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 AnimeSuki Forum Diablo III

problemedchild
ô_ô

Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant Well, what's your armour when fully buffed? With only armour of 5000, 800 resist is inefficient. If you can drop half the resists and add 1500 armour, you will be better off.
Wha? Are you telling me to go 6500 Armor and 400 Resist all? There's no way that 1.5k armor is worth more than 400 resist all.

Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 36
Quote:
 Originally Posted by problemedchild Wha? Are you telling me to go 6500 Armor and 400 Resist all? There's no way that 1.5k armor is worth more than 400 resist all.
When I say drop half your resist, I mean half of 400, or drop 200.

10 Armour = 1 resist.
Your damage reduction is calculated by multiplying these two values together.

This means 6500 armour and 400 resist is the same as 4000 armour and 650 resist.

And because of how the game is programmed, you want to try to keep armour and resist in 10:1 ratio as close as you can.

So I am saying you could have cut your resist down to 675 or so, and have 6750 armour. 675*675=4.5 million true defence. Compared to 800*5000=4 million true defence that you have now.

(And you don't want to just stack armour or resist, as there is incremental decrease in effectiveness at certain break points.)
__________________

 2012-06-14, 17:45 Link #2643 aohige ( ಠ_ಠ)     Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep 5000 armor = around 62% mitigation 800 resist = around 71% mitigation your total mitigation as a ranged, you'd take home 11% damage of the original value. If you're melee, around 8% 6500 armor = 68% 200 resist = 40% Your take-home damage would be close to 19%. Significantly more. 6500 armor and 400 resist = 13%. 800 resist, 5000 armor is still better. For cost effeciency, it's a good practice to try and keep the 10:1 ratio of armor and resist if you can. The 10:1 ratio is true, but you have to also keep in mind the amount of % you get per point decreases as the number gets higher. It's not a simple addition. This, often mistakenly is called diminishing returns by people on forums, is actually not a dimimishing return. It looks like it becuase they are called the % value of mitigation "retun". However, the closer you get to 100% mitigation, the more value each % has, thus, raising the return vaule (actual mitigation in comparison to previous %) at the same rate as diminishing the accumilated % points. So there's no actual diminishing "value", since reduction of say... 99% to 98% is not the same result as reduction from 2% to 1%. But regardless, balancing resist and armor is easier way to achieve higher accumilated mitigation. __________________ Last edited by aohige; 2012-06-14 at 22:49.
Archon_Wing
Underwhelmed
Author

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Not here
Age: 33
So I managed to stack 5 valors in act 2. Yay! Except I didn't see another elite for another 25 minutes. What the fuck? How hard is it to find an elite in act 2 inferno?

It's about to expire, and my enchantress is like "yo, we have a chance! It's over there!". Can I kill him quickly enough? Nope, Vortex, shielding, fast, something (like it really matters); died in 4 seconds with serenity keeping me alive for 3. They moved so fucking fast I can't even outrun them, nor can I with vortex going in. :S I simply can't do shit against shielded monsters. After the ressurection timer hit 30 sec I ragequit in disgust.

Rigged. Back to act 1, amirite? :S

I also like how you're supposed to have to dodge the more telegraphed attacks. That's fine. That could take skill even if they do massive damage. Except Diablo 3 has the hit box detection of a game that wouldn't be acceptable in the NES era.

And they actually tried to justify this garbage
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4427663050#15
Quote:
 It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play. "Most effective" and "not fun" just can't be in the same sentence when describing part of the game. We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor. Also think about just running past enemies to rush through an area and never being hit. Anyone looking to rush would love it! Which is why it's not a good idea from a design perspective. It's not something we'll be changing.
Tl;DR Stop using skill to cheat, even if it's the only way to survive in a game where enemies do such massive damage. So much for "kiting".

The attitude is clear. Something as basic as dodging an attack is not intended. What it really means is a dedicated effort to remove skill as a factor in the game. So that, well, go to the auction house!

The worst part is that it's fairly evident the game designers don't know how to play their own game. (In fact they said so, since they didn't test Inferno) So to make assumptions like this is fairly asinine.

Let's get this right though. I didn't buy Diablo 3 for it to be a good game. I just wanted it as a platform to play a game I know many people, especially acquaintances and friends could play. Game balance is secondary to me-- server stability and integrity is first. But the attitude is callous to say the least.

