Character discussion - Maria

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Pieces are unable to act outside of their character; in other words, we can take the characterizations of everyone on the island as factual. If you're going to insist that Maria is knowingly implicit in the murderers, you're tantamount to saying she's aware that these murders aren't being done by Beatrice, which pretty much unravels every single piece of character development she's ever been given.

In other words, it's loveless and antithetical to the information we've been given. The only way Maria can be involved is if she is witlessly, unknowingly helping the murderer without being aware of the real consequences of her actions, which is consistent with her presented behavior of innocently reading threatening letters and the like.

Maria has though fervently protected the notion that magic exists and will do everything in her power to try to convince people of it. Magic cannot exist unless someone sees it at such, so she forces people to believe in it with closed rooms and the like.

I know this is meta and isn't written in the EPs so far, but the Stakes have the names and sins attributed by them by a certain witch hunter. That certain witch hunter states that a girl could not be a witch if she was younger than 12... but of course this law shouldn't be strict, if the child is precocious enough and proves that she's a witch...

[AuraTwilight]

Maria has though fervently protected the notion that magic exists and will do everything in her power to try to convince people of it. Magic cannot exist unless someone sees it at such, so she forces people to believe in it with closed rooms and the like.

Maria's characterization, and general physical ability, does not include the ability to perform or orchestrate murders. She's no Stewie Griffin or anything, and she acts as basically one big ass red herring that you guys are just falling for simply because of surface eeriness. The fact of the matter is that despite her behavior, Maria is presented as a reasonably kind-hearted individual who doesn't condone or tolerate people being mean. The only reason she puts up with the murders on Rokkenjima is because she thinks Beatrice will revive them in the Golden Land; if she's orchestrating them herself, then this can't hold.

I know this is meta and isn't written in the EPs so far, but the Stakes have the names and sins attributed by them by a certain witch hunter. That certain witch hunter states that a girl could not be a witch if she was younger than 12... but of course this law shouldn't be strict, if the child is precocious enough and proves that she's a witch...

The same witch hunter also said that one became a witch through sexual consort with demons, so...yea. I wouldn't really pay any mind to anything that's not included in the actual novel, or else that leads us to the slippery slope of trying to solve the mystery with Mystery Rules that were excluded and the like.

Besides, Beatrice herself is the one who keeps priding herself on the closed rooms she creates. Is she just plagiarizing Maria? :P Some friend.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Try to find a reason as to why Beatrice would take credit for the actions of a human even though the evidence points to the human. To the point that she would challenge anyone and risk her own life to defend that person.

Re-read episode two, theres one clear place where she could have thrown her friend under the bus and took a nasty hit for it.

Also Im not convinced by her eeriness, Im convinced by her actions. All of the times a hidden letter pops up she's a possible candidate as the person who dropped it. Dont ask yourself who dropped it though, ask yourself WHY the person dropped it. It always comes up as a sheep and wolf puzzle of separating people that have holed up in a place. In EP3 it wasn't a letter, she personally led Rosa out of the house by throwing a tantrum of which she got over after Rosa agreed to check on the flower.

[AuraTwilight]

Try to find a reason as to why Beatrice would take credit for the actions of a human even though the evidence points to the human. To the point that she would challenge anyone and risk her own life to defend that person.

Re-read episode two, theres one clear place where she could have thrown her friend under the bus and took a nasty hit for it.

That's not what I meant, and the last point was clearly in jest, but whatever.

Also Im not convinced by her eeriness, Im convinced by her actions. All of the times a hidden letter pops up she's a possible candidate as the person who dropped it. Dont ask yourself who dropped it though, ask yourself WHY the person dropped it. It always comes up as a sheep and wolf puzzle of separating people that have holed up in a place. In EP3 it wasn't a letter, she personally led Rosa out of the house by throwing a tantrum of which she got over after Rosa agreed to check on the flower.

Pfft, so what? Telling a nine year old girl to put a letter with a magic seal in it is one thing. Having that nine year old girl personally and deliberately orchestrate mass murder is different.

As for the rose thing, doesn't she pretty much do that in every universe regardless of circumstances? I hardly see how that's evidence of anything.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

That's not what I meant, and the last point was clearly in jest, but whatever.



Pfft, so what? Telling a nine year old girl to put a letter with a magic seal in it is one thing. Having that nine year old girl personally and deliberately orchestrate mass murder is different.

