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Old 2016-07-01, 09:05   Link #1
FFTHEWINNER
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Smile Umineko Playthrough Topic (Progressive spoilers and Discussions)

Hi everyone! very recently discovered this site(via searching for old Umineko topics lol)and quite like how everyone in the threads i read was polite and thoughtful. being a BIG Anime/Visual Novel fan myself,i decided to join

This is my First Ever Playthrough Topic. Thought i'd make one as this is a very cerebral Visual Novel that i wanted to discuss+i didnt want to be spoiled by reading discussions about the whole thing. my thoughts and theories came from logically analyzing and trying to find the hidden clues in the story,given what i currently know. ofcourse many of the theories will be wrong,as great stories dont give you all the keys to solve them until the last few pages to make sure that you dont lose interest. i hope for intelligent and fun discussions about my thoughts with no spoilers

i started this topic a couple of weeks ago on another site,but thought it would be nice to have a version here too,considering the great userbase here(unlike"other places" . wanted to post it in the Umineko Board,but since that board is retired this"General Discussion"board seems the most fitting

i will copy the posts i already made this time as a "Compilation",to get you guys up to speed with my thoughts so far before i start posting normally. i will mention where i reached at the start of each post.all discussions and thoughts are welcome,but please dont spoil me beyond where i reached.

my posts so far:

"I Currently finished EP1+tea parties,and in EP2 reached until Beatrice's physical arrival and discussion with Kanon.

My Thoughts and analyses:

1- Kinzo Is lying to all and actually intends to kill/destroy Beatrice. i reached this conclusion soon after finishing EP1,because:

-Why did he put a strong magic repellant on his door if he actually wants to meet her this badly?
-Why did he put the epitaph in the first place?if he loves her that much,and he hates his family that much,why would he intentionally put something that might lead to his beloved being put to sleep for all eternity(AKA Killed)and for one of his hated family to gain everything?wouln't he prefer his beloved to win?
-why does he scream loudly EVERY.SINGLE.TIME he talks about his love for her?
-Why Didnt he destroy the mirror that was limiting her power?

I Believe the following are the answers:

-Because if she entered his library,she would notice what many of his books are forestroying witches.
-Because,since he knows the answer,he cant solve the riddle himself,but he hopes that someone,anyone,will do it and defeat her.
-because he wants her to hear him from outside his study,as a part of tricking her.
-Because he wants her to be weak.
also remember the comments from genji and nanjo about how he can do genius things that seem dumb to the lesser,uninformed,minds.
the witch's comment about how he"wants to put her in a cage for all eternity"may or may not be a clue. i dont think it is,since i fully believe she was fooled by his act.


2:seems to me like Beatrice is creating a"Groundhog day" scenario for battler,while at the same time having events happen a little differently(like how Maria met Beatrice and received the envelope). company is famous for doing multiple dimensions in their games,and i think that is the case here too.

3:i have two theories about Rosa conceiving Maria. i think one is correct.
A:Rosa intentionally broke up with the maria's father and refused marriage in order for her name to not be removed from the family registry and thus still get her share of the inheritance
B:Rosa was Raped(Possibly in the forest by some witch other than Beatrice,possibly not)and that is how maria was conceived,and her subconscious hates maria because of that,while the other part loves her because she is her daughter anyway.

4:The fact that someone is in cahoots with Beatrice and faked his own death is pretty clear,as the epitaph says that the 10 twilights wont begin until someone found the key. not sure who it is,though i am sure he isnt Krauss/Natsuhi,and i suspect Gohda the most.

5:reason Maria loves Beatrice is,at some point,Beatrice promised her that she is the "good witch" that will free her mother of the"evil witch"(rosa's anger bursts)and take them both to a place where no"evil witches"exist,where she will also meet her dad who loves her.

6:The servants'"i am furniture"talk is to be taken literally. they WERE literal furniture at some point who were turned to humans by Kinzo's/Beatrice's magic. Genji's talk about the"favor that Kinzo did to them and they will spend their whole life serving him as repayment for it" is also a reference to that.

7:If you will ask weather i am" team deny magic or team its magic",both at the same time. After all beatrice done her magic is undoubtful,but it is also undoubtful that whomever found the key is helping her

also,are the tea parties Canon?in the beginning it seemed to me like it was a"behind the scenes"thing where VAs talk about the game,but the end makes it seem canon. if it was canon then why didnt Kanon tell Battler about how he died fighting Beatrice,which means that she definitely exists?"



"another theory:the witch in the portrait is somewhat different from the witch we met. the one in the portrait gives an air of elegance,of high class, while the one we met is the exact opposite. not sure weather she is a relative or simply changed in personality for some reason,but they arent the same."


"reached the point where all the "adults"admit that beatrice is a witch.

-disappointed that kyrie did admit it too,as battler looked up to her and how she thinks a lot. i got a feeling somewhat like"if the teacher fell,what hope does the pupil have?". also,she and natsuhi are the only likeable"adults"in the entire cast lol. funny,considering that neither of them are actually ushiroymia. makes you think that blood has"unlikability"as one of its chromosomes lol >_>.

-a BIG new theory that ties to two older ones: there was a line in ep1 that i didnt fully believe. now it has been repeated in ep2. the line is"Kinzo said he had a mistress named beatrice,who died long ago and is searching for ways to revive her". i am now 90% convinced that this is what happened:

A- Kinzo truly loved the original beatrice,the classy,dignified one drown in the picture

B- Something major happened that caused Beatrice to change into her current evil form. that is how "Kinzo's beatrice died"

C- Kinzo both hates the current beatrice and loves the old one. that explains all my original questions in post 1,as he wants the current beatrice to be weak,both to reduce her danger and to make his chances of success in changing her to the old her(AKA"Reviving"the old her) through his ritual higher."



"Reached after the first"Closed Chapel Discussion duel"ends with Beatrice giving up.

-funnily enough,When the discussion started i immediately thought"there was a duplicate key". when that was refuted i immediately thought"someone took the key then returned it and sealed it again". took battler too long to reach that conclusion lol.

-the"Red Rule"Doesnt make sense. first,Who guarantees that beatrice will uphold it?she could easily put any lie in red. i dont get why battler accepted this rule. also,how can battler see the red words in the first place??! we can because we are reading the story,but for them they are just talking normally,and sound doesnt have colors. my only thought is that beatrice's sound is somewhat different when she says the red stuff. any thoughts guys?(note,i was later convinced by the points another guy made,so no objections on this one now)

-out of the 3 gold blocks,2 are fake. the one on top is the only real one.

- 2 very interesting lines from Nanjo and Kinzo:

Nanjo said"It isnt my turn this night"before leaving the kids gathering. his turn for what?the only way for this line to make sense is for him to know about the murder roulette. which means that he either is the one who"Found the key"or that he somehow knows of the events of the previous death cycle. thus,he suddenly became a strong suspect.

Kinzo Said"I will be prepared for you(beatrice),unlike last time". this means that he either remembers his death in the previous cycle(btw,i actually suspect that he didnt die that time,but that is just a suspicion with no reasoning behind it other than his body not being identifiable by anything other than the six fingers),or that he and beatrice did this before(Most likely with the"Old Beatrice",and for different reasons/consequences than this time)."



"reached after"Kanon"killed kumasawa and nanjo.

-WTF is up with the spider thing?is that some old japanese story that says"Demons fear spiders"or something?(later explained to me)

-Why did he only kill Nanjo and Kumasawa?logic would say to kill them all,yet he only did 3 strikes. this is VERY suspicious.

-so witches can somehow interact with both the dead and the living. interesting.i think this will become a major plot point later on.

-the glossary referred me to "Knox's Ten Commandments". however,i dont think they were that useful,for the very simple reason that there is no proof that this game adheres to them. for example,there is no"Dumb side kick"here,and battler had so many "groundless" intuitions that i find it hard to believe that all of them are false.also,beato's magic is undeniable,which completely contradicts rule 2. thus,i dont think umineko plays by Knox's rules."



"Reached until Kinzo awakes.

-hate the way battler is acting. i didnt expect him to give up that quickly. i know he will rebound,but it still annoys me. rosa has always been bollocks,so her acts dont surprise me.

-would have prefered to have more CG and have the death scenes be actually shown,instead of splaches of red on black. no kid will play this anyway,so why hide it?

-glad to see that some of my old theories are being proven true,like this one:

"The servants'"i am furniture"talk is to be taken literally. they WERE literal furniture at some point who were turned to humans by Kinzo's/Beatrice's magic. Genji's talk about the"favor that Kinzo did to them and they will spend their whole life serving him as repayment for it" is also a reference to that."

after recent events there is no doubt that the servants were magically summoned and turned into humans by kinzo's magic. they are of the same fabric as beatrice's goat servants,only difference is beato's servants are corrupted just like she is,while kinzo's arent.

-the order of events this time was missed up. the big servant got stabbed in the chest before Channon got stabbed in the head,and no one praised beatrice(unless we count battler's sobbing or something). this is very weird.

also,i am pondering something big about the actual relation of the epitaph to beato. that is for later though,as i want to form more thoughts about it first."


"Finished EP2+Both Tea Parties

-The ending sure confused me lol. it seems to delete my "Kinzo vs current beatrice"theory,but that theory has too much evidence behind it for me to simply give up on it. there must be some missing links that we still havent been told yet. maybe Kinzo is waiting for a chance to do something?maybe he has a plan?not sure.

-Battler was eaten yet returned to normal in the tea party. this indicates one of two things.Either
A:She can remake the bodies from their remains like she claims(doubtful) or
B:She can Induce Hallucinations that she chooses upon her victims. this one is more likely,but if the 1st tea party was a hallucination that rosa was having then how come battler appeared and challenged beato?he isnt a magician,so my only explanation is that Beato was inflicting a "Shared Hallucination"upon both of them to make Battler suffer more.

-the phrase on Kanon's "Missing"state that says"What isnt of this world is an illusion. illusions take the forms of things people fear" is quite interesting. this line could be a huge link,and it seems like it is talking about"Fake Kanon",but if we follow that line of thinking to the end we might reach that everything is a hallucination that battler is having and no one is really dying. i reject that option,because that would be the lamest ending possible. the writer of such a great story wouldnt stoop to the"it was all a dream"ending. so that line remains a question mark for now.

-the info about the"7 sisters of hell"makes me believe we will get far more personal with them later. interesting.

-loli tsundere sorceress?lol. guess she will be good comic relief. it is also pretty clear that she will fall for Battler XD. still,i like the ally sorceress. calm and composed always. just hope her"help"will be more than a few advices every time i lose lol. she will be interesting to watch."


Edit:First new thoughts. including it here since no one posted a reply yet lol.
"Reached Until The "mistress discussion".

-what is the name"Beatrice"?it cant be a last name,as the discussion was between friends. no honorifics were used,so no way that last names were used. it seems like"Beatrice"isnt a name but a title. a title that the person who the current"Beatrice"chooses as her(main)apprentice will receive when the current one dies,maybe like "Cesar"Or"Pharaoh". another,more likely,possibility is that,whatever your name was beforehand,it will be completely erased and your name WILL be beatrice if you are chosen as the successor and the current one dies. having that name basically signifies that you are"the one".