The part of the game I enjoy the most is the AH. But that's a problem in and of itself.

More:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5813011726
__________________
 Let us start here from Square one. No... from zero! You do not wish to know anything. You wish only to speak. That which you know, you ignore, because it is inconvenient. That which you do not know, you invent. Avatar/Sig courtesy of TheEroKing Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 MyAnimeList || Reviews

Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2012-06-14 at 19:26.

 2012-06-14, 20:23 Link #2645 Flying Dagger 大巧不工     Join Date: Dec 2003 I added you to friends list, you could have asked for help (same as other people I added)
 2012-06-15, 00:41 Link #2646 triskelion Senior Member Fansubber     Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Canada Age: 25 Hmm, I pretty much quit once the RMAH came out. I made it up to Act 4 Inferno right before Diablo on my barb. I'm selling all of my equipment for \$250 each! (One already sold )
LoweGear
Great Commandy One
Graphic Designer

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of the usual flamenco
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Archon_Wing I also like how you're supposed to have to dodge the more telegraphed attacks. That's fine. That could take skill even if they do massive damage. Except Diablo 3 has the hit box detection of a game that wouldn't be acceptable in the NES era. And they actually tried to justify this garbage http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4427663050#15 Tl;DR Stop using skill to cheat, even if it's the only way to survive in a game where enemies do such massive damage. So much for "kiting". The attitude is clear. Something as basic as dodging an attack is not intended. What it really means is a dedicated effort to remove skill as a factor in the game. So that, well, go to the auction house! The worst part is that it's fairly evident the game designers don't know how to play their own game. (In fact they said so, since they didn't test Inferno) So to make assumptions like this is fairly asinine. Let's get this right though. I didn't buy Diablo 3 for it to be a good game. I just wanted it as a platform to play a game I know many people, especially acquaintances and friends could play. Game balance is secondary to me-- server stability and integrity is first. But the attitude is callous to say the least.
Methinks you should read the thread some more before plopping such judgement on the intent. The entire blue post was in regard to the supposed "ranged melee" hits going on, and everyone basically pinned it down to both latency and game mechanics. Kiting attacks is still very much a part of the game (as my mostly successful danmaku experience with my Wizard on Hell and Demon Hunters show), but if you get in melee range, you will get hit period since the attack is based whether you get into melee range regardless of the animation, which is how it works. The only melee attacks you can successfuly move-dodge out of will be the ultra-slow, telegraphed attacks like with Dark Berserkers who wind their hammers. All it means is that you should be good enough not to get into melee range in the first place, or if you are a melee warrior to be able to use your abilities to mitigate damage. Difficult to do sometimes due to lag, but on a good connection it is pretty easy.

These explain better than I do:

Quote:
 Of course you can dodge some attacks, but they don't what every melee swipe from a monster to be easily dodgeable by clicking your mouse one pixel away. There are stats for a reason. There is even an actual Dodge stat. This is more about exploit prevention, not removing skill. Blizzard wants you to cast Teleport to avoid some attacks...not just by clicking to the left...What Bash said made complete sense. Movement dodging will still work for the big Ranged or telegraphed melee attacks, but having every monster's "auto-attack" subject to precise hit detection could make the most effective defensive tactic just boring side-stepping.
Quote:
 Hyperbole aside, I don't see this as being them kneecapping the player, it's establishing a uniform playing field to allow for balancing. If juking melee attacks is possible, which is clearly something that was on the table at some point based on Bashiok's response, then that adds another layer of complexity into how challenging/punitive they have to make encounters. A player with negligbile latency and incredible reflexes could theoretically complete an encounter, juke every melee attack, and come out the other side while taking no damage. In this kind of a model, you're left with two options; either you balance around people who actively dodge everything so if you take one or two hits you die, or you balance around people taking hits which means the dodger never has a challenge in the entire game. Based on the videos posted, it doesn't look like the hit detection is buggy, it seems to follow pretty strict rules. If a zombie is on the edge of the screen and you're away, it doesn't hit you. If you run into melee range, it will hit you. The answer, of course, is to play to your strengths; ranged stay out of melee, melee do what they can to prevent the damage.
And as some posts mentioned and I agree with, this system was present in D2, just that we didn't have to worry about system and net lag as much so it wasn't much of an issue. I agree with both of them because it pretty much mirrors my own experience playing the game. Kiting mobs is easy, which means that you getting hit in melee is your own fault if you get into their range in the first place.

