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Old 2012-01-29, 05:52   Link #681
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
In fact, your actually not claiming no dragons exists but no "X" exists. You want us to use the assumption with the first claim that dragons existing is an absurdity because of what we already know about that claim but the variable you employ is not yet proven to be an absurdity. The evidence is in the show, enlighten me. Less semantics and more substance.
Perhaps, he wants action... like... right now. Immediately. With big explosions and drama...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo
I would like to see some evidence that Marika is worried about the seriousness of the decision she's about to make.
Thing is... we know Marika's decision. She's gonna be a pirate. If anyone needs that in spoiler tags, then you shouldn't watch the opening to the series. Hell, block out the series title!

On top of that, she's slowly being "pushed" into the role of captain. Whether she's "worried" about it or not, that's irrelevant. As it shows, she'll naturally become a captain on her own right and talent. For now, we're just seeing bits and pieces of that. And it's not gonna make sense for all of that talent to just magically come out in one event. With each event, it shows how she's actually enjoying her role - even before a decision is made.
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Old 2012-01-29, 06:02   Link #682
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Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Perhaps, he wants action... like... right now. Immediately. With big explosions and drama...
I'm certain he does. I believe we both agree that the show has no big explosion or drama yet but that's different that claim the show has no character development or excitement. Character development in a show isn't limited to dramatic moments nor excitement limited to having big explosions. You can achieve both with other methods.
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Old 2012-01-29, 06:21   Link #683
totoum
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Well before Enzo brought it up I'd never even wondered if this was an "emotional flatline" and now after reading that post I've concluded that even if it is an emotional flatline I don't give a damn


Quote:
I would like to see some evidence that Marika is worried about the seriousness of the decision she's about to make (...)I'd like to see someone on the show act scared or angry about something, sometime (...)I'd like to see some specific evidence that the characters on the show are reflecting on the meanings or implications of events and decisions, rather than the mechanics of them.

The Motto of this episode was "breakfast beats worrying" and characters try to apply this all over the show.Notably Marika has aknowledged in episode 3 that she's scared but instead of letting her fears get to her she uses them as motivation.

Now I'm not saying nothing will get to them,the episode preview seems to show a bit of tension.But it sure is going to take a whole lot more than a stuck mast to worry them.
And even if there might be some tension in the heat of battle but I don't expect any " reflecting on the meanings or implications of events and decisions".

I definatly believe there will be an evolution in the Chiaki/Marika relationship but I'm not certain it'll be an emotional journey as much as just bonding over kicking ass around the galaxy.
I'm not certain any of the supporting cast will go though a major change.

I do feel the show tries with more or less success to justify the absence of the following:


Quote:
I would like to see some concern on the part of Kane or any of the girls that they might be in serious danger on their current mission.
Why should Kane be concerned?For all we know the attack could be set up by him to test Marika,even if it isn't I'm sure he's got the pirate crew not far away ready to step in just in case things go wrong,and he trust the crew enough not to be concerned.
The girls though,I can understand more,the anime tries to justify this by saying all these girls are all "special" in some way.
I'll take it,I preffer seeing Highschool girls acting like veterans than the inverse.


Quote:
I would like to see some variation in the reaction of the classmates to the news that Marika is not just their friend, but also potentially a pirate captain.
You've got the daughter of a famous tycoon,a convicted cracker and apparently more special cases in the club,pirates have been largly forgotten in that part of the galaxy.So their reaction is pretty much "cool story bro"

Quote:
I would like to see some evolution in the relationship between Marika and Chiaki. I see no evidence of any growth there at all, since all we really know about Chiaki is that she likes parfaits.
There I've got nothing

Just that at least Marika has tried breaking the ice and failed notably by calling her "Chiaki-chan".

So there you have it,I can understand why you'd think people not displaying much emotion isn't that entertaining,afterall in apollo 13 Ron Howard turned this into this . NASA astronauts are trained to stay calm but he thought agitation would make a more entertaining movie.