-The "previous Beatrice"seems like she was a truly great woman. that might change when we are shown more about here,so i will wait. what concerns me more though is how young"current beato"acted in the scene. there is a complete 180degree contrast between young pure hearted beato who only wanted to fix things and make the world a better place,and current sadistic destructive beato who LOVES the misery of people. this contrast fits nicely into my"Two Beatrices: Old,Good,Kinzo's,Beatrice and Current,evil,beatrice"theory,so that is good . on a side note,seems like,1000years ago,current beatrice was the young princess of some kingdom. interesting.

-i persume what is actually in the forest is a monument of some sort,possibly related to old beatrice."

Last edited by FFTHEWINNER; 2016-07-01 at 10:19.
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Old 2016-07-03, 11:27   Link #2
FFTHEWINNER
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Guys,i posted these to enjoy some nice discussion(with no spoilers)about them lol. please share your thoughts

First new thoughts:

reached until beatrice resigns from the"Boxes and cookies"discussion(lol).

i have been reading some old discussions here about the 1st two episodes(didnt get spoiled,since i only read the official episode 1 and 2 episode topics). thought i'd post some things that stuck to my mind as responses to most of the theories that were offered:

-any reader who finished both episodes and still denies the existence of beatrice the witch(NOT weather or not she was responsible for the killings,but her existence in the first place)is,imo,kidding themselves. even from episode one that much was obvious. otherwise how would battler see the dead and talk to them?how would he see the witch and talk to her?how do you explain berncastel?going into episode two,the simple fact that battler is rewinding the events,being inside them again,breathing again,talking with beatrice about them,etc.denying that beatrice was directly/indirectly responsible for some/most/all of the killings isnt impossible,but denying her entire existence is.

-the beatrice in the game in episode 2 IS the same beatrice the witch,not a fake. it is her"existence inside the game"just like battler has his. this is confirmed in red text,as beato said in red"the key I gave to maria".

-many theories claimed that clearly magical scenes only took place with people who die in the scene being the only ones who see them,thus they are a lie. that statement is false. the candy turned to butterflies then got fixed infront of rosa and rosa didnt die.genji stabbed the golden butterfly and didnt die.even battler saw butterflies in the ending(the claim that he was drunk doesnt work,as the game its self says that he wasnt).
furthermore,some say that the phrase"the witch answered ALL of battler's questions,and explained EVERYTHING to him"means that the"magic scenes"were her explanation,but that contradicts what the phrase its self said. Battler asked about much more than the "how". he asked many,many more questions that we werent shown the answer to. yet the witch answered EVERYTHING. so the magic scenes cant be her answer.
however,i am NOT saying that everything we see is 100% the truth. like battler,i am not proving that X is correct,but that Y isnt correct .

-a ton of people wondered and guessed about the contents of the beatrice letter that natsuhi read. that is weird,because it was clearly stated in-game. natsuhi says"i accept your offer to a duel"and "beatrice,who claims to succeed the head",so it is pretty obvious that the letter contained a challenge for a duel to determine who the next head is and for the honor of the Ushyromiya name.(on a side note,Natsuhi is genuinely the best human in the game,personality wise. her personality is admirable in everyway. it is quite sad how she is treated. she is quite beautiful too,and is clearly smart considering how she manages a ton of things instead of krauss(like we see in her conversations with him)so she is pretty much the total package for a wife lol).

as for thoughts about episode 3 events so far,here are some:

-what is the name"Beatrice"?it cant be a last name,as the discussion was between friends. no honorifics were used,so no way that last names were used. it seems like"Beatrice"isnt a name but a title. a title that the person who the current"Beatrice"chooses as her(main)apprentice will receive when the current one dies,maybe like "Cesar"Or"Pharaoh". another,more likely,possibility is that,whatever your name was beforehand,it will be completely erased and your name WILL be beatrice if you are chosen as the successor and the current one dies. having that name basically signifies that you are"the one".

-The "previous Beatrice"seems like she was a truly great woman. that might change when we are shown more about here,so i will wait. what concerns me more though is how young"current beato"acted in the scene. there is a complete 180degree contrast between young pure hearted beato who only wanted to fix things and make the world a better place,and current sadistic destructive beato who LOVES the misery of people. this contrast fits nicely into my"Two Beatrices: Old,Good,Kinzo's,Beatrice and Current,evil,beatrice"theory,so that is good . on a side note,seems like,1000years ago,current beatrice was the young princess of some kingdom. interesting.

-the"raven evidence"has holes in it. using her example of"2 boxes,one cookie",opening a box and finding it empty would mean that the other box has the cookie IF AND ONLY IF we undoubtedly KNOW that there is one cookie in one of the two boxes. in other words,unless we are told in red that there is a cookie in one of them then there is a good chance that both are empty(or both are full). furthermore,the butler's 2nd example is simply false. proving that you are wise does NOT mean that everyone else is dumb,as other wise people could exist beside you. i find it weird that battler accepted that 2nd example in particular. guess the witch wasnt wrong,he really is incompetent a ton of times >_>.

-i think what is actually in the forest is a monument of some sort,possibly related to old beatrice. furthermore,i have had a hunch for a while,and could be wrong,but here we go:
in magic,there is always a rule that,the stronger you are,the more you lose your humanity. this is doubly so for "demon contract" magic. and a body isnt endless.it ages and dies,but beatrice is endless.
thus,could it be that,in order to attain,her"endless"status,Beatrice had to let go of her humanity and her body?AKA die?and could that"hidden place"be a graveyard to hold her body?
Furthermore,could The reason for the change from "old,good"to"current,bad" be that she went the"black magic"route?and kinzo is apologizing because he was part of the reason she went that route?
like i said,it is just a hunch,but it explains many things. we will see i guess.
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Old 2016-07-06, 10:47   Link #3
chaos_alfa
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You should probably post this in an Umineko game thread which you can find on the Umineko board in the retired section.

[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations
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Old 2016-07-07, 09:24   Link #4
FFTHEWINNER
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
You should probably post this in an Umineko game thread which you can find on the Umineko board in the retired section.

[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations
the problem with that is that i will most likely get spoiled if i post there. even the first post clearly says this:
"If you didn't finish the most recent Episode of the VN, there is a very high chance that you will be spoiled pretty badly as result! Please read the game thread of the last Episode you have read."
even if i didnt read anything before my posts,someone might randomly decide to share his thoughts on the whole game without noticing my posts and this spoil me badly

if i could make topics there i would have made one,but i cant :/

also,i honestly find it quite weird that no one replied. i expected there to be a bit more traffic and interest . i might stop posting if the current situation continues,as i feel like i am talking to myself lol.

for now,here are my new thoughts:

honestly,i think this would have been better if they added dialog choices that lead you to different wrong ends. a big part of the joy of Visual Novels like Kanon and Clannad is the sheer amount of choices availible which really engrossed you. i know that this is a different genre(myster not romance)but i still think some options could have been added(maybe for wrong choices with hints?maybe for giving up?maybe for going on a murdering rampage from frustration lol). heck,i struggle to explain to my friends how this is a"game"even,as there is no interactivity whatsoever >->.

anyway,reached "human beatrice's death".

-"No more than 18 people on THIS rokkenjima"in red=what we already knew is confirmed. there are multiple rokkenjimas through the"different dimensions/worlds/timelineswhatever you call it"that was also in Higurashi. that also means three important things:
--there is more than 18 people in some of the other rokkenjimas/episodes
--the killer/s is/are different each episode
--what happened in each dimension might not have happened in the other ones,so the rosa in this rokkenjima might be the only rosa that encountered beato

-those scenes are incredibly important i think. my theory for them:
Beato"Mixed poison with honey"(old saying,means she mixed the truth with the lies).i think the truth is as follows:
--Kinzo summons"old,good,beatrice"
--Both in them fall in love with each other
--old beatrice's death/suicide. this one i have many theories for. it may be that she suicided because of sadness over something kinzo did(which would explain why kinzo is regretful.i find this one to be the most probable). it may be that she wanted to be human again,but the only way to do that was to kill herself and be reborn. it could be anything really. i could think of many reasons. regardless,that they truly loved each other opens the door for many possibilites
--kinzo puts her soul in a human body and lets it grow,clearly surrounded by many servants(like when beatrice asked rosa if she is the new gardner).it is highlylikely that said servants were furniture summoned by kinzo for that sole purpose and are changed from time to time(most likely as kinzo's power got better and he was able to summon better servants)

before i continue,some important notes:

-in kinzo's discussion with"intermideate/human beato",she asks"Orewa Nane Mono Da?" not "Orewa Dare Da?". this is important,as afaik the latter translates to 'WHO am i?"while the former translates to "WHAT am i?",a question that expresses that she didnt consider herself human,otherwise she would have used the normal,human,way of asking.

-there may be a problem with the timeline,as Kinjo's scene happened 19y ago,while rosa says her meeting happened 20 years ago,but i think that can be explained as rosa was quite panicking and remembering events from so long ago that she clearly wanted to forget,so 20 or 19 or even 18 is clearly within expected range,especially that she mainly remembered that she was in middle school,which lasts 3 years.

-butler confirmed the existence of a hidden mansion named(forgot the name lol) in red,but said"this is the manson we are talking about"in black. he then said in red that beato was in a hidden mansion but didnt name it,even though it would have been easier for him to say"she was in(insert name here)"instead of"in a hidden mansion". this leads me to believe that,while she was in a hidden mansion on rokkenjima,she wasnt in"(insert name here)"hidden mansion.

-is"meta battler"in complete control of his piece on the game board?i believe yes,based on many scenes. however,if that is the case then what happened to the normal battlers from the other worlds/dimensions?can two copies of the same person even exist in the same world?we still dont know the answer to that. not even a hint.

-reason i am asking is that i have a theory that the place "human beato"was in was similar to the"tea party"place. a location outside the normal worlds. afterall,you dont"suddenly"see a HUGE fence and mansion right infront of you. also her description about the fence seemingly being endless. however,how do we know that the"realm"they exited to was the same"realm"rosa was from?and if it wasnt then what happened to that realm's rosa?i need the game to explain the rules of "realm travel"before i embrace this theory.

back to the theory:
--human beatrice clearly knows about some of her past,but is wondering with weather she is "just a vessel"for the great witch beatrice or weather she is a full human. also,the fact that kinzo avoids talking about her past leads me to further believe that something horrible happened to her in the past,possibly because of him,which lead to her death. thus,he doesnt want her to dig about her past because he is afraid that she will remember those events.
--Rosa appears and"human beatrice"dies
--current beatrice is released and remembers said horrible events,which makes a huge wave of sadness within her. said sadness leads to her becoming sadistic/evil to protect her inner fragile self.

-i wanted to note that when i said"any reader who finished both episodes and still denies the existence of beatrice the witch(NOT weather or not she was responsible for the killings,but her existence in the first place)is kidding themselves.",i was talking about her being a supernatural being in general,not specifically a "witch". for all we know she could be "a god"(i heard in higurashi some of the"witches"were actually gods),"a devil","a shinigami",even"a voldemort"lol. even if she was any supernatural being with a different name than"witch"then that still fits my description.
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Old 2016-07-07, 18:06   Link #5
chaos_alfa
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It is interesting and fun to read your theories and thoughts, but it is difficult to have a discussion if you already know the solution to the mystery.