As for the rose thing, doesn't she pretty much do that in every universe regardless of circumstances? I hardly see how that's evidence of anything.

Again, do not discard the probability of a person being the culprit because of age or gender. From the start the writer is trying to one up a lot of the classic mystery novels. He describes the sheer number of victims being higher than just about all of em, who's to say he's not trying to one up the age of the culprit as well?

Between you and me, I find a lot of similarities between Maria and Josephine!

[AuraTwilight]

I'm not discrediting her because of age or gender, I'm discrediting her because of her personality and belief system, which is only bolstered by the fact that despite her eccentric qualities, is still a fairly stereotypical nine year old child. That, and Maria was shown as a totally obvious "suspect" in the earlier arcs, and then was deconstructed to show us how harmless and victimized she actually is, instead of being a little antichrist. To reveal her as the culprit would not only be hack writing, but also completely trivialize and moot like....well, fuck, atleast half of Episode 4, atleast.

It's not "one upping" classic mystery novels to have a bigger shock twist. If it doesn't give a satisfying answer to the mysteries, and if it doesn't fit the characterization without invoking a "everything you learned about this character is a lie", then it's just a bullshit twist ending.

That, and Maria is with Battler at nearly all times, so if she's the "culprit", she somehow coerced someone else into killing for her. Who would possibly give into the demands of a nine year old? Make her as big of an evil genius as you want, but she has no power to coerce anyone into doing anything.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I'm not discrediting her because of age or gender, I'm discrediting her because of her personality and belief system, which is only bolstered by the fact that despite her eccentric qualities, is still a fairly stereotypical nine year old child. That, and Maria was shown as a totally obvious "suspect" in the earlier arcs, and then was deconstructed to show us how harmless and victimized she actually is, instead of being a little antichrist. To reveal her as the culprit would not only be hack writing, but also completely trivialize and moot like....well, fuck, atleast half of Episode 4, atleast.

It's not "one upping" classic mystery novels to have a bigger shock twist. If it doesn't give a satisfying answer to the mysteries, and if it doesn't fit the characterization without invoking a "everything you learned about this character is a lie", then it's just a bullshit twist ending.

That, and Maria is with Battler at nearly all times, so if she's the "culprit", she somehow coerced someone else into killing for her. Who would possibly give into the demands of a nine year old? Make her as big of an evil genius as you want, but she has no power to coerce anyone into doing anything.

Hohoho! Now you are getting some of the things I've been trying to pull from you. Who controls the four first game? Why would she have Maria and the servants survive for the better part of the first 2 games just to have them suddenly 'killed' outright in the 3rd game? Whats changed between the moment that Beatrice protects Maria by withholding a red truth that would have crushed Battler in the second game to the moment where she declared that the key never left her person in the 4th games climax? Why would she want people to solve the epitaph if she doesn't gain anything from it? What is Beatrice's roll throughout all of the games, if she doesn't exist? Why would she take someone else sin upon her?

Also regarding her ability to control people, all she needs is the headship. The furniture in this game has been shown to be quite loyal to the head. But I admit, its the biggest hurdle to my theory, thats why I stated thats she's either the culprit or an accomplice.

e- Also didn't episode 4 have Maria ripping her mother to pieces during a flash back? Or are you disregarding that because the detective didn't witness it? Come on now pseudo detective, dont pick your truths when its convenient! Im willing to change my 'truth' so long as newer ones are brought up. Im even willing to accept them altogether provided that theres enough evidence!

[AuraTwilight]

Hohoho! Now you are getting some of the things I've been trying to pull from you. Who controls the four first game? Why would she have Maria and the servants survive for the better part of the first 2 games just to have them suddenly 'killed' outright in the 3rd game? Whats changed between the moment that Beatrice protects Maria by withholding a red truth that would have crushed Battler in the second game to the moment where she declared that the key never left her person in the 4th games climax? Why would she want people to solve the epitaph if she doesn't gain anything from it? What is Beatrice's roll throughout all of the games, if she doesn't exist? Why would she take someone else sin upon her?

To answer in order: Beatrice; EP3 had the narrative of Eva-Beato hijacking everything; There is not necessarily a meaningful difference; Beato wants someone to inherit the gold instead of her because her true identity is furniture, and her characterization is that of someone who gambles and accepts any result even if it hurts her; Beato as a person exists, she's just not a blonde busty witch; Beatrice is a martyr who is villainizing herself so Battler hates her instead of his family, noblizing them as tragic heroes.