Where I will agree with your assessment though is in the one difficulty level where this entire philosophy breaks down: Inferno, where one-hit attacks are so common that this entire system renders the entire difficulty near impossible. This is more of a numbers issue with said difficulty than with the mechanics themselves though, and if they adjusted the damage and health of monsters to match the difficulty curve of Normal > Nightmare > Hell, then we wouldn't have as many complaints as we do.

Edit:

Reading through the entire thread, there's a recent post showing that the "problem" was actually fixed to an extent:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/top...50?page=25#499

Quote:
 sooo yea... just tested this again after i noticed i dodged a slow attack made by a zombie... looks like blizz listened to us!! =D instead of the range being unlimited, its now more like d2. leeway is given, just not unlimited. problem solved ^^ imma test this a bit more to make sure
From his post, it seems like as where before the attack damage is ensured as long as the attack animation had started, now the damage will not be dealt if you get a certain distance enough even after the animation had begun. The issue in the thread was more of attack damage-to-animation correlation anyway, which was noticeable only in monsters with regular attacks that had slow animations, so them fixing this "problem" so it doesn't look like a bug seems to be a step in the right direction.
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On Flying: "For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Last edited by LoweGear; 2012-06-15 at 02:23.

Archon_Wing
Underwhelmed
Author

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Not here
Age: 33
Quote:
 Originally Posted by LoweGear Methinks you should read the thread some more before plopping such judgement on the intent. The entire blue post was in regard to the supposed "ranged melee" hits going on, and everyone basically pinned it down to both latency and game mechanics. Kiting attacks is still very much a part of the game (as my mostly successful danmaku experience with my Wizard on Hell and Demon Hunters show), but if you get in melee range, you will get hit period since the attack is based whether you get into melee range regardless of the animation, which is how it works. The only melee attacks you can successfuly move-dodge out of will be the ultra-slow, telegraphed attacks like with Dark Berserkers who wind their hammers. All it means is that you should be good enough not to get into melee range in the first place, or if you are a melee warrior to be able to use your abilities to mitigate damage. Difficult to do sometimes due to lag, but on a good connection it is pretty easy.
I linked a second thread where they proved the things really well. When you get to melee range, it's autohit! That just comes off as really lazy and unintuitive when the animation starts you getting hit when you're not there. I wasn't mentioning projectiles in particular though I suppose I wasn't very specific. The issue goes being lag though; they're claiming it's by design.

But it's not the game design in itself that I find offensive. When a blue post says something condescending and obviously doesn't know what they're talking about like:

Quote:
 We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do
I just get the feeling the way they're balancing things just feels like they're forcing a playstyle on people. Oh sure, a certain Monk skill was overpowered, but completely removing it seems unimaginative to me.

Quote:
 And as some posts mentioned and I agree with, this system was present in D2, just that we didn't have to worry about system and net lag as much so it wasn't much of an issue. I agree with both of them because it pretty much mirrors my own experience playing the game. Kiting mobs is easy, which means that you getting hit in melee is your own fault if you get into their range in the first place.
I don't think people should be punished for making mistakes like that. That just reeks of "you're close enough, so -hp" in a game where you get penalized so badly for doing anything wrong. Overly punitive gaming isn't fun. This isn't even factoring in that a lot of the elite packs (which is really everything that matters) simply FLOOD the screen with their garbage. If you're gonna do Touhou style terror and difficulty, then at least give us top notch control, and fair hitbox detection. This is "true" difficulty. You can learn, you can get better and overcome this situation. But this + natural server lag means that's just not possible. So what happens in D3? You get better by overgearing the content. You don't really learn anything except maybe how to grind the same area you've been doing faster. It's my experience in most of act 1 and first part of act 2 inferno. At first I couldn't do shit and no matter what, they just steamrolled me. Now I just keep left clicking and most of them die after a million spent in the auction house. There was no in between and I didn't feel like I got any better as a player.