Edit: I have put a post in the "[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations" thread to let people know your thread exist and you want to have some spoiler free discussions here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER View Post
honestly,i think this would have been better if they added dialog choices that lead you to different wrong ends. a big part of the joy of Visual Novels like Kanon and Clannad is the sheer amount of choices availible which really engrossed you. i know that this is a different genre(myster not romance)but i still think some options could have been added(maybe for wrong choices with hints?maybe for giving up?maybe for going on a murdering rampage from frustration lol). heck,i struggle to explain to my friends how this is a"game"even,as there is no interactivity whatsoever >->.
Actually it is a game, you have just given up on seeing it as a solvable mystery.

Ryukishi, the writer seem to have realized after Episode 2 that he made Episode 2 too difficult for a lot of readers. as a response he scrapped his original scenario for episode 3 and wrote an easier one. Episode 3 will also give you an important clue in how to tackle the mystery/game. Knowing this clue will make it easier to start seeing Uminkeo as a solvable mystery/game again.

The first half of Umineko (Epsiode 1-4 ) will present the mystery and the second half (Epsidoe 5-8) will teach you how to unravel the mystery.

Umineko was actually conceived to be tackled with an (online) community. As a single reader it will be very difficult to figure out the whole mystery. This doesn't mean that it won't be possible, but it can be a challenge.

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2016-07-07 at 18:42.
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Old 2016-07-08, 13:15   Link #6
FFTHEWINNER
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
It is interesting and fun to read your theories and thoughts, but it is difficult to have a discussion if you already know the solution to the mystery.

Edit: I have put a post in the "[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations" thread to let people know your thread exist and you want to have some spoiler free discussions here.



Actually it is a game, you have just given up on seeing it as a solvable mystery.

Ryukishi, the writer seem to have realized after Episode 2 that he made Episode 2 too difficult for a lot of readers. as a response he scrapped his original scenario for episode 3 and wrote an easier one. Episode 3 will also give you an important clue in how to tackle the mystery/game. Knowing this clue will make it easier to start seeing Uminkeo as a solvable mystery/game again.

The first half of Umineko (Epsiode 1-4 ) will present the mystery and the second half (Epsidoe 5-8) will teach you how to unravel the mystery.

Umineko was actually conceived to be tackled with an (online) community. As a single reader it will be very difficult to figure out the whole mystery. This doesn't mean that it won't be possible, but it can be a challenge.
first,glad that you are enjoying my theories,and thanks for your post there . for the record,i am an Otoku,so"He",but i would rather be called FFTHEWINNER or simply FF

you actually missunderstood my post. i never stopped thinking or gave up on the mystery aspect.not even once. in fact,many of my old theories (the"furniture",the"two beatrices",etc)were so far proven correct,barring any surprise announcements. yes,beatrice the supernatural being/witch exists,but the epitaph clearly states that the killer is the one who finds the key not her. it even specifically says"the holder of the key shall..."and in the 1st twilight"YOU will...".
so there is clearly a murderer/s. as for my complete theory on all the murders before the 9th twilight(in the 9th twilight the witch is revived.everything after that is done by her),i heard that chapter 3 is where lots of stuff that is necessary to solve the mysteries is revealed,so i will wait until i finish it before i make a complete theory .

as for my"Not a game"comment,i was actually talking about how hard it is to say that any linear visual novel,not just umineko,is a"game",as for something to be classified as a "game" it has to be interactive. you must have the ability to make actions that lead to you winning or losing the game. normal Visual Novels have that interactivity in the dialog choices,but in Linear Visual Novels no kind of interactivity exists. you are pretty much reading a book with a casette tape playing lol. that is why i was saying that it is hard to say that umineko is a "game" .
also,i greatly enjoy having abundant dialog choices,as it makes me feel like i truly am the MC,so there is that as well

with that being said:

havent continued reading yet,but thought i'd make a post about a few things i was thinking of

-first,i have been listening to the full,subbed,umineko game song:

https://youtu.be/roVlnja8u-w?t=1m54s

and a line really caught my attention. it is said right after the portion of the song that is included in in the game's opening ends(link takes you right to it):

"In The dancing wings of butterflies,dreams and reality come and go".

this line gave me an evolution of a theory i had.
i mentioned before that ep2's tea party might be a hallucination that beatrice inflicted on rosa and battler. using this line as a hint,we can evolve our pokemon(theory) and say that beatrice's butterflies have a hypnotizing effect that makes the victim see whatever she wants him to say.
most of the murders begin with butterflies. in said murders,what we are seeing IS indeed what the victims(or at least one of them,as the visions might be different for each person) are seeing,but what they are seeing is a hallucination decided by beatrice while the real killer/s does his job with no problems or resistances. after all,while beatrice isnt the killer/s,she and the killer/s have a common interest in him succeeding,as that is how she will be revived.
of course,the problem with this theory is"fake kanon",as no butterflies were involved until he died,and that prevents me from fully adapting this theory. still,i think that line must be a big hint,and this is the best way to explain it in my opinion.
also,the song focuses on the themes of love,forgiveness,and wanting what is currently unreachable. those themes very much fit my aforementioned theory about"old good-Human-New bad beatrices",so that is good


-Thought i'd post my thoughts/ratings of the characters currently,as it would be pretty interesting to look at my thoughts when i finish the game and see how much they changed . i will be giving them a rank out of 10,then explain why. feel free to share how you thought about the characters when you were in my place(AKA when you only finished what i finished) too guys,as the differing opinions would be interesting to compare .

-Natsuhi: 10/10. best person in the game and it is not even close. i gushed about her already,so i will simply say that she is the perfect wife and i fully agree with what kinzo said about her(though i would have allowed her to wear the damn eagle,although i think who wears the eagle has a symbolic meaning that hasnt been revealed. kinzo's blood(as in,his real blood that flows in his family) is most likely"special"in someway in regards to magic,and only servants who wear the eagle are the ones summoned by him).

-Kinzo: 9/10 or 1/10,depending on weather my aforementioned theory about him and beatrice is true or not. if not true then he would be by far the most two dimensional and paper cut character in the entire game and you could sum his entire existence with one phrase("mad guy who we heard was once smart"). if my theory is true however then he would be how i believe he is:Multi faceted,extremely smart and cunning,neither mad nor weak,and my favorite character in the game.

-Rosa: 2/10. a very paranoid and abusive woman with no redeeming qualities. goes into fits at the slightest provocation,doesnt even try to understand her own daughter,takes violence as the 1st choice instead of the last choice,hurts her child's psyche for life.when in power automatically assumes that all are out to get her. i especially hate such a character as my relative IRL is very similar,and i have seen first hand what that did to his children.

-Eva:1/10. the apparently obligatory"strong woman who can do anything a man can but was treated unfairly because of her gender". truly worthless character who i wish would disappear anytime she is onscreen. a game with"shotgun eva"is a game i am likely to skip a lot of lol.
on a side note,when eva was talking about her"paper theory"in episode 1,i found it incredibly weird that no one asked HER for proof that the f***ing thing even existed. we have no proof at all that such a paper existed,and why would it exist on the 1st place?no one was murdered at the time eva allegedly put it,so why would eva put it? i am willing to bet money that such a paper never existed. however,that doesnt necessarily mean that eva was the murderer,as the differences between her and natsuhi clearly run deeper than natsuhi simply being crauss's wife,so it could be that eva fabricated the story just out of hatred for natsuhi,or to see her reaction because she genuinely believed she was the killer.

-Hideoshi: 7/10. very underdeveloped."The Nice and cool uncle"is pretty much all his character is so far,which is why points were deducted. rating is still high because he works well in that rule,but i would still like to see him get developed more(for example,a back story on his childhood and what he thought when eva wanted him to let go of his family's name).

-Rudolf: ?/10.died in the 1st twilight in both episodes and didnt do much before,so dont have enough info to judge. seems to me like he is caring on the inside and loves battler but doesnt show it(possibly because of complexes in his childhood). also,very sarcastic,which i like

-Kyrie: 8/10. smart,calm,and calculating. all things i like. not that much developed though,so points taken for that and for giving up in episode 2,which annoyed me as she was battler's idol pretty much in his way of thinking. heard that episode 3 will explore her more,so my opinion might change relatively quickly on this one lol XD

-Krauss: 3.5/10. clearly smart and sarcastic,which i like. but the bad outweighs the good. takes his father's money without his father's consent,treats the best wife one can have as if she doesnt matter,doesnt defend the honor of his own wife,Hypocrite.

-Nanjo: ?/10. while we see him a lot he is incredibly undeveloped. i cant even make any comments as so far he is simply"Kinzo's doctor friend".
on a side note,i suspect him a lot because of his "turn"comment(as i explained in a previous post).

-Jessica: 6/10. average character all around. template"teenager in a rural area"to the T. additional point for her interactions with battler and Dem Oppai

-Kanon: 7.5/10. good character with plenty of depth and very loyal. however,his hatred runs way too deep and makes him out to be unlikable at times(like in his first interaction with battler)

-Genji: 8.5/10. the perfect servant and perfectly complements Kinzo,but points deducted because we still dont know much about him at all. he is clearly far deeper than how he first appears though.

-George: ?/10. like Nanjo,we still dont know much about him despite how long we spent with him(though to a far lesser degree). he is"too perfect",with not a bad trait to be found. that and his ominous comments and how he defends the parents greed makes me feel he is a culprit in at least a few murders.

-Shannon: 8/10. a pretty good character. honest.great at work(with just a little bit of the Klutz that makes her more moe .and Dem Oppai. however,her being the cause of the murders when she broke the mirror and how mentally weak she is normally makes me deduct some points.

-Gohda: 7.5/10. for a character who clearly doesnt matter and is there just to add numbers,he has some surprising depth.still,him being an a****** to the other servants and a lazy bum normally doesnt work in his favor lol.

-Kumasawa: ?/10. up there with Nanjo in terms of under developness. also somewhat suspicious based on the old mystery rule of"old nice people are usually bad"lol,and on her being truly mysterious in every way.

-Maria: 9.5/10. a very intriguing character with many layers. right after beatrice and and battler in plot focus(and,coincidentally,in this list's order lol)and definitely deserves it. even her "Uu"isnt annoying in the game(but was one of the many things the anime butchered up lol. a side point but i checked out the 1st episode of the anime a while ago and fully understand why it is considered one of the worst adaptations of all time lol >_>)

-Battler: 8.5/10. pretty enjoyable,and at times smart,but at other times completely incompetent.if he wasnt the main character i would have rated him lower,but"main character bias"forces me to rate him high

-Beatrice: 10/10. the perfect villain. perfectly intriguing. incredibly evil at times and sympathetic in other. incredibly multi layered. smart but makes mistakes. truly great.
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Old 2016-07-08, 13:48   Link #7
AuraTwilight
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Hey, I always love threads like these, and your thoughts seem pretty interesting so far. I'm going to respond to some of your ideas here. I'm not spoiling anything though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER
1- Kinzo Is lying to all and actually intends to kill/destroy Beatrice. i reached this conclusion soon after finishing EP1,because:

-Why did he put a strong magic repellant on his door if he actually wants to meet her this badly?
-Why did he put the epitaph in the first place?if he loves her that much,and he hates his family that much,why would he intentionally put something that might lead to his beloved being put to sleep for all eternity(AKA Killed)and for one of his hated family to gain everything?wouln't he prefer his beloved to win?
-why does he scream loudly EVERY.SINGLE.TIME he talks about his love for her?
-Why Didnt he destroy the mirror that was limiting her power?

