2011-02-28, 05:14 | Link #22041 | ||
The True Culprit
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I'm just not conceding that Battler represents Ryukishi here; Battler is being used to represent the opposite extreme; Erika brought up earlier that love can keep things from being seen, but this has never really been demonstrated until now. Ange is being given the options of seeing the truth at the expense of love, seeing love at the expense of truth, or holding onto both (which is subtly implied is the option she chooses in the good ending, considering how you interpret that diary thing). I'm rather fond of the idea that Ange wrote EP8; Hachijou certainly didn't. If she did write it, and Battler is being used to represent her idealism and naivete, then it goes a long way to excuse Meta-Battler's actions.
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2011-02-28, 08:18 | Link #22042 | ||||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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In this case we are talking about one person trying to know something not pushing the truth onto others. That being said Battler's answer was questionable in its core in my opinion, regardless of the situation. Quote:
I can acknowledge that that Erika represents one side of Ange, and specifically her side that wants to know the truth at all costs. But that was still depicted as evil, especially in the "bad end" when that side transforms her into a cold blooded killer. Quote:
Which brings us to the next point: Quote:
What I don't agree with is the idea this is just some stuff a character made in a story. The themes of "learning the truth is meaningless" and of "there are things more important than the truth" are too pervasive and too much widespread. In my opinion this is a clear message from Ryuukishi, this is what he wanted to convey in the final chapter of Umineko, especially considering how in the end he creates the situation where the reader is made to choose between "truth" and "magic". Quote:
You don't seem to understand the fact that Battler isn't talking about a particular truth, but truths in general, I think I made a point on that, and proved it with facts. Quote:
That kind of reasoning is absolutely worthless because it treats knowledge from a mere materialistic standpoint. What kind of logic is that? If it doesn't provide some kind of use in your everyday life then it's worthless? It's meaningless? What kind of use playing Umineko has in my everyday life? Would my life be totally different if I didn't play it? And I could say the same for music, books, movies. So does that mean that all of those things are worthless just because they have no practical use in my everyday life? This kind of logic is absolutely abhorrent.
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2011-02-28, 09:16 | Link #22043 | ||
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Is knowing the truth behind a set of fictional murders of any use to you? Even if it would be real murders would it have any meaning?! Knowledge is something material when you consider it from a certain position. I think Battler's reasoning isn't wrong, it's just terribly controlling. It appears abhorrent to us, because it basically implies that we have no reason to have as much knowledge as he has. It's like a parent saying "You don't have to know that yet", which is driving a child crazy. And a much more important topic is something that AuraTwilight already mentioned: Quote:
Jan-Poo, you say you're doing a meta-analysis looking at what the author wants to tell us in the end...but by just looking at Battler's action towards Ange, I think you're limiting the scope of what is actually happening. It's pretty important that Battler's actions are futile and in the end Ange still learns the truth. Yet (in the good end) she decides to love and embrace the memories of her family despite knowing about the truth. Neither Battler's nor Erika's approach were portrayed as the right one's during that Episode, at least I never considered them to be. Battler had too much love and became blind towards the fact that people have a natural urge to know. You cannot keep somebody from knowing and developing in a way you want, while forcing them down a given path (Battler = Kinzô metaphor again). Erika had no love at all and just existed to know the truth. But that truth never had any particular value for her in the first place, because wether it was the one solution or the other, she didn't care. Discarding all love for pure truth doesn't take you anywhere either, because you end up alone. |
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2011-02-28, 12:36 | Link #22044 | |||
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1) Ange should live her life in a particular way; 2) I am free to withhold or manipulate information if necessary to advance this conclusion to her, rather than giving her the information and encouraging her to choose my perspective freely; and 3) screw anyone other than Ange, because I don't care what they want. Of course this is Meta-Battler, not Tohya himself, so that's a little thornier. I'm not saying Tohya/Battler himself is committing evil, or that any "real person" ever did. Anyway, Battler is being intensely selfish. Whether Battler is well-intentioned or not in wanting to protect Ange from something he feels might cause her to make bad life decisions, who the hell does he think he is to decide that? The only person who has any right to decide how she ought to live her life is Ange herself. What happened to her is terrible. Learning what happened to her family might be equally terrible, or worse. But hold the phone. Ange has lived the last twelve years of her life in crippling agony over NOT KNOWING WHAT HAPPENED. Not knowing what happened destroyed her relationship with the one person left to care for her. Not knowing what happened left her defenseless against the torments of her schoolmates. Not knowing