To finish I've just got a general question for folks familar with 70s/80s sci-fi (which is what MP reminds me of most), were the protagonists of shows like captain harlock and Cobra that concerned with "reflecting on the meanings or implications of events and decisions"?
I've watched both,but a long time ago so I'm not an authority, and I'd say no but I'd definatly like some imput on this

Quote:
Character development in a show isn't limited to dramatic moments nor excitement limited to having big explosions. You can achieve both with other methods.
That's not Enzo's problem,he knows this,or else his avatar wouldn't come from Cross Game
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Last edited by totoum; 2012-01-29 at 10:53.
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Old 2012-01-29, 06:49   Link #684
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
That's not Enzo's problem,he knows this,or else his avatar wouldn't come from Cross Game
I've haven't read much of that manga but I'm pretty sure someone dies pretty early. Also its a sports manga so i assume every pitch is portrayed as a life and death struggle.

Either way that's what I've taken from this discussion with him. His statement that "You can't have excitement if there's no sense of danger, and you can't have character development if there's no emotional volatility" more or less says exactly that. Whether he means something different or not, he'd need to clarify that more beyond claiming the impossibility of backing up his own claims.
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:14   Link #685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
I've haven't read much of that manga but I'm pretty sure someone dies pretty early. Also its a sports manga so i assume every pitch is portrayed as a life and death struggle.
You should stop assuming things,that includes how you assume the character's death is handled , That's all I'll say

I don't think Enzo associates "emotional volatility" with "dramatic moment" , that's not how I read it anyway.

Though I guess I better let Enzo answer himself.
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:48   Link #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Please don't attempt to put words in my mouth, because you're not even in the ballpark here.

When you have characters behaving exactly the same in every situation, without even a break in facial expression, there's no sense of consequence for anything that happens. There's no sense that the characters relationships have changed at all, because they haven't changed at all. I don't care about action - I'd be very happy to watch a slice-of-life about space pirates. But a good slice-of-life needs character dynamics to be really engaging. It needs to portray how the characters feel, both in general and about each other. And those things need to evolve in reaction to the events around them. I'm just not seeing any of that whatsoever here, at least not yet.

As I said, the major hangup that's preventing me from going from "like" to "love" with this show is that it's an emotional flatline. No matter what happens, nothing with the characters ever changes. Rather than slice-of-life, right now it's closer to a documentary. Sooner or later that's going to change - I mean, you'd think it has to - but there's a limit to how long characters can be two-dimensional before any development they do get seems artificial. We're not at that point yet, but it's not all that far off.
Emotional change needs a catalyst though, otherwise it just feels artificial. Having people bounce between emotions for the sake of having them bounce between emotions and look like they're growing is a flaw many shows and movies have, and usually ends up with them returning to the status quo because it was all artificial to begin with.

This coming battle could prove to be nice catalyst. A bit of facing your own mortality is always a nice way to pump out some emotion. Though I would like to avoid the usual drama that accompanies it. Realistic though it may be, having characters mope around for several episodes is not my cup of tea.

Then again, as it's the first battle I wouldn't at all be surprised if it ends up being a crushing victory to show how awesome the crew of the Odette is.
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Old 2012-01-29, 09:01   Link #687
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I can half-see Guardian Enzo's point.

One thing the show could do better is establish the significance of some of the activities. EG: it seems like a big deal that the space yacht club is actually getting to go on a cruise, but that's only implied, not stated. Is this voyage an annual, "each year after school gets out" activity? Or is getting to take the yacht a more-special opportunity? The show's been a bit weak on that type of world-building.