I Believe the following are the answers:

-Because if she entered his library,she would notice what many of his books are forestroying witches.
-Because,since he knows the answer,he cant solve the riddle himself,but he hopes that someone,anyone,will do it and defeat her.
-because he wants her to hear him from outside his study,as a part of tricking her.
-Because he wants her to be weak.
also remember the comments from genji and nanjo about how he can do genius things that seem dumb to the lesser,uninformed,minds.
the witch's comment about how he"wants to put her in a cage for all eternity"may or may not be a clue. i dont think it is,since i fully believe she was fooled by his act.
What if it's the other way around? What if Beatrice is trying to kill Kinzo (She's trying to claim his soul and possessions, after all), and everything you just mentioned is his defenses in an attempt to make sure he lives to the end of the roulette and be one of the five who goes to the Golden Land?

Quote:
3:i have two theories about Rosa conceiving Maria. i think one is correct.
A:Rosa intentionally broke up with the maria's father and refused marriage in order for her name to not be removed from the family registry and thus still get her share of the inheritance
B:Rosa was Raped(Possibly in the forest by some witch other than Beatrice,possibly not)and that is how maria was conceived,and her subconscious hates maria because of that,while the other part loves her because she is her daughter anyway.
What if her lover abandoned her with child, and Rosa's angry about that?

Quote:
6:The servants'"i am furniture"talk is to be taken literally. they WERE literal furniture at some point who were turned to humans by Kinzo's/Beatrice's magic. Genji's talk about the"favor that Kinzo did to them and they will spend their whole life serving him as repayment for it" is also a reference to that.
I admit, I've never heard this theory before. It's pretty hilarious and interesting. Make sure to read the TIPS after you finish EP2 for the magical explanation on why they're Furniture.

Quote:

7:If you will ask weather i am" team deny magic or team its magic",both at the same time. After all beatrice done her magic is undoubtful,but it is also undoubtful that whomever found the key is helping her
Hm, what proof is there that Beatrice has done magic?

Quote:
also,are the tea parties Canon?in the beginning it seemed to me like it was a"behind the scenes"thing where VAs talk about the game,but the end makes it seem canon. if it was canon then why didnt Kanon tell Battler about how he died fighting Beatrice,which means that she definitely exists?"
Yea, they're canon. Battler and Beatrice are in a higher layer of reality watching the timeloop happen.

As for, Kanon, well, "Hey FFTHEWINNER, I saw a unicorn today. What do you mean that's not proof? I'm telling you I saw one!"

Quote:

"another theory:the witch in the portrait is somewhat different from the witch we met. the one in the portrait gives an air of elegance,of high class, while the one we met is the exact opposite. not sure weather she is a relative or simply changed in personality for some reason,but they arent the same."
This is a very interesting observation.

Quote:
"reached the point where all the "adults"admit that beatrice is a witch.

-disappointed that kyrie did admit it too,as battler looked up to her and how she thinks a lot. i got a feeling somewhat like"if the teacher fell,what hope does the pupil have?". also,she and natsuhi are the only likeable"adults"in the entire cast lol. funny,considering that neither of them are actually ushiroymia. makes you think that blood has"unlikability"as one of its chromosomes lol >_>.
Pfft, yea. It's a shame that Kyrie doesn't get to be more of an intellectual badass in these early episodes, but I guess she'd be too powerful an ally to Battler. ^_^

Quote:
-a BIG new theory that ties to two older ones: there was a line in ep1 that i didnt fully believe. now it has been repeated in ep2. the line is"Kinzo said he had a mistress named beatrice,who died long ago and is searching for ways to revive her". i am now 90% convinced that this is what happened:

A- Kinzo truly loved the original beatrice,the classy,dignified one drown in the picture

B- Something major happened that caused Beatrice to change into her current evil form. that is how "Kinzo's beatrice died"

C- Kinzo both hates the current beatrice and loves the old one. that explains all my original questions in post 1,as he wants the current beatrice to be weak,both to reduce her danger and to make his chances of success in changing her to the old her(AKA"Reviving"the old her) through his ritual higher."
Very interesting. Remember also, that Beatrice also wants to 'revive' in order to regain her full Witch powers, as if she's some sort of ghost. Perhaps being dead and limited in power has warped her? Like how if you're trapped in some place without any of the comforts you're used to, you start to resent and hate everything there?

Imagine you could go anywhere, and do anything, and you're stuck on a stupid little island where no one can see you or hear you, and you don't even get to see even 20 people. I'd go stir-crazy.

Quote:
Reached after the first"Closed Chapel Discussion duel"ends with Beatrice giving up.

-funnily enough,When the discussion started i immediately thought"there was a duplicate key". when that was refuted i immediately thought"someone took the key then returned it and sealed it again". took battler too long to reach that conclusion lol.

-the"Red Rule"Doesnt make sense. first,Who guarantees that beatrice will uphold it?she could easily put any lie in red. i dont get why battler accepted this rule. also,how can battler see the red words in the first place??! we can because we are reading the story,but for them they are just talking normally,and sound doesnt have colors. my only thought is that beatrice's sound is somewhat different when she says the red stuff. any thoughts guys?(note,i was later convinced by the points another guy made,so no objections on this one now)
Because they're playing a game, and if Battler doubts it, they'll just play "Nuh uh," "Yea huh" over and over again. As for how Battler knows it's red...he can see the text. He's sort of outside the normal story, after all XD

But yes, you can take for granted that all Red Truth is actually true. Beatrice wants to win with style, so she won't cheat.

Quote:
- 2 very interesting lines from Nanjo and Kinzo:

Nanjo said"It isnt my turn this night"before leaving the kids gathering. his turn for what?the only way for this line to make sense is for him to know about the murder roulette. which means that he either is the one who"Found the key"or that he somehow knows of the events of the previous death cycle. thus,he suddenly became a strong suspect.

Kinzo Said"I will be prepared for you(beatrice),unlike last time". this means that he either remembers his death in the previous cycle(btw,i actually suspect that he didnt die that time,but that is just a suspicion with no reasoning behind it other than his body not being identifiable by anything other than the six fingers),or that he and beatrice did this before(Most likely with the"Old Beatrice",and for different reasons/consequences than this time)."
Very interesting. I think you're the first person I've seen to have these thoughts about Nanjo by episode 2.

Quote:
"reached after"Kanon"killed kumasawa and nanjo.

-WTF is up with the spider thing?is that some old japanese story that says"Demons fear spiders"or something?(later explained to me)

-Why did he only kill Nanjo and Kumasawa?logic would say to kill them all,yet he only did 3 strikes. this is VERY suspicious.

-so witches can somehow interact with both the dead and the living. interesting.i think this will become a major plot point later on.

-the glossary referred me to "Knox's Ten Commandments". however,i dont think they were that useful,for the very simple reason that there is no proof that this game adheres to them. for example,there is no"Dumb side kick"here,and battler had so many "groundless" intuitions that i find it hard to believe that all of them are false.also,beato's magic is undeniable,which completely contradicts rule 2. thus,i dont think umineko plays by Knox's rules."
For what it's worth, Beatrice admits she holds to the No Secret Passages rule, so she atleast respects some of Knox's Commandments.

As for why "Kanon" let some people survive...well, Beatrice is trying to get Battler to believe she exists, right? What better than stammering witnesses descrbing something impossible?

Quote:
-Battler was eaten yet returned to normal in the tea party. this indicates one of two things.Either
A:She can remake the bodies from their remains like she claims(doubtful) or
B:She can Induce Hallucinations that she chooses upon her victims. this one is more likely,but if the 1st tea party was a hallucination that rosa was having then how come battler appeared and challenged beato?he isnt a magician,so my only explanation is that Beato was inflicting a "Shared Hallucination"upon both of them to make Battler suffer more.
Remember, after EP1, there's two Battlers now. The one on the island, and the one talking to Beatrice. It was the one on the island Beatrice fed to her goats.

Quote:
-any reader who finished both episodes and still denies the existence of beatrice the witch(NOT weather or not she was responsible for the killings,but her existence in the first place)is,imo,kidding themselves. even from episode one that much was obvious. otherwise how would battler see the dead and talk to them?how would he see the witch and talk to her?how do you explain berncastel?going into episode two,the simple fact that battler is rewinding the events,being inside them again,breathing again,talking with beatrice about them,etc.denying that beatrice was directly/indirectly responsible for some/most/all of the killings isnt impossible,but denying her entire existence is.
Remember, the game isn't to worry about stuff like Bernkastel, or Battler's other world where he sees dead people, and Beatrice. This is a story device that's on the other side of the 4th Wall, kind of.

Our game is to worry if magic exists on Rokkenjima island, being used to kill people. Think of the Rokkenjima mysteries as the story, and Battler's and Beatrice's game world is like an internet discussion on this story they're reading.

Quote:
-many theories claimed that clearly magical scenes only took place with people who die in the scene being the only ones who see them,thus they are a lie. that statement is false. the candy turned to butterflies then got fixed infront of rosa and rosa didnt die.genji stabbed the golden butterfly and didnt die.even battler saw butterflies in the ending(the claim that he was drunk doesnt work,as the game its self says that he wasnt).
furthermore,some say that the phrase"the witch answered ALL of battler's questions,and explained EVERYTHING to him"means that the"magic scenes"were her explanation,but that contradicts what the phrase its self said. Battler asked about much more than the "how". he asked many,many more questions that we werent shown the answer to. yet the witch answered EVERYTHING. so the magic scenes cant be her answer.
however,i am NOT saying that everything we see is 100% the truth. like battler,i am not proving that X is correct,but that Y isnt correct .
A few things, to jostle your thinking.

1) What if Rosa, or Genji, or whoever, is the person working with Beatrice?

2) The 'Game' ends at October 6th, Midnight. After that, Beatrice's magic consumes the island. Can Battler believe anything he sees after the 'Gameplay' is over for that round?

Quote:
-a ton of people wondered and guessed about the contents of the beatrice letter that natsuhi read. that is weird,because it was clearly stated in-game. natsuhi says"i accept your offer to a duel"and "beatrice,who claims to succeed the head",so it is pretty obvious that the letter contained a challenge for a duel to determine who the next head is and for the honor of the Ushyromiya name.(on a side note,Natsuhi is genuinely the best human in the game,personality wise. her personality is admirable in everyway. it is quite sad how she is treated. she is quite beautiful too,and is clearly smart considering how she manages a ton of things instead of krauss(like we see in her conversations with him)so she is pretty much the total package for a wife lol).
Yea, Natsuhi is a great character. No spoilers, but you'll love EP5. It's basically Natsuhi's spotlight episode.

As for the letter, what people mean is, what else could it have said? For example, "Lol hey Natsuhi I know where the gold is, beat me in a duel and it's yours" or "Hey Natsuhi, here's some hurtful secrets you never told anyone. Come fight me."

Quote:
-i think what is actually in the forest is a monument of some sort,possibly related to old beatrice. furthermore,i have had a hunch for a while,and could be wrong,but here we go:
in magic,there is always a rule that,the stronger you are,the more you lose your humanity. this is doubly so for "demon contract" magic. and a body isnt endless.it ages and dies,but beatrice is endless.
thus,could it be that,in order to attain,her"endless"status,Beatrice had to let go of her humanity and her body?AKA die?and could that"hidden place"be a graveyard to hold her body?
Furthermore,could The reason for the change from "old,good"to"current,bad" be that she went the"black magic"route?and kinzo is apologizing because he was part of the reason she went that route?
like i said,it is just a hunch,but it explains many things. we will see i guess.
It IS interesting that Witches aren't considered humans, huh? But if magic turns you itno an evil demon like that, what about the former, silver-haired Beatrice in the flashback, who was so kind?