Also regarding her ability to control people, all she needs is the headship. The furniture in this game has been shown to be quite loyal to the head. But I admit, its the biggest hurdle to my theory, thats why I stated thats she's either the culprit or an accomplice.

I can accept her as an unwitting accomplice that doesn't know she's just helping a serial killer instead of a witch, but as the culprit, no way. For one thing, Maria's definitely never solved the Epitaph; else not only would she not interpret it so literally, but she most certainly would've given some of the gold to Rosa so she could be around more.

e- Also didn't episode 4 have Maria ripping her mother to pieces during a flash back? Or are you disregarding that because the detective didn't witness it? Come on now pseudo detective, dont pick your truths when its convenient! Im willing to change my 'truth' so long as newer ones are brought up. Im even willing to accept them altogether provided that theres enough evidence!

That sequence was a dream she had shortly after Sakutarou's destruction. It's not at all uncommon for children to have violent revenge fantasies when they have no other means of lashing out; this doesn't at all translate to actual homicidal feelings they'd actually carry out.

Child Psychology 101, fuck yeah. But anyway, that one instance is contradicted by multiple OTHER scenes, which are CHRONOLOGICALLY MORE RECENT, wherein Maria instead wants Rosa's love and keeps blaming her abuse on a Bad Witch. Fuck, in the same scene you're talking about, she even says, "you're just the Black Witch torturing Mama and me!"

So...you don't really have a case, there. Bipartisan Splitting of Parental Figures; more child psychology.

There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Maria is anything more than a nine year old girl with emotional underdevelopment and special needs. She's not Stewie Griffin.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

To answer in order: Beatrice; EP3 had the narrative of Eva-Beato hijacking everything; There is not necessarily a meaningful difference; Beato wants someone to inherit the gold instead of her because her true identity is furniture, and her characterization is that of someone who gambles and accepts any result even if it hurts her; Beato as a person exists, she's just not a blonde busty witch; Beatrice is a martyr who is villainizing herself so Battler hates her instead of his family, noblizing them as tragic heroes.

I'll tell you my version of the truth, this truth hasn't be discussed in any of the previous games and following the basic formula of detective novels, it could be the final twist in the story.

Beatrice is protecting someone, she's protecting the culprit. The culprit is Maria. Beatrice might have a human counter part, this counterpart might be furniture, this counterpart is also protecting/serving Maria. Beatrice's actions in the second game regarding the Key in Maria's possession is proof, she could have used the red truth to say that the key never left Maria's possession during that scene but it would have made it obvious that Maria was at the very least an accomplice. So she weathered the blow and marched on.

Beatrice becomes aware that Maria is the only person to survive the completion of the last two games, if the reader believes that Knox's and Dyne's laws apply to the game (foreshadow at the intro of the second game), then he can solve the whodunnit right there. Episode 3 has the servants and Rosa, Maria dying off early in the game. This puts that theory to doubt. Beatrice Answers in red that Rosa and Maria died and ronove states they where killed by others. I propose that Maria's 'death' is reversible (clinical death) do to the nature of her 'murder' and because at the time that the red is used she said DIED and not DEAD (as in at the time of that the red was uttered she might be alive again). Her 'corpse' is later moved inside a room where its 'sealed'. The events where the doors and windows are locked after a person apparently moves out of the guess house could be explained with Maria re-locking them to make them appear as closed rooms.

I can actually go about and solve the rest of the third game using this thread of logic. I can also use similar logic to solve the rest of the games but Im too tired to keep going. Whether or not Im wright or wrong will be revealed in ep8. Which quite frankly I cant wait for.

[UsagiTenpura]

In arc 4 Ange considers that her own "sin" to Maria is as much a part of why this is all occuring as Battler's sin toward Beato.
A normal nine years old, no matter how much they are depraved of attention, would be horrified and scared by having people die around them (Maria constantly laughed very loudly even at others' misery). The scene at the end of arc 1 with Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo's death, that's not how a normal child reacts, not even close to.
Now I'm not saying she's the culprit, but she's certainly not unrelated to everything.