what happened left her depressed over her inability to apologize to Maria. Not knowing what happened prevented her from maturing in time to be able to assume responsibilities and avoid being used as a pawn in a game which could very well have killed her (at least, in her mind). So it was justifiable to inflict suffering on Ange, and hurt her deeply, but it's not justifiable to tell her the truth, because it would make her suffer. She's suffering now. The real magic is that she can move on with her life after all this messing around, and that shows remarkable strength on her part. But it's not morally justifiable to say "I want to prevent Ange from suffering" when the action taken to do this causes her to suffer. I have my doubts that this can all come down to a lesser of evils calculus, especially given Ange's apparent ability to handle it when it all comes down to it. So then why did Battler take this position? Well, either he's a hypocrite, or he has an agenda. Disguising the truth is not a moral move, but a political one. He wants Ange to think a particular way and live a particular way. Some see this as the loving act of a doting brother. But some are going to see this as intensely creepy and borderline sociopathic emotional manipulation. If Battler truly cared about doing the right thing, he'd either take a neutral stance or be truth-positive. Quote:
You seem to forget Gohda, Kumasawa, Nanjo, and Genji exist. That's understandable; Battler forgot them too. That's part of where this moral calculus becomes selfish personal ends. That's where this whole morality play collapses. As far as we know, Gohda is an innocent man. Gohda's mom has a right to know why her son - an innocent man - died and what he died for; it is not immoral for her to seek the truth and it is, in fact, a moral imperative for anyone who knows anything to tell her. Likewise, if what we've seen of Dr. Nanjo is true, he is not a criminal. His son believes to the contrary, or at least believes - based on real physical evidence he has personally seen - that something shady was going on, and that his father was involved. Nanjo's son deserves to know that his father was not a criminal. You can tell the thought of that hurts him deeply when he describes it to Ange. He doesn't even want to think about it. He is suffering, just like Ange, from not knowing the truth. Unlike Ange, no gentle lie will fix him; he's seen "proof" of something untoward. Only the truth will free him from that pain. So long as even one person would benefit from the truth, and arguably even if no one will benefit, it is morally right to be of the position that it should be known, and is at best intensely selfish and at worst outright evil to argue that the truth should be kept unknown for one's own personal agenda. You can argue that withholding knowledge is sometimes a good thing, but revealing knowledge is in my consideration never a bad thing, so it always trumps that morally. And yes, I struggle with this perspective in my occupation, but law is a bit more open (at least in the United States) than you might think.
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2011-02-28, 13:38 | Link #22045 | |||
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Of course what Battler did was wrong, but both his way of concealing the truth and Erika's/Bern's way of heartlessly ripping it out is what hurts Ange. She has to find her own way to deal with the truth and no imposed solution will help her find any peace. But Battler is still the son of a highly patriarchical family. Like Kinzô he saw it as his duty to govern everything concerning the house of Ushiromiya and in his blind goodwill he saw it in his power to do the best for his "little sister" (who wasn't as little anymore). What Battler did might have been right for the 6 year old Ange of 1986, but he seemed to have forgotten that Ange would someday grow up and ask for the "adult truth". Like Kinzô decided over Bearice and his children and like the adults decided over their children, Battler is repeating the very same mistake in his 8th game by wanting to govern Ange's life. Quote:
Even though they are not furniture, they are still a part of the Ushiromiya family. They might not be blood-related but they are still a part of the house of Ushiromiya, considering that it is a very traditional family in Japan, which has it's roots deep in the pre-war era. Nanjo is the only person that can actually be argued about, because he is only a friend to Kinzô and not really a part of the household. But does Nanjo's son actually deserve to know? Is there a natural law that gives us the right to obtain truth about those who we are related to? Quote:
Moral isn't something that exists naturally, it is something that's constructed by society and thus moral values change depending on the context they are seen in. I would actually change the stress of your sentence: "revealing knowledge is in my consideration never a bad thing". You yourself consider it to be the best option, but if it actually is...I think that is actually open to discussion. Let's take a six year old child like Ange was and you know her relatives brutally slaughtered each other out of greed for money, even her mother cared more about the wealth than her own daughter and that's why that girl is alone...would you tell her that?! |
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2011-02-28, 13:45 | Link #22046 | ||
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But if you're so concerned about her ability to comprehend the truth at that age, there is always the option of not telling her right away, with the promise to her that you will tell her when she's "old enough to understand." At least that way she knows that she will one day know the truth. This is a "truth-neutral" stance, where you are not opposed to her finding out on her own (or under specific circumstances), but are not actively engaged in revelation at the immediate moment.