Quote:
honestly,i think this would have been better if they added dialog choices that lead you to different wrong ends. a big part of the joy of Visual Novels like Kanon and Clannad is the sheer amount of choices availible which really engrossed you. i know that this is a different genre(myster not romance)but i still think some options could have been added(maybe for wrong choices with hints?maybe for giving up?maybe for going on a murdering rampage from frustration lol). heck,i struggle to explain to my friends how this is a"game"even,as there is no interactivity whatsoever >->.
I like it the way it is, personally. Although EP8 has SOME choices, and there's fan-made episodes, one of which is a Choose your own adventure where you decide everything like in a text adventure game.

Quote:

-"No more than 18 people on THIS rokkenjima"in red=what we already knew is confirmed. there are multiple rokkenjimas through the"different dimensions/worlds/timelineswhatever you call it"that was also in Higurashi. that also means three important things:
--there is more than 18 people in some of the other rokkenjimas/episodes
--the killer/s is/are different each episode
--what happened in each dimension might not have happened in the other ones,so the rosa in this rokkenjima might be the only rosa that encountered beato
Eh, I wouldn't conclude any of that. Beatrice likes to be vague in order to screw with Battler, and there could be other islands named Rokkenjima. :P

Quote:
-those scenes are incredibly important i think. my theory for them:
Beato"Mixed poison with honey"(old saying,means she mixed the truth with the lies).i think the truth is as follows:
--Kinzo summons"old,good,beatrice"
--Both in them fall in love with each other
--old beatrice's death/suicide. this one i have many theories for. it may be that she suicided because of sadness over something kinzo did(which would explain why kinzo is regretful.i find this one to be the most probable). it may be that she wanted to be human again,but the only way to do that was to kill herself and be reborn. it could be anything really. i could think of many reasons. regardless,that they truly loved each other opens the door for many possibilites
--kinzo puts her soul in a human body and lets it grow,clearly surrounded by many servants(like when beatrice asked rosa if she is the new gardner).it is highlylikely that said servants were furniture summoned by kinzo for that sole purpose and are changed from time to time(most likely as kinzo's power got better and he was able to summon better servants)
What if their love was one-sided, and Kinzo tried to keep her trapped here with that mirror?

Quote:

-is"meta battler"in complete control of his piece on the game board?i believe yes,based on many scenes. however,if that is the case then what happened to the normal battlers from the other worlds/dimensions?can two copies of the same person even exist in the same world?we still dont know the answer to that. not even a hint.
Basically, it's like an RPG. He's roleplaying as a version of himself that doesn't know what's happening, and he can put thoughts and ideas in his head, but he can't 'break character', and if he wants he can let his Piece work on auto-pilot.

Quote:
-reason i am asking is that i have a theory that the place "human beato"was in was similar to the"tea party"place. a location outside the normal worlds. afterall,you dont"suddenly"see a HUGE fence and mansion right infront of you. also her description about the fence seemingly being endless. however,how do we know that the"realm"they exited to was the same"realm"rosa was from?and if it wasnt then what happened to that realm's rosa?i need the game to explain the rules of "realm travel"before i embrace this theory.
The place Battler and Beatrice play their game is certainly seems like it could be this higher dimension magical version of the Hidden Mansion (Kuwadorian), but I don't think its the same place. Remember terms like the 'endless' fence could very well just be descriptive text of Rosa's sense of wonder.

Quote:
-i wanted to note that when i said"any reader who finished both episodes and still denies the existence of beatrice the witch(NOT weather or not she was responsible for the killings,but her existence in the first place)is kidding themselves.",i was talking about her being a supernatural being in general,not specifically a "witch". for all we know she could be "a god"(i heard in higurashi some of the"witches"were actually gods),"a devil","a shinigami",even"a voldemort"lol. even if she was any supernatural being with a different name than"witch"then that still fits my description.
For the sake of simplicity, Umineko treats "any human who's gained magical powers, even if they lost their humanity" as a 'Witch' for the sake of the arguments. No need to worry about word games like "Beatrice is a Demon, neener neener."

Still, remember that it's not a game if Battler can't win...

Sorry for the long response post, but I really loved reading your thoughts as you go along! Please keep going!
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Old 2016-07-08, 13:56   Link #8
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
"In The dancing wings of butterflies,dreams and reality come and go".

this line gave me an evolution of a theory i had.
i mentioned before that ep2's tea party might be a hallucination that beatrice inflicted on rosa and battler. using this line as a hint,we can evolve our pokemon(theory) and say that beatrice's butterflies have a hypnotizing effect that makes the victim see whatever she wants him to say.
most of the murders begin with butterflies. in said murders,what we are seeing IS indeed what the victims(or at least one of them,as the visions might be different for each person) are seeing,but what they are seeing is a hallucination decided by beatrice while the real killer/s does his job with no problems or resistances. after all,while beatrice isnt the killer/s,she and the killer/s have a common interest in him succeeding,as that is how she will be revived.
of course,the problem with this theory is"fake kanon",as no butterflies were involved until he died,and that prevents me from fully adapting this theory. still,i think that line must be a big hint,and this is the best way to explain it in my opinion.
also,the song focuses on the themes of love,forgiveness,and wanting what is currently unreachable. those themes very much fit my aforementioned theory about"old good-Human-New bad beatrices",so that is good
Wow, this is really fascinating to read from someone only on Episode 3. The parts of this in the right direction usually takes people a bit longer.

Quote:
-Kinzo: 9/10 or 1/10,depending on weather my aforementioned theory about him and beatrice is true or not. if not true then he would be by far the most two dimensional and paper cut character in the entire game and you could sum his entire existence with one phrase("mad guy who we heard was once smart"). if my theory is true however then he would be how i believe he is:Multi faceted,extremely smart and cunning,neither mad nor weak,and my favorite character in the game.
What if Kinzo is three-dimensional in a way you didn't consider, like my "Wants to have Beatrice to himself, caused her death and regrets it" suggestion?

Quote:
-Eva:1/10. the apparently obligatory"strong woman who can do anything a man can but was treated unfairly because of her gender". truly worthless character who i wish would disappear anytime she is onscreen. a game with"shotgun eva"is a game i am likely to skip a lot of lol.
on a side note,when eva was talking about her"paper theory"in episode 1,i found it incredibly weird that no one asked HER for proof that the f***ing thing even existed. we have no proof at all that such a paper existed,and why would it exist on the 1st place?no one was murdered at the time eva allegedly put it,so why would eva put it? i am willing to bet money that such a paper never existed. however,that doesnt necessarily mean that eva was the murderer,as the differences between her and natsuhi clearly run deeper than natsuhi simply being crauss's wife,so it could be that eva fabricated the story just out of hatred for natsuhi,or to see her reaction because she genuinely believed she was the killer.
So, I'll say that EP3 is basically the Eva episode, but PLEASE don't skip any of her scenes or anything. She's really, really important to the story, and your opinion of her is going to change in a lot of ways. She hasn't stepped into the spotlight yet.

As for why she placed the paper before any murders...she was clearly suspicious of something. You'll learn more about this later.

Quote:

-Kyrie: 8/10. smart,calm,and calculating. all things i like. not that much developed though,so points taken for that and for giving up in episode 2,which annoyed me as she was battler's idol pretty much in his way of thinking. heard that episode 3 will explore her more,so my opinion might change relatively quickly on this one lol XD
Kyrie gets some development in EP3, but she gets most of it in EP4. All the moms pretty much get spotlight.

Quote:
-Kanon: 7.5/10. good character with plenty of depth and very loyal. however,his hatred runs way too deep and makes him out to be unlikable at times(like in his first interaction with battler)
I don't think it was hatred that made that scene with Battler the way it is. He seemed, nervous, or anxious, or a bit too shy to say anything to him.

Remember that Kanon, of all the 'furniture', sees himself as the least human, and has no right to act like he is.

Quote:
-Shannon: 8/10. a pretty good character. honest.great at work(with just a little bit of the Klutz that makes her more moe .and Dem Oppai. however,her being the cause of the murders when she broke the mirror and how mentally weak she is normally makes me deduct some points.
To be fair, consider what Beatrice offered her in return, and remember that Beatrice spent MONTHS getting on Shannon's good side and tricking her into thinking she was kind.
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Old 2016-07-10, 10:27   Link #9
FFTHEWINNER
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Now THIS is what i am talking about! this is the kind of discussion i like!

(i wrote the majority of my reply yesterday,but after writing for over an hour the electricity went out and i lost all i wrote >_<. you cant imagine how angry i was at the time and how agonizing it was to have to rethink/remember/rewrite every thing lol)

"What if it's the other way around? What if Beatrice is trying to kill Kinzo (She's trying to claim his soul and possessions, after all), and everything you just mentioned is his defenses in an attempt to make sure he lives to the end of the roulette and be one of the five who goes to the Golden Land?"

"What if their love was one-sided, and Kinzo tried to keep her trapped here with that mirror?"

"What if Kinzo is three-dimensional in a way you didn't consider, like my "Wants to have Beatrice to himself, caused her death and regrets it" suggestion?"


first,my theories are like pokemon,they evolve and gain new moves,so please keep the latest evolution phase in mind when discussing one of them

this theory in particular evolved many times and got fusion summioned with the"many beatrices"theory to form "the theory to rule them all",also known as"The Three Beatrices and Kinzo's Love For The First,Hatred of The Third,and"Dont Remember Please"Of The Third". This Fusion Summoned Monster Has an attack and defense power of 5000 and the ability to evolve every turn. i am quite proud of it

in all seriousness,your 1st sugestion doesnt work because,even among the last 5,who goes to the golden land is up to beatrice's whim. Natsuhi in episode 1 and Rosa in episode 2 both didnt go to the golden land despite being in the final 5. considering how current beatrice feels towards him,kinzo definitely wont go even if he survived until the end.

also,i have a few"bases"in this game. things that i fully believe and that help a lot in building my theories.
one of those bases is that kinzo is a genius.
thus,he wouldnt do worthless/dumb things. he is a master at both chess and human chess. he has been deciding his moves for many years and every move he makes is calculated and beneficial,even though,as genji and nanjo said,it might seem dumb to the lesser,uninformed,minds.
now let us be honest here. all this"imma lock you up for years until you love me" crap is for F grade movies. no one with a brain,let alone a genius like kinzo,believes that scenario would ever work. however,all the events and all the lines point towards Kinzo and "old Beatrice" having a true and shared love that somehow ended in tragedy,creating"human beatrice"and then"current beatrice". that would explain every single mystery and solve every problem including this one because if if kinzo is able to change"Current Beato"back into "old beato"then he truly gets the hollywood" Happily Ever After"ending


"What if her lover abandoned her with child, and Rosa's angry about that?"

too cliche,predictable,and dull. i reject this theory for the same reason i rejected the"it is all a dream"theory. because,even though it is my 1st time experiencing any of Ryukishi07's works,it is pretty clear how much of an incredible writer he is(and how bad he is at drawing lol. thank god for the PS3 patch XD). i have read tons of visual novels,but the only ones on this level of quality are Key's,Type-Moon's,and Grisaia. such a writer wont stoop so low as to reach for the most predictable and lame answer possible.

