we're not just saying it, it DOES say that... oh, whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
.... Isn't the entire point of a multi-route game that you imagine the end you like the most to be the real end?
F/SN is like a linear VN disguised as a route-based VN.

Since you have to play the routes in order, you get this sense of linearity and continuity even though there isn't any.


Probably the best explanation of the plot I've ever heard is the following:

F/SN as a whole represents Shirou's journey into adulthood. In Fate, he is a child, clinging to his ideal no matter what. In UBW, he is like a teenager, trying to have both his ideal and reality. And finally, in HF, he becomes an adult, forsaking his ideal for what really matters in reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
That is the ending you are thinking of. Kotomine is an awesome character.
Finally, something we agree on.

ufotable needs to animate Fate/Zero. I really want to see more of him.
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Old 2009-03-27, 14:05   Link #1188
eiyuu99
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A person can fervently believe in a lie, regardless how illogical it may be.
Please do not assume which route is canon, unless you can back it up with concrete evidence.

Existence of The Second Magic already suggests Possibilities.
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Old 2009-03-27, 14:35   Link #1189
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eiyuu99 View Post
Please do not assume which route is canon, unless you can back it up with concrete evidence.
All are "canon", but the HF ending is the "True Ending", according to the Tiger Dojos.
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Old 2009-03-27, 16:40   Link #1190
mAc Chaos
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Yeah, Kotomine is awesome... my friend said he's a BORING character. I don't know how you can think that.
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Old 2009-03-27, 17:38   Link #1191
ShinMasaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
But... we're not just saying it, it DOES say that... oh, whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
but it also states that it is merely one answer to the question about how Shirou is to live his life following the info provided in the previous routes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
ufotable needs to animate Fate/Zero. I really want to see more of him.
I want to see Saber on her motorcycle.
Spoiler for saber's motorcycle:


That is the best image of that I can find, I'll upload a better image later from my Type-Moon Ace issue.
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Old 2009-03-27, 18:34   Link #1192
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
I want to see Saber on her motorcycle.
I had that image as my wallpaper for a while.

So badass.

Supposedly Berserker fights Gilgamesh while in an F-16 or something too.
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Old 2009-03-28, 22:35   Link #1193
Deadwings
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Hi! I have a doubt gentle players of the F/SN game (I can't believe I'm only coming to this forum just to ask questions... Damn type-moon world... so complicated...) And it's a bit related to the different endings. My questions is: what happens to Sakura during the Fate and UBW routes? I mean, HF explains everything about her but after playing the last route I realized that the first two seem to completely ignore her. Ok, rider is killed, but I still don't get why should Zouken and true assasin remain quite. Is there anything I missed that explained why they didn't do anything?
And considering Sakura's nature, I find it hard to believe that she stayed quite during the war...
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Old 2009-03-28, 23:43   Link #1194
Archer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
Hi! I have a doubt gentle players of the F/SN game (I can't believe I'm only coming to this forum just to ask questions... Damn type-moon world... so complicated...) And it's a bit related to the different endings. My questions is: what happens to Sakura during the Fate and UBW routes? I mean, HF explains everything about her but after playing the last route I realized that the first two seem to completely ignore her. Ok, rider is killed, but I still don't get why should Zouken and true assasin remain quite. Is there anything I missed that explained why they didn't do anything?
And considering Sakura's nature, I find it hard to believe that she stayed quite during the war...
Zouken only carries out his plan when he discovers he could use Shirou (HF). All of the other routes he waits for the next war. Unfortunately for him, the Greater Holy Grail is dismantled shortly afterward the ends of the first two routes.

Not that it matters in UBW, since the first thing Shinji does after acquiring Gilgamesh to kill Zouken.
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Old 2009-03-29, 03:38   Link #1195
ShinMasaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
Hi! I have a doubt gentle players of the F/SN game (I can't believe I'm only coming to this forum just to ask questions... Damn type-moon world... so complicated...) And it's a bit related to the different endings. My questions is: what happens to Sakura during the Fate and UBW routes? I mean, HF explains everything about her but after playing the last route I realized that the first two seem to completely ignore her. Ok, rider is killed, but I still don't get why should Zouken and true assasin remain quite. Is there anything I missed that explained why they didn't do anything?
And considering Sakura's nature, I find it hard to believe that she stayed quite during the war...
In addition, True Assassin isn't present at all in the Fate or UBW routes. If you remember from HF, what was used to summon True Assassin was the role of the original Assassin. Since the original Assassin is still present throughout nearly the entirety (till he gets killed) in Fate and UBW, it's apparent that the catalyst is never initiated and True Assassin never joins.