On the other hand, this seems to be a star trek type show, wherein the show's mostly about people-management and problem solving (except the techno-babble here is interesting and logical, so far, whereas it was just made-up plot hacks in every star trek ever). That style of show's not for everyone, but it's hard to combine that style with exceptionally deep and complex characters: the characters have to be relatively static for the "management" part of the show to work, so there's a tension there.
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Old 2012-01-29, 09:18   Link #688
Rayrah
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Hm, I’ve really come to like the show and it’s slow pace after watching the fourth episode. So far, this show has been easy watching for me. Marika’s spiky hair is awsum.
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Old 2012-01-29, 09:27   Link #689
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So their space adventure began...
Learning ships controls & chasing ghost ships ^^
Pretty relaxed episode.
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Old 2012-01-29, 10:47   Link #690
Endless Soul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
The Motto of this episode was "breakfast beats worrying" and characters try to apply this all over the show. Notably Marika has aknowledged in episode 3 that she's scared but instead of letting her fears get to her she uses them as motivation.
Ah yes, "Fear is the mindkiller." This is one of the reasons why she will be a great leader. Also, she has the smarts to be a leader. Clearly the teacher is impressed with her ability to come up with a plan of action without any prior experience.

Does anyone else wonder about the Odette II? We know it's one of the original 7. We know it has decent cyber capabilities and sensors. We don't yet know what sort of actual weapons it has. However, its appearace, with all those solar sails, looks rather frilly and delicate. I can't help but wonder if it was purpose built as a Q-ship, which would make sense since it's main role was to be a privateer since it's conception.

Endless "Q-ship" Soul
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Old 2012-01-29, 11:20   Link #691
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a quick sig i put together

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Old 2012-01-29, 11:23   Link #692
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Originally Posted by Endless Soul View Post
Ah yes, "Fear is the mindkiller." This is one of the reasons why she will be a great leader. Also, she has the smarts to be a leader. Clearly the teacher is impressed with her ability to come up with a plan of action without any prior experience.

Does anyone else wonder about the Odette II? We know it's one of the original 7. We know it has decent cyber capabilities and sensors. We don't yet know what sort of actual weapons it has. However, its appearace, with all those solar sails, looks rather frilly and delicate. I can't help but wonder if it was purpose built as a Q-ship, which would make sense since it's main role was to be a privateer since it's conception.

Endless "Q-ship" Soul
Nope, episode 2 explain the Odette II was previously an explorer ship before it was modified to be use as a pirate ship during the Morning Star independence war.

Anyway, i'm still loving this show. Event though it's slow, it still has great plot and character development. I just wish people who just stop complaining about it being slow, no action and no fanservice and accept the show of what it is: A coming-of-age sci-fi adventure of a young girl who learns by her own experience, skills and knowledge to accept her destiny of becoming a space pirate.
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Old 2012-01-29, 11:30   Link #693
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More likely it was originally a merchant ship later converted to heavy combatant during the war of Independence.

The "Original Seven" is probably a reference to the seven cruisers commissioned by George Washington during the American War of Independence that was the beginning of the American Navy.
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Old 2012-01-29, 11:39   Link #694
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this one continues to be a fun watch, the girls space suits are nice too, not so bulky

a bit jealous that in the future, even high-schoolers have chance to go into space

and i think i get it now, Marika will become a pirate/captain in the last eps, just like Madoka^^
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Old 2012-01-29, 11:43   Link #695
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Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Anyway, i'm still loving this show. Event though it's slow, it still has great plot and character development. I just wish people who just stop complaining about it being slow
Look,Marika has definatly learned a lot,but has her personality changed in anyway?She's still the same girl she was on episode 1,just with more knowledge.

Same for Chiaki,she's shown a soft spot for chocolat parfaits,otherwise it's the same pokerface all the time.

Now that doesn't bother me at all,Marika learning new stuff,Marika showing off her leadership skills.Chiaki being more and more impressed with her,but it seems others want more.
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Old 2012-01-29, 12:41   Link #696
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
You should stop assuming things,that includes how you assume the character's death is handled , That's all I'll say

I don't think Enzo associates "emotional volatility" with "dramatic moment" , that's not how I read it anyway.