"I admit, I've never heard this theory before. It's pretty hilarious and interesting. Make sure to read the TIPS after you finish EP2 for the magical explanation on why they're Furniture."

...i have finished EP2 a while ago lol. where you writing these as you were reading?
Anyway,this is actually a theory that was proven correct,though i might have explained it badly at the time. when i said that phrase has to be taken literally i didnt mean"Kanon was a table and Shannon was a chair". i meant"this isnt just a phrase to appear humble. those arent humans. they were created by kinzo's magic just like how a carpenter creates furniture with his tools".
i even mentioned that in a post later on:
"glad to see that some of my old theories are being proven true,like this one:

"The servants'"i am furniture"talk is to be taken literally. they WERE literal furniture at some point who were turned to humans by Kinzo's/Beatrice's magic. Genji's talk about the"favor that Kinzo did to them and they will spend their whole life serving him as repayment for it" is also a reference to that."

after recent events there is no doubt that the servants were magically summoned and turned into humans by kinzo's magic. they are of the same fabric as beatrice's goat servants,only difference is beato's servants are corrupted just like she is,while kinzo's arent."


"Hm, what proof is there that Beatrice has done magic?"

Refer to this post for the answer please
"any reader who finished both episodes and still denies the existence of beatrice the witch(NOT weather or not she was responsible for the killings,but her existence in the first place)is,imo,kidding themselves. even from episode one that much was obvious. otherwise how would battler see the dead and talk to them?how would he see the witch and talk to her?how do you explain berncastel?going into episode two,the simple fact that battler is rewinding the events,being inside them again,breathing again,talking with beatrice about them,etc.denying that beatrice was directly/indirectly responsible for some/most/all of the killings isnt impossible,but denying her entire existence is."


"Yea, they're canon. Battler and Beatrice are in a higher layer of reality watching the timeloop happen.

As for, Kanon, well, "Hey FFTHEWINNER, I saw a unicorn today. What do you mean that's not proof? I'm telling you I saw one!""

yeah. this was confirmed to me soon after i originally posted the topic

and i see your point. battler would never believe kanon if he told him. still,why didnt battler be like"hey guys...you kinda died. how the f*** are you talking to me?and how did you die?and where are we?and WTF is going on?"


"This is a very interesting observation."

yeah. this was one of the ingredients of the aforementioned fusion summon

"Pfft, yea. It's a shame that Kyrie doesn't get to be more of an intellectual badass in these early episodes, but I guess she'd be too powerful an ally to Battler. ^_^"

pretty sure she wouldnt be that helpful to battler either way lol,considering that she dies immediately after this scene XD


"Very interesting. Remember also, that Beatrice also wants to 'revive' in order to regain her full Witch powers, as if she's some sort of ghost. Perhaps being dead and limited in power has warped her? Like how if you're trapped in some place without any of the comforts you're used to, you start to resent and hate everything there?

Imagine you could go anywhere, and do anything, and you're stuck on a stupid little island where no one can see you or hear you, and you don't even get to see even 20 people. I'd go stir-crazy."

she was indeed a ghost,as we see in the beginning of episode 2. however,i dont think that suggestion is correct. Beatrice is an"Endless Witch". she has already lived for over a thousend years. for someone like her,waiting and planning for a couple of decades is absoloutely nothing


"Because they're playing a game, and if Battler doubts it, they'll just play "Nuh uh," "Yea huh" over and over again. As for how Battler knows it's red...he can see the text. He's sort of outside the normal story, after all XD

But yes, you can take for granted that all Red Truth is actually true. Beatrice wants to win with style, so she won't cheat."

as i mentioned in that quote,i was later convinced by the points another guy made,so no objections on the truth of the red text now. as for how we see it,i highly disagree with you,but i was showed in the original thread how the anime does it,and i can accept that method.


"Very interesting. I think you're the first person I've seen to have these thoughts about Nanjo by episode 2.

Wow, this is really fascinating to read from someone only on Episode 3. The parts of this in the right direction usually takes people a bit longer."


i think this is a good place to post some more of my thoughts about the old discussions i read. i didnt include those in my original post for fear that someone would misunderstand and get offended,which isnt my intention at all. just things that i thought of while reading the discussions

-the majority of my theories,especially the big ones,were not thought of at all in the discussions,even though there was like 50 pages filled to the brim with theories. this surprised me,since i expected most of them to have been discussed to death. guess that,for better or for worse,my brain goes in different directions than the brains of most players lol.

-while a lot of the theories were very interesting and thought provoking even though i disagreed with them,some theories,not all or the majority by any means but some,i found to be weird,with people going out of their way into"ridiculous"territory just to prove the complete absence of any kind of magic(like the one guy who said George killed all the adults in EP2,including his parents,simply because they wouldnt agree to his marriage with shannon. yeah right >_>.or the other guy whose theory depended on everyone and their mother in the entire chapter 2 being either a murderer or an accomplice.guess he liked rosa's way of thinking too much lol). i found it interesting how far they went to deny magic when,imo,magic and mystery can easily co-exist.

again,no offense intended,and i am sure many of my theories would have seemed dumb to many people back then too. just wanted to share my thoughts


"For what it's worth, Beatrice admits she holds to the No Secret Passages rule, so she atleast respects some of Knox's Commandments.

As for why "Kanon" let some people survive...well, Beatrice is trying to get Battler to believe she exists, right? What better than stammering witnesses descrbing something impossible?"

fair points


"Remember, after EP1, there's two Battlers now. The one on the island, and the one talking to Beatrice. It was the one on the island Beatrice fed to her goats."

even if we discard battler there is still a ton of evidence that this is a shared hallucination.
first,battler wasnt the only character"revived".eva and krauss were endlessly killed and revived as well.
second,that obviously isnt maria because maria would never act like that. maria believes that beatrice is a benevolent witch that will make her happy forever with her beloved mother and father in the golden land. that maria would never act/say what this"maria"said. you could argue that this could have been a "fake maria"like"fake kanon",but her interaction with battler at the end+her normal-not red-eyes mean that isnt the case.
third,that isnt kinzo. kinzo the incredibly dignified person would never act so undignified like that one did,and kinzo the genius would not die like a chump like that.
that actually also explains a ? i had when i saw this part:
"The ending sure confused me lol. it seems to delete my "Kinzo vs current beatrice"theory,but that theory has too much evidence behind it for me to simply give up on it. there must be some missing links that we still havent been told yet. maybe Kinzo is waiting for a chance to do something?maybe he has a plan?not sure."
well,the answer is that everything after beatrice won in episode 2,with the possible exception of the chess scene,was a hallicination inflicted on battler by beareice's butterflies


"Remember, the game isn't to worry about stuff like Bernkastel, or Battler's other world where he sees dead people, and Beatrice. This is a story device that's on the other side of the 4th Wall, kind of.

Our game is to worry if magic exists on Rokkenjima island, being used to kill people. Think of the Rokkenjima mysteries as the story, and Battler's and Beatrice's game world is like an internet discussion on this story they're reading."

sorry but you are contradicting yourself. you just said the tea parties are canon. being canon means they can be used to solve the game just like all other scenes. you cant say"this bit of them is canon but this bit isnt". they are canon,and their simple existence proves beatrice's magic. the simple fact that we have a game at all proves beatrice's magic. unless you can explain using human methods how battler is seeing the dead and how he can go back in time,to the extreme past even.

the game between battler and beatrice is about who did the murders. beatrice wins if battler admits with all his heart that the murders could only happen using beatrice's magic. battler wins if he can prove that all of the murders could have been commited by a human. those are the winning conditions,which means that the essence of the game is"could a human commit these crimes or not",not"is beatrice a witch or not",despite fake claims otherwise.

"A few things, to jostle your thinking.

1) What if Rosa, or Genji, or whoever, is the person working with Beatrice?

2) The 'Game' ends at October 6th, Midnight. After that, Beatrice's magic consumes the island. Can Battler believe anything he sees after the 'Gameplay' is over for that round?"


1)let us look at the list of people in episode 2 who saw magic and lived after that scene:

-Shannon(many Times)
-Kanon(many times)
-Rosa(2 times)
-Maria
-Gohda
-Genji(2 times)
-Battler
-Kinzo

that is 8 people,6 of which saw it before the 9th twilight,and 4 of which saw it multiple times,including shannon. pretty sure not all of them were beatrice's murder accomplices lol.

2)your question implies that you accept that beatrice is a witch who can cast magic,so you are contradicting yourself my friend


"Yea, Natsuhi is a great character. No spoilers, but you'll love EP5. It's basically Natsuhi's spotlight episode.

As for the letter, what people mean is, what else could it have said? For example, "Lol hey Natsuhi I know where the gold is, beat me in a duel and it's yours" or "Hey Natsuhi, here's some hurtful secrets you never told anyone. Come fight me.""

glad to hear that!(on a side note,are episodes 5-8 the same as episodes 1-4 but with the answers to the mysteries explained?or are they whole new mysteries with different order of deaths and whatnot like episodes 1-4?)

actually,the majority of the discussions that i read acted like there was no clue whatsoever to the contents of the letter.
as for your questions. there is no need for it to say anything else. anyone who knows how proud of the ushiromya name natsuhi is,how responsible she is,and that she is now the only adult that has the ushiromya name knows that the claim,like natsuhi said,that beatrice(the mass murderer in nastuhi's eyes) is the successor to the ushiromya name,and that she is challenging natsuhi to a duel to prove/determine that right is more than enough for natsuhi,let alone the extreme anger and hate she feels towards beatrice for killing her husband(krauss),her idol(kinzo),and all the rest. no reason or need to add unnecessary theories when what we have is more than enough.

"It IS interesting that Witches aren't considered humans, huh? But if magic turns you itno an evil demon like that, what about the former, silver-haired Beatrice in the flashback, who was so kind?"

i actually said"black magic"not just magic,like"white,good,magic"(Previous beatrice,gandalf,etc)and"black,evil,magic"(current beatrice).

however,even when i said that i didnt fully believe it,as worlds that have two kinds of magic normally make it clear that there are differing kinds with different consequences,and i didnt get that feel here at all. it was just a way to try to explain the transition,and we now know why that transition happened,so no need for this one any longer.
(was mostly right about the grave part though


"I like it the way it is, personally. Although EP8 has SOME choices, and there's fan-made episodes, one of which is a Choose your own adventure where you decide everything like in a text adventure game."

interesting will make sure to check those episodes out when i finish the official game

speaking of which,i read on wiki that,in addition to the 8 official eisodes,there are two compilation discs of stuff written by ruikishi07 about umineko. are those two translated as well?would like to read them when i finish


"Eh, I wouldn't conclude any of that. Beatrice likes to be vague in order to screw with Battler, and there could be other islands named Rokkenjima. :P"

that would be the case had battler noticed the"this rokkenjima"part. however,it is pretty clear that the"screwing with him"part was the statement its self about how there isnt more than 18 after she kept acting like she couldnt say that line. considering how shocking that was to battler,i am sure he wouldnt notice the"this"part lol. more than an island with the name sounds like a coup out. that would be a pretty lame way,so i dont think that is the case like i stated at the beginning.