[AuraTwilight]

Beatrice is protecting someone, she's protecting the culprit. The culprit is Maria. Beatrice might have a human counter part, this counterpart might be furniture, this counterpart is also protecting/serving Maria. Beatrice's actions in the second game regarding the Key in Maria's possession is proof, she could have used the red truth to say that the key never left Maria's possession during that scene but it would have made it obvious that Maria was at the very least an accomplice. So she weathered the blow and marched on.

This motive doesn't make any kind of sense given Beatrice's characterization in episodes 5 and onwards; while Maria is an "existence that Beatrice refuses to sully or diminish", Maria's character doesn't change even when Beatrice isn't the Gamemaster. Were Lambdadelta and Bernkastel protecting Maria, too? Moreover, what does that have to do with "Battler's Sin" being the cause of all the murders? Maria's effectively never met Battler before, since she didn't remember him from when she was three.

Maria being the culprit doesn't explain anything; it only raises further questions that would require cartoony answers.

Beatrice becomes aware that Maria is the only person to survive the completion of the last two games, if the reader believes that Knox's and Dyne's laws apply to the game (foreshadow at the intro of the second game), then he can solve the whodunnit right there. Episode 3 has the servants and Rosa, Maria dying off early in the game. This puts that theory to doubt. Beatrice Answers in red that Rosa and Maria died and ronove states they where killed by others. I propose that Maria's 'death' is reversible (clinical death) do to the nature of her 'murder' and because at the time that the red is used she said DIED and not DEAD (as in at the time of that the red was uttered she might be alive again). Her 'corpse' is later moved inside a room where its 'sealed'. The events where the doors and windows are locked after a person apparently moves out of the guess house could be explained with Maria re-locking them to make them appear as closed rooms.

That's some of the worst logic I've ever seen. It basically boils down to "Let me just ignore these Reds with a workaround and then speculate up this entire chain of events that isn't even the slightest bit alluded to in the vaguest sense." It's the same intellectual cheapery as Purupurupikoman, the only difference is you're using an introduced character instead of Cheesy Villain X with Convenient Plot Powers Y and Super Genius Gadgets Z.

Also, Maria's jawbone, lolololol.

In arc 4 Ange considers that her own "sin" to Maria is as much a part of why this is all occuring as Battler's sin toward Beato.
A normal nine years old, no matter how much they are depraved of attention, would be horrified and scared by having people die around them (Maria constantly laughed very loudly even at others' misery). The scene at the end of arc 1 with Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo's death, that's not how a normal child reacts, not even close to.
Now I'm not saying she's the culprit, but she's certainly not unrelated to everything.

It's worth bearing in mind that since Maria believes that everyone will come right back to life, and she technically never turned around to see the bodies and such, there's no reason for her to be so wigged out.

As for Ange, she makes a lot of wrong assumptions. As much as I love the character, I wouldn't put TOO much stock in what she has to say. All I can think of is that because she hurt Maria's feelings, this lead to Sakutarou's destruction, which lead to Maria's investing her maternal needs in Beatrice, which lead to her being manipulated as a clueless patsy.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Beatrice's actions in the second game regarding the Key in Maria's possession is proof, she could have used the red truth to say that the key never left Maria's possession during that scene but it would have made it obvious that Maria was at the very least an accomplice. So she weathered the blow and marched on.

How does this implicate Maria at all? The argument they had wasn't about Maria it was about the envelope in her handbag. His theory was that someone replaced the key with a fake and returned it later before Rosa opened it. Maria wasn't even part of the conversation save for the fact that she would've been tricked by the culprit in his scenario and how Battler's use of the word 'supervision' was too strict to make into a red.

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

I propose that Maria's 'death' is reversible (clinical death) do to the nature of her 'murder' and because at the time that the red is used she said DIED and not DEAD (as in at the time of that the red was uttered she might be alive again). Her 'corpse' is later moved inside a room where its 'sealed'. The events where the doors and windows are locked after a person apparently moves out of the guess house could be explained with Maria re-locking them to make them appear as closed rooms.

There is a red saying 'the 6 people Died instantly'. If 'Died' implied what you say it means it would have to apply to all of the servants as well not just Rosa and Maria. This episode and the one after it in particular show us that the red truth is time sensitive and it depends on context. The red you're talking about is being used in a past tense context while the word 'dead' was used in present tense.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Judoh

How does this implicate Maria at all? The argument they had wasn't about Maria it was about the envelope in her handbag. His theory was that someone replaced the key with a fake and returned it later before Rosa opened it. Maria wasn't even part of the conversation save for the fact that she would've been tricked by the culprit in his scenario and how Battler's use of the word 'supervision' was too strict to make into a red.