Compare this to d2, where monster AI is improved in hell mode and if I ever died or did badly, I always knew that I did something wrong and could improve without getting new gear. Well, except lag... ;p Elite packs could be planned against with a strategy. Lightning enchanted monsters were lethal, but the sparks came out in a predictable, dodgable fashion that could mean the difference between lolstomp and getting killed. In D3, most elite traits require you to be 1.5 screens away or you activate your invincibility thing or you can't avoid it at all. So really, pattern recognition > hitting a button.

I refuse to buy the "you shouldn't be that close to them". There's plenty of superfast monsters that you can't easily clear, and this is especially unfair to melee who MUST get hit badly. With the exception of the dodge %, it's impossible to avoid. It just kinda erodes away at the "action" part of Action RPG. Also, certain dungeons and quest situations generate monsters that are insanely close, like in act 2 when you first enter the palace or even something as simple as those skeletons right outside Leoric's door.

And yes, D2 had that, but that was 13 years ago for crying out loud! A broadband connection is required for D3.

Quote:
 Where I will agree with your assessment though is in the one difficulty level where this entire philosophy breaks down: Inferno, where one-hit attacks are so common that this entire system renders the entire difficulty near impossible. This is more of a numbers issue with said difficulty than with the mechanics themselves though, and if they adjusted the damage and health of monsters to match the difficulty curve of Normal > Nightmare > Hell, then we wouldn't have as many complaints as we do.
Indeed, if it were properly tested nobody would be complaining. But since they just randomly inflated the numbers and basically let players beta test it just makes it lazy. Intentionally. But still intentionally lazy.

Quote:
 From his post, it seems like as where before the attack damage is ensured as long as the attack animation had started, now the damage will not be dealt if you get a certain distance enough even after the animation had begun. The issue in the thread was more of attack damage-to-animation correlation anyway, which was noticeable only in monsters with regular attacks that had slow animations, so them fixing this "problem" so it doesn't look like a bug seems to be a step in the right direction.
Well, I am shocked, to be honest. But hey, I guess they admit the design was broken and are taking the proper steps. I can live with that. Really. And then you guys won't have to put up with 600 more posts of my crap. We all win.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Flying Dagger I added you to friends list, you could have asked for help (same as other people I added)
Should write in the notes for who you are in the request, but I guess I can guess which.
__________________
 Let us start here from Square one. No... from zero! You do not wish to know anything. You wish only to speak. That which you know, you ignore, because it is inconvenient. That which you do not know, you invent. Avatar/Sig courtesy of TheEroKing Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 MyAnimeList || Reviews

Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2012-06-15 at 06:05.

LoweGear
Great Commandy One
Graphic Designer

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of the usual flamenco
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Archon_Wing I linked a second thread where they proved the things really well. When you get to melee range, it's autohit! That just comes off as really lazy and unintuitive when the animation starts you getting hit when you're not there.
Technically, it "tags" the hit when you get in range, and then the damage only comes once the animation finishes. Hence the illusion that you're getting hit at range even if you moved away.

The thing to remember is that this isn't a mechanic unique to Diablo 3. It's actually a very common mechanic in alot of RTS games, just that in this particular case the implementation of the hitscan timing makes it look "bugged".

Quote:
 I refuse to buy the "you shouldn't be that close to them". There's plenty of superfast monsters that you can't easily clear, and this is especially unfair to melee who MUST get hit badly. With the exception of the dodge %, it's impossible to avoid. It just kinda erodes away at the "action" part of Action RPG. Also, certain dungeons and quest situations generate monsters that are insanely close, like in act 2 when you first enter the palace or even something as simple as those skeletons right outside Leoric's door. And yes, D2 had that, but that was 13 years ago for crying out loud! A broadband connection is required for D3.
I've only encountered very few superfast Elite monsters with the ability to deal fatal damage in a single hit, and that's in Inferno difficulty. Most of the instant spawn monsters like Belial's serpents or those skeletons you're talking about are easily killed provided you're DPS is high enough, even for ranged heroes like Demon Hunters. And melee units being naturally tougher rather negates the fact that they can get hit, and this before taking into account active life-steal, healing and damage negation spells.