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2011-02-28, 14:09 | Link #22047 | |||||||||||
The True Culprit
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Regardless is "Only the truth matters" and "The truth is the most important thing" really different enough to split hairs over it? You get what I mean. Quote:
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While the idea is widespread, so is it's opposite, and it's never really conclusively answered. Both viewpoints are sympathetic. And, well, as already said, it seems implied that Ange seemed to have a look at Eva's diary (assuming that wasn't all meta), so she would just be adding her interpretation to the information she got instead of "lol lalala plugging my ears." Quote:
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Also, no one needs to know what's inside my nose, right? HERP. Quote:
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2011-02-28, 14:17 | Link #22048 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Maybe there's stuff later in the story that would change my opinion, but did everyone just sort of forget that Ange had already decided what the "truth" was and planned to kill herself after visiting Rokkenjima?
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2011-02-28, 14:49 | Link #22049 | |
Senior Member
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I would go so far and say that all of Chiru is perceived more or less from a perspective similar to Ange. We are not given insight information anymore, we are given interpretations of what might have been if the scenario would have changed towards a certain extent. Nothing in Chiru actually ever happened, it's a mind game performed by people on the outside. And thus Battler (as in Ange's brother who was on Rokkenjima in 1986) never actually wrote Episode 8 or had any part in concealing any truth from Ange. For me it appeared like all of Episode 8 (probably all of Chiru if we believe Featherine's words) happened while Ange was standing at the edge of that building and was thinking wether to jump or not. She fought with several possibilities and among them the two strongest were her love for her family that she wanted to keep (symbolized by Battler) and her quest for absolut truth (symbolized by Bern and Erika). Wasn't it even said that there was no way she would have survived the jump and the mere thought of it was ludicrous?! Well, nothing in the normal arcs happened either, but it were at least probable events, while Chiru used improbable events to prove something through a reverse argument. |
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2011-02-28, 15:45 | Link #22050 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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So, even if she could learn the truth, she would never be able to understand the truth. As for the ending choice, it wasn't a choice between 'truth' or 'magic.' It was a choice between 'Magic' or 'Sleight of Hand.' The difference seems to me to be that Ange knew the truth anyways. I think we ALL knew the truth. The choice was about how you can pretend that something exists where it doesn't in order to create. Like for example watching a story played out by shadow puppets. A really interesting play is going on but even though we know that it's really two hands crunched together, we point to the shadow and say it's a 'rabbit.' Not because it IS a rabbit, but because the storyteller intended for us to perceive it as such. Are we running away from the truth? No. If you look at what happened to Ange afterwards on the 'sleight-of-hand' choice, I think it becomes apparent. She became completely pragmatic. Kill or be killed. Even the captain too because even if he MIGHT have been innocent, well, he MIGHT not be so shoot him too. As opposed to the 'Magic' end where Ange becomes an author who writes children's stories. Clearly Sakutarou is fake, so why bother? Well, she can use it to write stories to bring ideas to other people, especially kids. So, I think the choice at the end is really about whether you are willing to suspend your disbelief or not. (Technically speaking it was a Meta-World choice so... the theme kinda fits.) |
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2011-02-28, 15:50 | Link #22051 | |||
The True Culprit
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Battler was trying to change her mind on this, but he didn't seem to have any better ideas except deception. But he has a personal investment in her. It's not like he's a politician trying to control Ange's life for personal benefit; he's a big brother who promised like four episodes ago that his reason for fighting was to give Ange a happy future. And...she's not exactly making that easy for him when she goes "lol hamburgers" at the slightest bit of stress. Quote:
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2011-02-28, 15:57 | Link #22052 | |
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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No one else in the world has the right to know about it since I nor my family are public figures. Especially not a bunch of people more interested in the gossip than anything else. Ok, however, the Ushiromiya family were potentially involved in a murder scenario. Maybe that's a bit different. But even if I were the only person who knew what happened and I claimed that there was no murder, only a terrible accident.... then on top of that no evidence was found for murder... what right does anyone else have to pry into other matters and use it as a point of gossip about how someone COULD have committed murder? Actually, this kinda fits in well with why Beatrice apologized to Ange for writing those two message bottles and stirring up trouble for her. I mean, ok, if you want to keep a secret, don't write lurid conspiracy theories about mass murder and ritualistic sacrifices. 8) (I guess Beatrice intended to stoke the flames of speculation as her way of becoming a witch... heh) |
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2011-02-28, 16:33 | Link #22053 | ||
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Which do you respect more: The politician who holds a press conference to announce he's been corrupted by power and is stepping down, or the one who only steps down because the newspaper found out about his corruption? Both are undeniably corrupt, and both should resign; yet clearly, you think better of the first one, even if his actions are no different. And in ten years, neither one will be remembered. Quote:
Besides, are we forgetting that if there was a crime (and maybe there was not), someone is guilty of that crime? Let's feel bad for the potential pain dealt to the good, yes, but why are we not willing to punish the evil? If the Rokkenjima incident was a murder, don't we deserve to know who that murderer was? It's not fair to everyone involved otherwise. Gohda's name deserves to be clean as much as Kyrie's (or George's, or Yasu's, or Battler's , or nobody's) deserves to be called out for their crime. There is actually a valid justice-based motive to unveiling what occurred.
