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Old 2009-09-01, 05:15   Link #141
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 27
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
Maybe we could go through Chartfag's summer anime chart together and identify the anime with female characters without fetish (w)ear (pardon the pun). Real japanese school uniforms do not end two finger widths below the crotch, ya now.
You'd be surprised how similar that is in some UK schools. Particularly mine.
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Old 2009-09-01, 10:30   Link #142
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Age: 29
@ Veritas

GL was not a show dirercted at the maho shoujo croud like say nanoha or sailor moon, and when you talk about to sailor moon, the bust size isn't ridiculous as it is with barbie, etc. It's not about the characters age, it's about who the target demographic and it seems that in the US, the younger the demographic the more unhealthy the image is.

@VVayfarer and Midnightviper88

Your kidding right? The reason why I claim Jasmine as an example of hypersexualization isn't because of just the outfit, but in american society it seems that that certain dress isn't appropriate, the outfit is actually not that of the middle east, it's the romanticized/westernized vision of the middle east, based off what Americans thought snake charmers were. In the middle east you'd probably see a woman in burka then in what Jasmine was wearing. Male sexuality is far more harder to distinguish but generally in Disney movies they don't focus on the strapping shoulders and thick arms, or at least the movies pre circa 1994.

My point is that when you look at how women are depicted in the America more so than the "west" you notice the stark hypocrisy and that make's it glaringly obvious how very prudish America really is. We may censory shit, ass, bitch on the radio but we sure as hell allow all that innuendo to go on.
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Old 2009-09-01, 11:04   Link #143
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I'm not even gonna mention the uttley disgusting looking Brats.

Seriously that shit should be banned, with its constant selling images of plastic surgery and make up.
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Old 2009-09-01, 12:15   Link #144
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Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
Maybe we could go through Chartfag's summer anime chart together and identify the anime with female characters without fetish (w)ear (pardon the pun). Real japanese school uniforms do not end two finger widths below the crotch, ya now.
The whole short skirt thing in anime... yeah, it is a form of sexualization, but to me it's always fallen well to the low end of the scale. You need gratuitous thigh shots and possibly knee socks to up it to even moderately sexual.

This is actually a weird case of disconnect between fantasy and reality though... as a cosplay photographer, I've always found the short skirt thing very eye catching in real life - and most cosplayers are sane enough to wear something that at least comes midway down the thigh.

Originally Posted by Veritas View Post
What's worse is that the sexual images often featured exaggeratedly young characters, and people coping with sex with more immaturity and misinformation than in the United States, which strikes me as even less healthy by quite a bit.
Are we talking sex or sexualization here? Sexualization is common in anime and young characters sometimes end up being sexualized, but aside from hentai, there's little sex in anime in my experience.

Originally Posted by space cowboy View Post
Wooh i never at any point denied the fact western animation has female protagonists, i just said on the whole japan chooses to use females as the main characters a lot more frequently that western animation. My argument here would be, granted Disney does offer female audiences princess's to look up to, however which is a better portrayal of women in your opinion, Snow White with her constant chores and need for rescue from a male (just like Cinderella and all Disney movies staring female leads), or Oshii's portrayal of the Major in Ghost in the shell, as an ass kicking, special division leading, granted sometimes naked (but me beliefs for Oshii's choice of having her naked in certain scenes goes way way deeper than just an attraction for the male gaze), strong willed and independent leader type figure. Now i've used an examples you previously mentioned and so havn't picked and choose so to speak, but on the whole which do you think is more empowering to both the character and the female's in the audience watching. In my opinion the Major is a better role model than most traditional Disney female characters who seem to be stuck in the concrete foundations of "women in the home, man must rescue women". Note i'm not saying there isnt any cases for this in Japanese anime, im simplying comparing two directly.
My one problem with using the Major as an example of a good role model in anime is that I'd hope most people had some good role models before they're old enough to see Ghost in the Shell. Same reason I cut a ton of anime a lot of slack for having bad role models, actually.

(I also find it interesting that most discussions of empowerment end up concentrating a lot on who can kick the most ass.)
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Old 2009-09-02, 15:06   Link #145
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Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
Real japanese school uniforms do not end two finger widths below the crotch, ya now.
lol, I recall coming across something about complaints of short skirts (although not two finger width's short) from school boards or somebody on or

Anyways, with regards to the idea of being prudish and sexual expression: Japan was very liberal in the Edo (aka Tokugawa) period from 1615 to 1868. When sexual services legally accompanied entertainment, and all of what we might think of as modern ero concepts, including uh.. tentacles dates back at least to this period.

And unlike today where we think of such portrayals as complete fantasy, it reflected an idealized state of society back then, in terms people's desires. It was like Japan's period of free love, except the government was also in on it "Class barriers were fluid; money was new, loose, plentiful. Downtime became a preoccupation, leisure an industry." Perhaps ironically, women probably saw the most liberation and highest social standing during this period in pre-modern Japan. That's not to say that everything was alright though. Problems arose from indentured servitude. Although you could say that at least there was less of double standard where men would suffer just as equally working as a boy-toy for male and female patrons until they could repay their debt or fulfill their contract

The legendary woodblock artist Hokusai coined the term manga to describe the popular comic woodblock images during the Edo.