And pray tell, how is this any different from Diablo 2? Testing my Barbarian on D3, he plays very similarly to my Barbarian in D2: dodge incoming ranged fire, tank what you can't dodge, and then slaughter them in melee with Bash and/or Whirlwind. And my Wizard plays identically to my Hardcore Sorceress then: Kite, spam spells, don't get close to anyone, and if they did they'll taste Frost Nova (I miss the days when it was spammable, I sometimes kept it with my right click ). Never had I needed to split-second dodge regular attacks by simply walking out, and nor did I have the reflexes to do that anyway. If I got hit in melee by non-jumping or non-teleporting mobs, that was my own fault for not positioning myself better.

The "Action" in this action RPG is to make sure that when the time does come that you find yourself overwhelmed or in a pickle, that your spells and abilities are capable of extricating yourself out and prevail. Gear plays a big part in how effective you are yes - this is Diablo, of course it does - but I don't feel that D3 is any less "actiony" than D2 was, especially not with the presence of a hit-damage mechanic that's always been there.

Note that my positive experience for D3 lasts as long as Hell difficulty. I still think Inferno relies far too much on artificial difficulty to be worth it. I'm waiting on their damage value adjustments in Patch 1.03 in order to continue through it.
__________________

On Flying: "For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

 2012-06-15, 06:26 Link #2650 Skane Anime Snark     Join Date: May 2006 Location: Singapore Age: 34 Inferno Act-1 is fine, if you are used to Diablo 2's Hell Difficulty. Give it a twirl, the experience might surprise you. Seasoned gamers should not find Inferno Act-1 exceedingly hard. Cheers. __________________ Hearthstone Battletag: Skane#1425 [Can't GIF This], [Jail's House of Rock], [Kanon In The Snow], [She Ain't Dead Yet... She's In Quantum], [She Stabs] Founder of "The Cult of Psycho-Moe", Member of "ARIA the Social Group" & the "Belkan Saint Church".
 2012-06-15, 07:06 Link #2651 Paranoid Android Underweight Food Hoarder     Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Kitch-Water and T.O., Canada Age: 26 Lol I'm somehow addicted to watching Hardcore players die in Inferno xP I feel their pain but glad it wasn't me.
 2012-06-15, 13:07 Link #2652 Skane Anime Snark     Join Date: May 2006 Location: Singapore Age: 34 Tried to advance in Inferno Act 2, and made it to the Enchantress Bridge before I decided I just wasn't ready for it yet. First Elite pack was Illusionist-Mortar-Arcane-Desecrator Fallen. ಠ_ಠ It's okay. I got this. Teleport in with Thunderfist while Serenity is up and kite around the arcane beams and desecration pools. Like a boss. Woo, that wasn't so bad right? Then I meet the next Elite pack. Illusionist-Molten-Waller-Something WASPS (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ I can't melee them head-on, because of their LOL-butt-bug-bombs. I can't chase after them because of the Molten affix. And strafing is near impossible because of all the illusions spamming their bug-bombs. Epic rage when I finally lock one down only to find out that it is an illusion. In the end, I was forced to park them in some forsaken corner after dying so that I could proceed with the quest to disrupt the ritual. I can handle normal Wasps pretty easily, but the Elite versions are just insane. Going to have to rethink my skill selection for Act 2. Hmm... __________________ Hearthstone Battletag: Skane#1425 [Can't GIF This], [Jail's House of Rock], [Kanon In The Snow], [She Ain't Dead Yet... She's In Quantum], [She Stabs] Founder of "The Cult of Psycho-Moe", Member of "ARIA the Social Group" & the "Belkan Saint Church".
 2012-06-15, 13:08 Link #2653 aohige ( ಠ_ಠ)     Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep Molten wasps, with any combination of enchants, is neigh impossible for melee. I'm sure it's possible upon dozens of death tries, but it's simply not worth it. __________________
 2012-06-15, 13:34 Link #2654 Flying Dagger 大巧不工     Join Date: Dec 2003 lol I rmb wasps.... after I learned inf act with friends I was like, "ok guys, that was ez, lets do act 2" *get face smashed in* Those wasps are esp horrible as they tend to shoot 3 missiles at you while you are right behind them chasing them down. Those are cakewalk for ranged dps though. My demon hunter prints money while my barb burns them.
 2012-06-15, 14:07 Link #2655 SagaraSouske Senior Member   Join Date: Jul 2007 DH just require a lot less gear to be effective. But with really good gear, melee can farm better because they won't get one shoted and can still have relatively high dps. But to get there prob requires 10xthe gear cost of DH. __________________
 2012-06-15, 14:50 Link #2656 Flying Dagger 大巧不工     Join Date: Dec 2003 10x? Are you kidding me? I spent less than 100k on my DH: he is wearing a lot of blues I found on barb: a dex/IAS+str/IAS ring, dex/ias neck. I borrowed a str andy helm from barb (costed only 150k) and I found my chest and bow (used to use a 1k dps bow I found as well). I do well as long as I am careful enough vs trash. I usually die to spear throwers/archers/soul rippers while heading south because of the limited vision in that direction. Just a stormshield on my barb alone costed 14mil (worth 20mil now). Any decent piece of melee gear cost at least 2mil+ a piece. With 13 slots it would be 26mil. That is 260x the money I spent on my DH that does the job on an equivalent level. Not to mention each full repair on barb cost 14-15k while DH cost only 7k. A well geared melee can easily chew through trash (other than some trash that aren't really meant to be tanked: big axe skeletons and giant crab tremors can still hurt. Vs elites @ 20k dps they still take a little while to die. A ranged class in "equal" gear are no longer glass cannons. Wizards and DHs are able to take at least a hit (or two) from those ranged attacks that usually 1 shot them while still doing a fair amount of dps (50-60k base). As long as I have room to kite I can kill most non-illusion/non-inv minion elites with traps only (that's how I kill siegebreaker), melee is pretty screwed vs any ground effect+jailer, screwed vs fire chain, screwed vs mortar against elites that run away... The grping hotfix was a blessing: monk+barb is actually quite powerful when you stack the buffs and debuffs. Why must melee pay ranged classes gold (and even real money) in order to progress? My own barbarian's progression is carried by my demon hunter: without my DH my barb would most likely be stuck in act 2. I have sold dozens of moderately good melee oriented gear (60 resist all+40 phy/ele resist, ~80 vit and some str/dex) for \$12.99 on the AH and they sell like cupcakes. Unless you can already farm efficiently I feel that melee classes are just fueling my pockets. When ranged classes get bored of playing ranged and farming, they can afford to spend 60-100mil to buy a new set of barb gear - because we have made so much more already. I am confident that I can easily have made over \$1k if I had made a DH/wiz on day 1. tl;dr: This game is broken and don't buy shit off rmah.
 2012-06-15, 15:09 Link #2657 Jazzrat Bearly Legal     Join Date: Jun 2004 Diablo 3, where gamers make money off the game lol... Finally got my barb into inferno, kinda liking it better than my monk but then again, my monk's gear is a bit out of whack right now. I hope they would fix some of the monster's attack especially those long animation power attacks the melts melee cause they will auto track you even when you try to dodge it. __________________
Kokukirin

Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jazzrat Diablo 3, where gamers make money off the game lol... Finally got my barb into inferno, kinda liking it better than my monk but then again, my monk's gear is a bit out of whack right now.
Well, in other A(MMO)RPGs it's mostly the botters getting to make money off the game. D3 RMAH merely provides a more convenient platform for all gamers to sell their gears and for Blizzard to get a cut of the profit. In the end it is probably good for everyone.

Quote:
 I hope they would fix some of the monster's attack especially those long animation power attacks the melts melee cause they will auto track you even when you try to dodge it.
Yeah it seems the damage is already determined when the attack animation begins, but the game only shows the damage when the animation is done. I have a hard time with that.

Archon_Wing
Underwhelmed
Author

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Not here
Age: 33
Quote:
 Originally Posted by LoweGear Technically, it "tags" the hit when you get in range, and then the damage only comes once the animation finishes. Hence the illusion that you're getting hit at range even if you moved away. The thing to remember is that this isn't a mechanic unique to Diablo 3. It's actually a very common mechanic in alot of RTS games, just that in this particular case the implementation of the hitscan timing makes it look "bugged".
I am aware Starcraft and Starcraft 2 do this. However, this is because the focus is on many units, and the logistics on many units dodging would be too hard to display and conceive it with proper balance. In this case, it was a strict balance decision. It also has the excuse of being a strategy game so things are more abstract (such as guys popping out of constructed buildings)

But even Sc/sc2 offer a high level of control, and in fact a lot of the microing is focused around animation cancelling.