"Basically, it's like an RPG. He's roleplaying as a version of himself that doesn't know what's happening, and he can put thoughts and ideas in his head, but he can't 'break character', and if he wants he can let his Piece work on auto-pilot."

funnily enough,i got two similar replies about this in the same day,although in the other topic they likened it to stage play. let me copy my reply to that
",the problem with this analogy is this:in plays,the"Actors"are safe and sound. they know that no one actually dies. that what they are doing is completely fake. Here,it isnt fake. people are dying for real. battler isnt an actor who goes for a drink with his friends after they were killed. he is seeing his REAL friends and family getting REALLY murdered in brutal ways over and over again. it is the stuff of nightmares.in order to the"actor"analogy to work,there needs to not be real people actually dying. here,every single "character"in every single timeline is real. he has a consciousness,a brain,and a soul. my point was that,when the"Timezone1 Battler"plants his piece in"timezone2/3/etc",what happens to the original"Timezone2/3/etc"battlers?"


"The place Battler and Beatrice play their game is certainly seems like it could be this higher dimension magical version of the Hidden Mansion (Kuwadorian), but I don't think its the same place. Remember terms like the 'endless' fence could very well just be descriptive text of Rosa's sense of wonder."


-as we concluded before,this hidden mansion is certainly not(insert name here),and it is quite excessive to buil two hidden mansions on an island lol.
-like i said,you dont"suddenly"see a HUGE fence and MANSION right in front of you. rosa even said that the mansion is just a littler bit smaller than their's,which means that it is still pretty big.
-in every single story i read,when a similar situation happens it is always said that they reached the gate but it was closed. not here.
so it is possible,but i doubt it.


"For the sake of simplicity, Umineko treats "any human who's gained magical powers, even if they lost their humanity" as a 'Witch' for the sake of the arguments. No need to worry about word games like "Beatrice is a Demon, neener neener."

Still, remember that it's not a game if Battler can't win..."

good. just wanted to not be trolled in the future by word games lol.
and battler cretainly can win. like i said,he simply needs to prove that all crimes COULD have been done by a human in order to win


"So, I'll say that EP3 is basically the Eva episode, but PLEASE don't skip any of her scenes or anything. She's really, really important to the story, and your opinion of her is going to change in a lot of ways. She hasn't stepped into the spotlight yet.

As for why she placed the paper before any murders...she was clearly suspicious of something. You'll learn more about this later."

i highly,highly,HIGHLY foubt that my opinion of eva is going to change,but we will see i guess.and i am already shuddering in fear at your annoucement. will try to not skip her,but no promices lol XD

as for the 2nd point,please dont state information that i havent yet learned as facts in your replies,as that is a spoiler. i dont mind you using future info,but please:
-make it a possibility not a statement. for example,here you could say"maybe she was suspicious of something?remember that something made rudolf afraid that he might die. maybe that same thing made her suspicious?" That way i would take it as a suggestion made because of events i know,not a spoiler
-also,i dont know if you are doing that already or not,but i would prefer that,in additions to suggesting correct theries,that you argue also for theories that,in hind sight you know is false,but at the time seemed plausable. that way,i would have no clue weather any of your theories is one of the true ones or one of the false ones,and thus be 100% protected against concluding spoilers from anything you say

"Kyrie gets some development in EP3, but she gets most of it in EP4. All the moms pretty much get spotlight."

glad to hear that

"I don't think it was hatred that made that scene with Battler the way it is. He seemed, nervous, or anxious, or a bit too shy to say anything to him.

Remember that Kanon, of all the 'furniture', sees himself as the least human, and has no right to act like he is."

seemed to me like,not knowing battler,he assumed him to be a cruel master like the ones he already has,and misinterpreted his act of kindness as mockery.

"To be fair, consider what Beatrice offered her in return, and remember that Beatrice spent MONTHS getting on Shannon's good side and tricking her into thinking she was kind."

...no she didnt. from the very first meeting beatrice showed her true face by mocking and insulting shannon relentlessly to force her to do what she wanted. i also iirc that first meeting was only a couple of days before shannon broke the mirror,according to her inner dialogue in that scene. could be wrong on this point though.

"Sorry for the long response post, but I really loved reading your thoughts as you go along! Please keep going! "

i actually far prefer long replies to short ones lol,as it makes me feel that i didnt write that mountain of words for nothing XD. will continue posting here for sure as long as there is fun discussion to be had

SP:Forgot to add this thought originally:

"The human Beatrice was a"Vessel/container"for the real beatrice. however,she still had her own mind/feelings/way of thinking/etc,so she was far from a perfect replica,which is why she was struggling with her identity and thinking"am i just a simple,worthless vessel,just like a bottle of water?or am i an actual human with my own thoughts and believes?"
also,a few important ?s :
--we dont know weather the baby the soul was moved to was a real baby or not. if it was,then it should have a soul of its own in addition to beatrice's. that would also mean that the"current beatrice's appearance"is not the same as it was back before all this(we never see beatrice's face in her flashback)but is the appearance of that human kid her soul was placed in.also,where did kinzo even get the child from? if it wasnt,then how come it grows naturally like a proper child would?"

Last edited by FFTHEWINNER; 2016-07-10 at 11:07.
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Old 2016-07-10, 13:53   Link #10
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER
and i see your point. battler would never believe kanon if he told him. still,why didnt battler be like"hey guys...you kinda died. how the f*** are you talking to me?and how did you die?and where are we?and WTF is going on?"
Because after meeting Beatrice he wrote it off as an illusion. He seems to accept the premise that he could be dead and this 'witch' can weave convincing illusions, but since it's not Earth he doesn't care.

Quote:
sorry but you are contradicting yourself. you just said the tea parties are canon. being canon means they can be used to solve the game just like all other scenes. you cant say"this bit of them is canon but this bit isnt". they are canon,and their simple existence proves beatrice's magic. the simple fact that we have a game at all proves beatrice's magic. unless you can explain using human methods how battler is seeing the dead and how he can go back in time,to the extreme past even.
Er, no, I'm explaining a piece of the premise that isn't immediately obvious, here. The 'Game' Battler and Beatrice plays only refers to Rokkenjima island, and 'magic' as Battler and Beatrice seem to define it only seems to refer to the idea of supernatural events happening in the human world Battler came from.

The world where they play the game, and the events within it, they seem to categorize as a third force called "Meta" for the sake of having a polite intellectual game. Basically, the Meta-World is where they're having their internet theory discussion about whether this story they're reading is Mystery or Fantasy genre.

Quote:
the game between battler and beatrice is about who did the murders. beatrice wins if battler admits with all his heart that the murders could only happen using beatrice's magic. battler wins if he can prove that all of the murders could have been commited by a human. those are the winning conditions,which means that the essence of the game is"could a human commit these crimes or not",not"is beatrice a witch or not",despite fake claims otherwise.
Pretty much, yea.

Quote:
1)let us look at the list of people in episode 2 who saw magic and lived after that scene:

-Shannon(many Times)
-Kanon(many times)
-Rosa(2 times)
-Maria
-Gohda
-Genji(2 times)
-Battler
-Kinzo

that is 8 people,6 of which saw it before the 9th twilight,and 4 of which saw it multiple times,including shannon. pretty sure not all of them were beatrice's murder accomplices lol.
Just to propose something really silly, here. Say the culprit is Shannon, Kanon, Genji, or Gohda in this scenario. Or perhaps Kinzo. The Culprit's magic testimony is obviously a lie, Maria is a deceived child, Rosa is an accomplice, and the servants are all ordered to cooperate, such as "Shannon, Gohda, tell them you saw this kind of magic killing or YOU'RE NEXT."

Battler lost the second round and so was shown all kinds of nonsense.

Quote:
2)your question implies that you accept that beatrice is a witch who can cast magic,so you are contradicting yourself my friend
No, my question implies Beatrice can show Battler convincing illusions and that he loses his right to trust even his own eyes after the game ends.

Quote:
glad to hear that!(on a side note,are episodes 5-8 the same as episodes 1-4 but with the answers to the mysteries explained?or are they whole new mysteries with different order of deaths and whatnot like episodes 1-4?)
The latter. They're new Gameboards, but they're called Core arcs because they reveal some things that allow you to decipher the truth on your own. A thing that many readers are mad about is that the answers are never fully explained, like a true puzzle (an objectively 'right answer' exists though, and the Author's revealed it after the story's completion).

Quote:
speaking of which,i read on wiki that,in addition to the 8 official eisodes,there are two compilation discs of stuff written by ruikishi07 about umineko. are those two translated as well?would like to read them when i finish
I believe so. They're mostly short stories that aren't really canon, like one story where Lambdadelta sicks a Giant Killer Fan on the grandchildren.

Quote:
that would be the case had battler noticed the"this rokkenjima"part. however,it is pretty clear that the"screwing with him"part was the statement its self about how there isnt more than 18 after she kept acting like she couldnt say that line. considering how shocking that was to battler,i am sure he wouldnt notice the"this"part lol. more than an island with the name sounds like a coup out. that would be a pretty lame way,so i dont think that is the case like i stated at the beginning.
I'm also going to bring up not to be too concerned about articles like "the", "this" and "that", because they don't really exist in Japanese as you're familiar with them so the translator team basically had to wing it. XD

Quote:
",the problem with this analogy is this:in plays,the"Actors"are safe and sound. they know that no one actually dies. that what they are doing is completely fake. Here,it isnt fake. people are dying for real. battler isnt an actor who goes for a drink with his friends after they were killed. he is seeing his REAL friends and family getting REALLY murdered in brutal ways over and over again. it is the stuff of nightmares.in order to the"actor"analogy to work,there needs to not be real people actually dying. here,every single "character"in every single timeline is real. he has a consciousness,a brain,and a soul. my point was that,when the"Timezone1 Battler"plants his piece in"timezone2/3/etc",what happens to the original"Timezone2/3/etc"battlers?"
Imagine a telepathic link. Piece-Battler is his own person and does what he wants, but Meta-Battler can transmit actions or ideas into his head, and Piece-Battler will probably do them because they're the same individual.

Meta-Battler can't make Piece-Battler act totally out of character, though, like "On this turn I suddenly attack Rosa as soon as I'm on the boat screaming 'ADMIT IT, YOU MURDERER'".

Quote:
-as we concluded before,this hidden mansion is certainly not(insert name here),and it is quite excessive to buil two hidden mansions on an island lol.
-like i said,you dont"suddenly"see a HUGE fence and MANSION right in front of you. rosa even said that the mansion is just a littler bit smaller than their's,which means that it is still pretty big.
-in every single story i read,when a similar situation happens it is always said that they reached the gate but it was closed. not here.
so it is possible,but i doubt it.
Keep in mind that Rokkenjima island is actually REALLY large. It's two kilometers around. That's plenty of room to have an elaborate, large, hidden mansion if Kinzo decided he wanted one.

Quote:
as for the 2nd point,please dont state information that i havent yet learned as facts in your replies,as that is a spoiler. i dont mind you using future info,but please:
-make it a possibility not a statement. for example,here you could say"maybe she was suspicious of something?remember that something made rudolf afraid that he might die. maybe that same thing made her suspicious?" That way i would take it as a suggestion made because of events i know,not a spoiler
-also,i dont know if you are doing that already or not,but i would prefer that,in additions to suggesting correct theries,that you argue also for theories that,in hind sight you know is false,but at the time seemed plausable. that way,i would have no clue weather any of your theories is one of the true ones or one of the false ones,and thus be 100% protected against concluding spoilers from anything you say
Sorry about that, I was just referring to a line of dialog she made in EP1 about how she placed the paper slip for "reasons she had". I just wanted to assure you that wasn't a throw-away excuse. ^_^;

Quote:
...no she didnt. from the very first meeting beatrice showed her true face by mocking and insulting shannon relentlessly to force her to do what she wanted. i also iirc that first meeting was only a couple of days before shannon broke the mirror,according to her inner dialogue in that scene. could be wrong on this point though.
No, it was a longer period, I think. Either way, despite her mocking nature she did put on a more gentle face; the two literally had a tea party on the beach, and Beatrice DID grant her wish, exactly as she promised.