Though I guess I better let Enzo answer himself.
Sorry totoum, but pursuing a discussion where one party is primarily interested in provocation is a path of diminishing returns, so I'm done with that particular conversation. To the specifics of your point, I think I've pretty much stated what my POV is on that - what I'm looking for is some sort of dynamism - any sort. Clearly a lot of viewers don't care about that, or feel that there's enough of it to satisfy their needs - that's fine. We'll see how it develops from here.
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Old 2012-01-29, 13:00   Link #697
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Guardian Enzo: fwiw, I think you might be overestimating the seriousness of the situation the girls are in, b/c it's in space.

The way I've been filling in the blanks is roughly: the girls don't think they're in much danger; worst-case scenario they can still call the "space cops" -- or so they think -- and so Marika's logic seems reasonable (if they call the cops future yacht trips might not happen b/c the school would get nervous...so try scaring the bad guys away and call the cops if that doesn't pan out).

Similarly with Kane: he can still call the "space cops" and he knows the Bentenmaru is following the Odette, so he's not too worried either.

TL;DR: this isn't a bunch of girls in a war zone and failing to "get it"; the level of danger and serious of the situation is supposed to be closer to that of a bunch of high school girls on a sports trip to a major city, getting followed by a creepy guy, and coming up with a plan to scare the bad guy off without involving the authorities.

Next episode this could all turn out wrong, though, if things turn into a serious shooting match (and not just some rigged "let's test Marika and see how she does" scenario).
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Old 2012-01-29, 14:02   Link #698
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Jenny is starting to become pretty awesome. She's clearly the mistress of the Odette II. Here's to hoping that Space Pirate Captain Marika becomes Space Pirate Admiral Marika.
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Old 2012-01-29, 15:59   Link #699
Endless Soul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrorist
Nope, episode 2 explain the Odette II was previously an explorer ship before it was modified to be use as a pirate ship during the Morning Star independence war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett
More likely it was originally a merchant ship later converted to heavy combatant during the war of Independence.
So it really does fit the Q-ship description.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
More likely it was originally a merchant ship later converted to heavy combatant during the war of Independence.

The "Original Seven" is probably a reference to the seven cruisers commissioned by George Washington during the American War of Independence that was the beginning of the American Navy.
It was actually six frigates, but you may be right about the reference.
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Old 2012-01-29, 16:23   Link #700
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
Guardian Enzo: fwiw, I think you might be overestimating the seriousness of the situation the girls are in, b/c it's in space.

The way I've been filling in the blanks is roughly: the girls don't think they're in much danger; worst-case scenario they can still call the "space cops" -- or so they think -- and so Marika's logic seems reasonable (if they call the cops future yacht trips might not happen b/c the school would get nervous...so try scaring the bad guys away and call the cops if that doesn't pan out).

Similarly with Kane: he can still call the "space cops" and he knows the Bentenmaru is following the Odette, so he's not too worried either.

TL;DR: this isn't a bunch of girls in a war zone and failing to "get it"; the level of danger and serious of the situation is supposed to be closer to that of a bunch of high school girls on a sports trip to a major city, getting followed by a creepy guy, and coming up with a plan to scare the bad guy off without involving the authorities.

Next episode this could all turn out wrong, though, if things turn into a serious shooting match (and not just some rigged "let's test Marika and see how she does" scenario).
mike, I basically agree - I don't really think the girls are in all that much danger (this is only episode 4, after all). But even so, they're don't know everything Kane does, so while he has acciess to a panic button if he needs to use it, they don't necessarily know that.

I don't expect them to be running around panicking like their hair is on fire, no - in fact it's nice to see high school girls not depicted that way. All I'm saying is I'd find the series more engaging if the characters were giving me a little more. A little more reaction, a little more insight into whether they're feeling anything whatsoever, about each other at least. The reason I used the word "documentary" is because the show has the feeling of, as you say, a sports trip - but with a few hidden cameras turned on. It does create a low-key sense of realism, absolutely - it's just that for me the experience is a little flat. If that's not the case for you, that's great.
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