There is a red saying 'the 6 people Died instantly'. If 'Died' implied what you say it means it would have to apply to all of the servants as well not just Rosa and Maria. This episode and the one after it in particular show us that the red truth is time sensitive and it depends on context. The red you're talking about is being used in a past tense context while the word 'dead' was used in present tense.

This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel

Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

Battlers defense after this involved auto locks, people hiding inside the chapel and small bombs. But he never considered that Maria was even there to open or close the door. So either the door was never locked in the first place, in which case we suspect Rosa (taking the red truth literally, it never passed trough any hands to open or close it) or the door was locked and Maria must have opened and/or closed it. (taking the red truth figuratively, as in the door was locked and the key never left her possession)

We could have games where each of the culprit is different, Im fine with that. I just want the games to have the same culprit.

In regards to the died and dead thing, Died is a verb while dead is an adjective. That is the action of the servants dying happened instantly, their status is declared as dead (present) before hand as well. Maria and Rosa on the other hand aren't declared as dead (present) though until much later, we are told that they died. It would be pretty hard to bring back Rosa after getting impaled on a fence, Maria though was given a rather clean death and resuscitation is by no means a super power.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel

Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

Battlers defense after this involved auto locks, people hiding inside the chapel and small bombs. But he never considered that Maria was even there to open or close the door. So either the door was never locked in the first place, in which case we suspect Rosa (taking the red truth literally, it never passed trough any hands to open or close it) or the door was locked and Maria must have opened and/or closed it. (taking the red truth figuratively, as in the door was locked and the key never left her possession)

We could have games where each of the culprit is different, Im fine with that. I just want the games to have the same culprit.

In regards to the died and dead thing, Died is a verb while dead is an adjective. That is the action of the servants dying happened instantly, their status is declared as dead (present) before hand as well. Maria and Rosa on the other hand aren't declared as dead (present) though until much later, we are told that they died. It would be pretty hard to bring back Rosa after getting impaled on a fence, Maria though was given a rather clean death and resuscitation is by no means a super power.

Just because the chapel isn't locked doesn't mean that Rosa would automatically the culprit. Though that's not necessarily a bad thing. Rosa and the rest met with the culprit there if what we saw was right and she interfered for the whole rest of the episode.

As for the Died thing. Well we have a reason to using a verb here because it's in reference to an action. Being killed is an action. Being attacked via the instant definition is one also. It also helps that this is being translated from Japanese so we have other grammar problems here.

Resuscitation isn't impossible, but hiding it for that long wouldn't be an easy feat. And Maria isn't exactly shown to have patience. Murdering Nanjo at the end would also take some extraordinary talents with a gun that Maria just isn't foreshadowed to have either. Loading bullets in episode 2 doesn't count!

She's good at memorizing random bits of information, but so is everyone with an obscure hobby. If her thoughts were concealed I would agree with you, but Maria is pretty much an open book. She's only ever kept one secret from anyone and that's the identity of Beatrice, which would be rendered irrelevant and stupid under this theory of yours.

[AuraTwilight]

Also, there's the possibility that someone just told Maria to open the chapel and then go back to bed none the wiser.

Or that the chapel was never locked in the first place...

[rogerpepitone]

If Maria had locked the chapel door, I doubt the envelope would be sealed when Rosa retrieved the key the next day.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

If Maria had locked the chapel door, I doubt the envelope would be sealed when Rosa retrieved the key the next day.

The envelope could have been resealed if she or someone that was with her had the head's ring.

[Leafsnail]

No matter how much you twist it, there's still "Maria has a perfect alibi for almost every murder" to consider.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

No matter how much you twist it, there's still "Maria has a perfect alibi for almost every murder" to consider.

This could be said of nearly all the characters in this series, in fact, this could be said of nearly all suspects in the entirety of the detective mystery genre.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

This could be said of nearly all the characters in this series, in fact, this could be said of nearly all suspects in the entirety of the detective mystery genre.

No, not very many people stay with the detective for the entire possible timeframe of the murders. It'd be the equivalent of Watson being the culprit.