The shunga prints represented a vast range of sexual fantasies with heterosexual, gay, lesbian, and masturbatory imagery, and they came in poster form, so for those who could not afford a prostitute would be content with an erotic poster.

Not until the Meiji period was pornography restricted, with the influence of Western moral standards. Censorship laws were passed, which limited sexually explicit art by prohibiting pubic hair and genitalia in all forms.
lot's o' links:

lot's o' quotes:

on sex and morality:
Unlike the West, in Japan sex was not viewed in terms of morality, but rather in terms of pleasure, social position, and social responsibility.
on nudity:
In almost all shunga the characters are fully clothed. This is primarily because nudity was not inherently erotic in Tokugawa Japan - people were used to seeing the opposite sex naked in communal baths. It also served an artistic purpose; it helped the reader identify courtesans and foreigners, the prints often contained symbolic meaning, and it drew attention to the parts of the body that were revealed, i.e., the genitalia.
on identity, sociology, shounen-ai, shoujo-ai
Before western contact, Japan did not have a system of identification in which one’s identity was determined by one’s biological sexual preference. In fact, “the tripartite taxonomy of sexual types that has resulted from the social construction [homo-, bi-, heterosexuality-], held no currency in Japan.”

However, this does not indicate that sexual behaviors between individuals of the same sex were not practiced. In fact, such behavior was so common in Japan that documentation of same sex relationships dates back over a thousand years.

During the Edo period, for instance, male-female sexual relations were important to secure offspring and social status; however, male-male sexual relations, particularly amongst the Samurai, were viewed as an intricate part of male socialization. The term “wakashu-do” or “shudo,” literally translated as “the way of the young men,” observes an earlier form of homosexuality that focused on the sexual relationship between a Samurai and his pupil. Such relationships established an unquestionable acceptance of same-sex practices and were not restricted to men.

Women also engaged in bisexual practices although these practices are not as well documented as those of men. During the 16th century, medieval women gained new-found security as wives within virilocal systems, in contrast to the insecurity of Heian-period wives in uxorilocal and wifevisiting arrangements where women were easily abandoned by their spouses. This change was significant because it allowed women to establish more prominent positions within the household through which they were able to exert more influence. In turn, this allowed a kind of sexual liberation for many women.
birth of the pop-idol, fanboys and fangirls:
Courtesans also form the subject of many shunga. Utamaro was particularly revered for his depictions of courtesans, which offered an unmatched level of sensitivity and psychological nuance. Tokugawa courtesans could be described as the celebrities of their day, and Edo's pleasure district, Yoshiwara, is often compared to Hollywood.[5] Men saw them as highly eroticised due to their profession, but at the same time unattainable, since only the wealthiest, most cultured men would have any chance of sexual relations with one. Women saw them as distant, glamorous idols, and the fashions for the whole of Japan were inspired by the fashions of the courtesan. For these reasons the fetish of the courtesan appealed to many.[2]

birth of the host and hostess clubs (lol, ouran host club?):
Young kabuki actors often worked as prostitutes off-stage, and were celebrated in much the same way as modern media stars are today, being much sought after by wealthy patrons, who would vie with each other to purchase their favours.[6] Onnagata (female-role) and wakashū-gata (adolescent boy-role) actors in particular were the subject of much appreciation by both male and female patrons,[7] and figured largely in nanshoku shunga prints and other works celebrating nanshoku, which occasionally attained best-seller status.[8]

birth of the bishies, traps/crossdressers, yaoi harems, yuri harems, and reverse-harems:
Nanshoku was not considered incompatible with heterosexuality; books of erotic prints dedicated to nanshoku often presented erotic images of both young women (concubines, mekake, or prostitutes, jōrō) as well as attractive adolescent boys (wakashū) and cross-dressing youths (onnagata). Indeed, several works suggest that the most "envious" situation would be to have both many jōrō and many wakashū.[10]

Likewise, women were considered to be particularly attracted to both wakashū and onnagata, and it was assumed that these young men would reciprocate that interest.[10] Therefore, both the typical practitioners of nanshoku and the young men they desired would be considered bisexual in modern terminology.[11]

on yaoi (pre-Edo)
One famous scroll, dated to 1321, is known as the Chigo no soshi or "Chigo notebook" and concerns the relationship between an old abbot and his young acolyte.
Spoiler for explicit description -- don't click, seriously!:
on yuri:
Spoiler for explicit description:

on Edo's end:
During the Meiji period (1868-1912) Japan turned towards the west in an effort to modernize. This meant that aspects of Japanese culture deemed "uncivilized" by the censorious Victorian gaze had to be disposed of. Sexually explicit art in general and homosexual representations in particular went underground. Even the phallic stones that had guarded shrine entrances for generations were hidden away or, in many cases, destroyed.
This was when they also banned mixed gender bath houses, which was the norm up until then.

but parts of that past did survive in the 1500 year old Japanese Fertility Festival


it's charming and hilarious it is to see such penis and vagina shaped souvenirs, toys, and snacks used so casually and festively

Rub for good luck and children too

wow.. I got carried away there the quote spam

Last edited by 4Tran; 2009-09-04 at 00:29. Reason: Sorry, explicit art is not allowed, not even in a spoiler tag.
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Old 2009-09-02, 20:03   Link #146
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: USA
Women in anime and western cartoons tend to be very sexualized, unfortunately.
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