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2011-02-28, 17:03 | Link #22054 | |||
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To a certain extent I would agree, the Meta-World is real, but I would construct the effects a bit differently. Instead of saying that Ange went on in time and all the later "Anges" were downloaded into the "Roof-Ange" again, I would say that time stopped for Ange from the moment that Bernkastel appeared before her. Through her inner struggle she tapped into the Meta-World and became disconnected from time and space. Like Featherine said, to a witch even 2 weeks can become an eternity of 100 years (which was also a clear reference to the struggle in Higurashi I think). Quote:
Spoiler for Higurashi Rei:
There might be a Kakera where the lost child became Ushiromiya Lion and lived happily ever after with his relatives, but for that to be the truth of that 1998's past he would still have to die in 1986 with all the others. EDIT: Quote:
Tell a gay man he should just make his sexuality public, even though he lives in a highly religious smalltown in the US. Okay, in the best case scenario he is accepted and all his worries are cleared...but he could just as well be killed in a hate crime the very same night. Would death be alright in this case, because it came as a result of a reaction towards truth?! The same would happen if it would be made public that the family of a child is responsible for a mass murder (and it's indicated in Ange's reaction to the diary that it is at least partly true) and maybe even further crimes like incest, abduction, maltreatment of minors. How would you think would that child be treated? You saw how the people treated Ange and Eva even though they weren't sure...do you actually think they would treat them better because they know it is true?! Of course Ange has no part in that murder, but the idea of hereditary evil is still too strongly rooted in people's minds. How often have I met people who didn't want to associate with someone because of something their parents did. You can take another example of the past...in many parts of the US Germans are still viewed with a certain kind of distrust, even though most of those Germans had no part in the Nazi regime anymore, still the fear of inherent evil is stronger than any logic. Of course it was wrong to keep the truth about Rokkenjima from those who lost someone in that tragedy. But I can understand why someone would keep it from the public, because it doesn't make anything better...in the best case scenario people loose interest and forget it altogether. Last edited by haguruma; 2011-02-28 at 17:18. |
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2011-02-28, 17:08 | Link #22055 | ||
The True Culprit
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2011-02-28, 17:11 | Link #22056 | ||||
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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As for gossip, if it's gossip that misses the mark, or if the truth is actually less exciting than the lie, then exposing the truth may not be as useful... Quote:
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Even though I'd say it was preferable to know the truth... well, I probably wouldn't have let that early-EP8 Ange (the one that screamed and bitched about how anything but the worst possible interpretation was a fantasy) know the truth anyways. You just kinda saw she didn't have the capacity to judge what happened properly. You know how sometimes you meet the ultimate pessimist... or just as bad, the ultimate optimist... the facts get twisted to fit their ideas and aren't evaluated for the facts themselves. Like during the stock market bull years or the bear years... Quote:
When that happened, I tend to agree that it would've made it easier on Eva if she came out and told what she knew since we now kinda think she probably wasn't guilty of anything. And prepared Ange for it too... |
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2011-02-28, 17:11 | Link #22057 |
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I don't even think that's really reasonable, but the detachment and referential nature of the meta-world means it could have metaphorically happened that Ange turned over her thoughts and life in an instant eternity, and made a decision in a split-second not to jump.
Of course, a realist will say that she didn't actually do anything of the sort, and that she merely subconsciously decided against jumping at the last second, perhaps due to an unresolved desire or a sudden insight. But ultimately it's the same thing in result, so...
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2011-02-28, 18:41 | Link #22059 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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If you've thought of scenarios that you think work, please, by all means share them, but I can't imagine any. Unless it's the World War III/world peace thing and I don't buy that at all. To write his way out of this one he's going to have to excuse Battler's behavior without making him look like he's making excuses. At least selfish ones. Can he do that? I dunno anymore
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2011-02-28, 18:51 | Link #22060 |
The True Culprit
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Well, aside from those sorts of things like the WW3 thing, and funny things like Mecha-Kuwadorian, and from things like "Meta-Battler-as-Ange's-And/or-Amnesiac-Battler's-Mind cannot tell her things she doesn't already know"...
What if, assuming the Meta-World is real, everyone can only survive there if the truth is let out? In the end Battler, Beatrice and the rest live happily ever after in a metaphysical plane, but what if the truth that they died destroys that? What if Battler THINKS that? It could very much be like those Dream Apocalypse stories where an imaginary friend tries to keep a character from waking up and whatnot.
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