Quote:
 I've only encountered very few superfast Elite monsters with the ability to deal fatal damage in a single hit, and that's in Inferno difficulty. Most of the instant spawn monsters like Belial's serpents or those skeletons you're talking about are easily killed provided you're DPS is high enough, even for ranged heroes like Demon Hunters. And melee units being naturally tougher rather negates the fact that they can get hit, and this before taking into account active life-steal, healing and damage negation spells.
It's true but not everyone has the best gear. Also, life steal is worthless in inferno because it is heavily nerfed. You can go for the expensive LOH though.
Quote:
 And pray tell, how is this any different from Diablo 2? Testing my Barbarian on D3, he plays very similarly to my Barbarian in D2: dodge incoming ranged fire, tank what you can't dodge, and then slaughter them in melee with Bash and/or Whirlwind. And my Wizard plays identically to my Hardcore Sorceress then: Kite, spam spells, don't get close to anyone, and if they did they'll taste Frost Nova (I miss the days when it was spammable, I sometimes kept it with my right click ). Never had I needed to split-second dodge regular attacks by simply walking out, and nor did I have the reflexes to do that anyway. If I got hit in melee by non-jumping or non-teleporting mobs, that was my own fault for not positioning myself better.
Well, for one the Barbarian in Diablo 2 could easily tank many of the toughest mobs in the game by having obscene health with battle orders. You didn't need particularly good gear for that. (Let's not remind of ourselfs of the stupidity that is Call to Arms though), and sorcs had insane instant spammable teleport. They were just more well equipped and D2's crowds tend to be thinner.

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 The "Action" in this action RPG is to make sure that when the time does come that you find yourself overwhelmed or in a pickle, that your spells and abilities are capable of extricating yourself out and prevail. Gear plays a big part in how effective you are yes - this is Diablo, of course it does - but I don't feel that D3 is any less "actiony" than D2 was, especially not with the presence of a hit-damage mechanic that's always been there.
But that's the thing. You're just forced to press a button once every x seconds, and it seems that every class just needs some get of jail free card and that makes the game feel uniform across classes. Cooldowns and the kiting required cause the pace of the game to slow down a lot, and cause it to be boring. Until you overgear and roflstomp the place... for a new kind of boring.

I'm not saying this doesn't work. Act 4 is well conceived to this kind of playstyle. But Act 2 was horrifically boring in every difficulty to me compared to act 1 and 3. Long narrow stretches of nothing following by those asshole bugs that just kite you.

And let's talk about the original Diablo. It didn't have to use overcrowding and the game was slow, but the pace of the game was consistent enough to keep you on your toes since every a few monsters could overwhelm you if you didn't know when to backout and conserve resources. In d3, you have to conserve resources, but the skills require such a long wait and potions suck so much that you just have to conserve time. Which involves a lot of sitting around. But I feel that's another problem-- they wanted health orbs to replace potions, but health orbs are so inconsistent that you are constantly at the mercy of the RNG, and it's easier to get them from trash mobs, meaning that they aren't reliable enough to help when it really matters.
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 Note that my positive experience for D3 lasts as long as Hell difficulty. I still think Inferno relies far too much on artificial difficulty to be worth it. I'm waiting on their damage value adjustments in Patch 1.03 in order to continue through it.
I think the monster stats could stay ridiculous but with one change. Currently monsters themselves are glass cannons. One person told me to try the enchantress charm. You can see charmed zombies one-shotting their friends, so I bet they're complaining too.
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 Let us start here from Square one. No... from zero! You do not wish to know anything. You wish only to speak. That which you know, you ignore, because it is inconvenient. That which you do not know, you invent. Avatar/Sig courtesy of TheEroKing Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 MyAnimeList || Reviews

Ryuudou
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Archon_Wing But even Sc/sc2 offer a high level of control, and in fact a lot of the microing is focused around animation cancelling.
Unfortunately they took a lot of animation canceling out in SC2. At least there's marine stutter step.

 Tags arpg, blizzard, dungeon crawler