Zouken uses True Assassin as his own Servant during the war, but since he chooses to stay out of it during the Fate and UBW routes, there is no reason for him to need a Servant.

Oh, and in addition...
Spoiler for Saber+ motorcycle = win:

...got that better image that I was saying I'd do.

Last edited by ShinMasaki; 2009-03-29 at 03:52.
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Old 2009-03-29, 06:16   Link #1196
sento
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
Hi! I have a doubt gentle players of the F/SN game (I can't believe I'm only coming to this forum just to ask questions... Damn type-moon world... so complicated...) And it's a bit related to the different endings. My questions is: what happens to Sakura during the Fate and UBW routes? I mean, HF explains everything about her but after playing the last route I realized that the first two seem to completely ignore her. Ok, rider is killed, but I still don't get why should Zouken and true assasin remain quite. Is there anything I missed that explained why they didn't do anything?
And considering Sakura's nature, I find it hard to believe that she stayed quite during the war...
The whole thing with Zouken is that he only wants to enter the war if he can use "his trump card". Sakura is described as a impenetrable will fortress by him, as she didn't want to enter in the war and fight Shirou and Rin. But then, in HF he found a crack in that fortress, her feelings.
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Old 2009-03-29, 13:44   Link #1197
Deadwings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archer View Post
Not that it matters in UBW, since the first thing Shinji does after acquiring Gilgamesh to kill Zouken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
In addition, True Assassin isn't present at all in the Fate or UBW routes. If you remember from HF, what was used to summon True Assassin was the role of the original Assassin. Since the original Assassin is still present throughout nearly the entirety (till he gets killed) in Fate and UBW, it's apparent that the catalyst is never initiated and True Assassin never joins.

Zouken uses True Assassin as his own Servant during the war, but since he chooses to stay out of it during the Fate and UBW routes, there is no reason for him to need a Servant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sento View Post
The whole thing with Zouken is that he only wants to enter the war if he can use "his trump card". Sakura is described as a impenetrable will fortress by him, as she didn't want to enter in the war and fight Shirou and Rin. But then, in HF he found a crack in that fortress, her feelings.
Thanks for the answers! Now I can rest in peace (?).
BTW, my favourite route is UBW, I can't get enough of servants battles! I'm now rewatching tha anime and it feels so poor compared to the sensation of the VN But I must say that I liked HF too. Contrary to Fate and UBW, HF was for more like a heavy drama and not the epic action/love story that were fate and UBW imho. So, evaluating it from a drama point of wiev, I think it was pretty decent, mostly because there's no action in this route, every time a servant readied himself to battle the shadow appeared and swallowed everything. Man I really hate that shadow, so many potential fights ruined by it
The last thing. Rin FTW!
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Old 2009-03-29, 18:20   Link #1198
sento
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
I think it was pretty decent, mostly because there's no action in this route, every time a servant readied himself to battle the shadow appeared and swallowed everything. Man I really hate that shadow, so many potential fights ruined by it
The last thing. Rin FTW!
Use the Realta Nua CGs patch and you will solve that in some way.
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Old 2009-03-29, 21:39   Link #1199
ShinMasaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
Rin FTW!
Good answer. The characters in the Nasuverse with the Rin-type character are by far my favorites...Azaka Kokutou, Rin Tohsaka, Akiha Tohno. But then again, I can't possibly forsake Ciel.
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Old 2009-03-29, 22:03   Link #1200
aldw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
All are "canon", but the HF ending is the "True Ending", according to the Tiger Dojos.
With either F/SN or Tsukihime there's no purely singular 'True Ending', otherwise by that logic Kohaku's route would be the 'true ending' there (and Kohaku is one of Nasu's personal favorites). Nasu himself only spoke about probabilities when asked about all this, and certainly not with the absolute declaratives like George Lucas concerning Star Wars. The hardcore experts on Beast's Lair or Mirror Moon can confirm those points.

F/HA doesn't contradict F/SN if one looks at certain elements of the plot, particularly the space/time accident Rin caused during an experiment at Illya's castle, so a convergence of sorts can be considered from that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
Good answer. The characters in the Nasuverse with the Rin-type character are by far my favorites...Azaka Kokutou, Rin Tohsaka, Akiha Tohno. But then again, I can't possibly forsake Ciel.
Yep, yep, Azaka and especially Rin are great in my book, Akiha's just a bit too tsun-tsun for my comfort.
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