Quote:
--we dont know weather the baby the soul was moved to was a real baby or not. if it was,then it should have a soul of its own in addition to beatrice's. that would also mean that the"current beatrice's appearance"is not the same as it was back before all this(we never see beatrice's face in her flashback)but is the appearance of that human kid her soul was placed in.also,where did kinzo even get the child from? if it wasnt,then how come it grows naturally like a proper child would?"
The magical explanation is that Kinzo created a homunculus as a sort of spare clone body to hold her soul, so it should be a straight reincarnation scenario.

As for a non-magical solution, well...where would you get a baby that strongly resembles your dead lover? Aside from the obvious idea of "It's his mistress's child", could this be the reason Kinzo started up a bunch of orphanages with his own money?
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Old 2016-07-13, 14:02   Link #11
FFTHEWINNER
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Reached after "current vs old beato"battle.those scenes were certainly...interesting,for lack of a better word. it felt like they contradicted a ton of previous info though.

-first contradiction:beatrice should not be able to enter Kinzo's room. maria clearly said that in episode 1. so how did she manage to do it?

-second contradiction: beatrice was shown talking with the dead jessica and kanon in episode 2,but when shannon and genji died here it was said that they"went to a place where the witch and her minions couldnt reach them,no matter how much they tried". this one might be explainable in three ways. one is saying that ep2 scene didnt actually happen,but that is too simple and too expected of an answer that i doubt it. second explanation is that what genji did to them was different than"normal murder"like what happened in episode 2. it was more akin to a"shut down"of some sort,which might have a completely different result. third theory,which i find more likely, depends on the old"dead with regrets remain where they are killed"believes. jessica and kanon in episode 2 clearly had huge regrets left,while shannon and genji clearly didnt. the witch has power over those souls with huge regrets,but not over peaceful souls. that would also explain why she always tries to infuriate/anger/cause regrets in those who are dying,and why she hates people with no regrets.

-3rd contradiction:this is an interesting one. there is no proof at all in the epitaph that ANYONE,other than the one that finds the key and does the murders,will reach the golden land. however,the general consciousness,and what beatrice claims in this scene,is that up to 5 people,who are the ones not sacrificed,can reach the golden land while the souls of the sacrificed furniture will perish. however again,the tip on shannon's dead body in episode 1 says"EVERYONE will be revived in the golden land".
so which one do we believe here? well,the epitaph is the center of the entire story. it cant be wrong,as everything in the story depends on it. the general consciousness can be wrong. beatrice could be lying,even though she claims she keeps her promises she never claimed in red that she keeps all her promises. only promise claimed in red was about the epitaph being true in fact. the tips could also be wrong. that all means that the 1st choice is the correct one. only the holder of the key can reach the golden land. that means that "purgatorio"is not the same as the golden land.

-4th contradiction:earlier in the episode,beatrice clearly states that she believes her mentor did not reach the status of"endless witch". however,in the battle between current and old beatrices(which reminded me a lot of yugi battles btw,though that might be because a certain poster said a while ago that kumasawa's death in episode 3 reminded him of yugi lol),old beatrice continuously asks for her"endless status"back.

-it seems like "old beatrice"was sleeping inside kumasawa without her knowledge,and awoken a couple of days before the battle,similar to the main heroine in Sekirei. this is supported by how kumasawa died before. if old beatrice was awoken inside her all along she certainly wouldnt have died the chump death she died in episode 2 lol.

as for my replies:

Quote:
Because after meeting Beatrice he wrote it off as an illusion. He seems to
accept the premise that he could be dead and this 'witch' can weave
convincing illusions, but since it's not Earth he doesn't care.
fair theory,although i find it weird that he didnt remember how he
himself died if that was the case.

Quote:
Er, no, I'm explaining a piece of the premise that isn't immediately
obvious, here. The 'Game' Battler and Beatrice plays only refers to
Rokkenjima island, and 'magic' as Battler and Beatrice seem to define it
only seems to refer to the idea of supernatural events happening in the
human world Battler came from.

The world where they play the game, and the events within it, they seem
to categorize as a third force called "Meta" for the sake of having a
polite intellectual game. Basically, the Meta-World is where they're
having their internet theory discussion about whether this story they're
reading is Mystery or Fantasy genre.



Pretty much, yea.
i think we might be misunderstanding each other here. it seems like you do not disagree with the statement"Beatrice is indeed a witch who lives in her own dimension" but want to say that point is irrelevant to the game battler and Beatrice are currently playing. in that case,i fully agree with you . i already stated that their game is about who the true murderer is,not about what beatrice is.

that being said,we KNOW beatrice can physically manifest herself in the game worlds(she confirmed that in red,like i said) and i believe that we also know that she can use magic there too. thus,i think that,as long as beatrice isnt directly responsible for any of the murders,battler could still win even IF she was indirectly responsible for some(using her"golden butterflies"for example). as long as she simply helps in making the situation easier for the killer but not kill herself that doesnt break the rules imo. she has a common interest in the ritual succeeding,after all.

Quote:
No, my question implies Beatrice can show Battler convincing illusions
and that he loses his right to trust even his own eyes after the game
ends.
again,based on the point above,i think you mean to say that what happens after beatrice is revived in the 9th twilight doesnt necessarily have to have any connection to before the 9th twilight. i agree with that. beatrice is fully revived in the 9th twilight. she can do anything she wants after that because she is in full power again. that is why i mentioned before that the "kill theories" i will make after i finish the 3rd chapter will only be up the 9th twilight,because after that the answer is beatrice.

Quote:
Just to propose something really silly, here. Say the culprit is
Shannon, Kanon, Genji, or Gohda in this scenario. Or perhaps Kinzo. The
Culprit's magic testimony is obviously a lie, Maria is a deceived child,
Rosa is an accomplice, and the servants are all ordered to cooperate,
such as "Shannon, Gohda, tell them you saw this kind of magic killing or
YOU'RE NEXT."

Battler lost the second round and so was shown all kinds of nonsense.
"propose something really silly, here." you said it not i . and,like i said,6 out of 8 saw it before battler lost.

Quote:
the latter. They're new Gameboards, but they're called Core arcs because
they reveal some things that allow you to decipher the truth on your
own. A thing that many readers are mad about is that the answers are
never fully explained, like a true puzzle (an objectively 'right answer'
exists though, and the Author's revealed it after the story's
completion).
oh. ok. glad to hear that

Quote:
I believe so. They're mostly short stories that aren't really canon,
like one story where Lambdadelta sicks a Giant Killer Fan on the
grandchildren.
sounds interesting lol

Quote:
I'm also going to bring up not to be too concerned about articles like
"the", "this" and "that", because they don't really exist in Japanese as
you're familiar with them so the translator team basically had to wing
it. XD
interesting. Beatrice said"Kono Rokkenjima",which afaik translates accurately to"this Rokkenjima". will ask a japanese expert and i know and comeback to you on this one

that being said,i heard before i even started the series that it has to do with different dimensions and timelines,so that was something i believed from the beginning. this line just seemed to confirm it

Quote:
Imagine a telepathic link. Piece-Battler is his own person and does what
he wants, but Meta-Battler can transmit actions or ideas into his head,
and Piece-Battler will probably do them because they're the same
individual.

Meta-Battler can't make Piece-Battler act totally out of character,
though, like "On this turn I suddenly attack Rosa as soon as I'm on the
boat screaming 'ADMIT IT, YOU MURDERER'".
oh ok. this actually makes perfect sense. thanks for the explanation . i assume they also share their feelings,as every time one of them is in a certain mood the other is in it as well.
however,this unfortunately doesnt answer my other thought. if rosa traveled through realms,which is a possible theory as i mentioned,then what happened to that realm's rosa? guess i am gonna have to wait and see on this one lol

Quote:
Keep in mind that Rokkenjima island is actually REALLY large. It's two
kilometers around. That's plenty of room to have an elaborate, large,
hidden mansion if Kinzo decided he wanted one.
true,but why two hidden mansions?my other points as well.

Quote:
Sorry about that, I was just referring to a line of dialog she made in
EP1 about how she placed the paper slip for "reasons she had". I just
wanted to assure you that wasn't a throw-away excuse. ^_^;
no problem. just something to keep in mind for the future

Quote:
No, it was a longer period, I think. Either way, despite her mocking
nature she did put on a more gentle face; the two literally had a tea
party on the beach, and Beatrice DID grant her wish, exactly as she
promised.
fair points,but i still think the way she treated her in their first meeting should have been a huge warning to shannon.

Quote:
The magical explanation is that Kinzo created a homunculus as a sort of
spare clone body to hold her soul, so it should be a straight
reincarnation scenario.

As for a non-magical solution, well...where would you get a baby that
strongly resembles your dead lover? Aside from the obvious idea of "It's
his mistress's child", could this be the reason Kinzo started up a
bunch of orphanages with his own money?
i think the non-magical explanation is the correct one here,because:
-Kinzo,as beatrice stated,is not naturally a magician/magically gifted.the opposite actually,as he is hugely magic resistant. his hardwork for decades is what allowed him to become a magician,so i doubt he would be able to create something that complicated without it taking him years and years,which is time he didnt have.
-that would neatly explain the reason for the orphanage.
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Old 2016-07-14, 06:37   Link #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER
-first contradiction:beatrice should not be able to enter Kinzo's room. maria clearly said that in episode 1. so how did she manage to do it?
If the magical narrative isn't true, Beatrice isn't required to be consistent about it. Perhaps it was always a self-imposed rule, or perhaps, like how her magic getting stronger allows her to summon more demon friends, she's able to trivialize things that used to be obstacles.

Quote:
-second contradiction: beatrice was shown talking with the dead jessica and kanon in episode 2,but when shannon and genji died here it was said that they"went to a place where the witch and her minions couldnt reach them,no matter how much they tried". this one might be explainable in three ways. one is saying that ep2 scene didnt actually happen,but that is too simple and too expected of an answer that i doubt it. second explanation is that what genji did to them was different than"normal murder"like what happened in episode 2. it was more akin to a"shut down"of some sort,which might have a completely different result. third theory,which i find more likely, depends on the old"dead with regrets remain where they are killed"believes. jessica and kanon in episode 2 clearly had huge regrets left,while shannon and genji clearly didnt. the witch has power over those souls with huge regrets,but not over peaceful souls. that would also explain why she always tries to infuriate/anger/cause regrets in those who are dying,and why she hates people with no regrets.
Do remember that those ghosts appeared after Battler started imagining them to himself, worrying about them and the sorts of regrets they died with, having to hear Kanon be slandered and unable to speak for him.

Mayhaps Battler engaged in a slight bit of magic unknowingly.

Quote:
-3rd contradiction:this is an interesting one. there is no proof at all in the epitaph that ANYONE,other than the one that finds the key and does the murders,will reach the golden land. however,the general consciousness,and what beatrice claims in this scene,is that up to 5 people,who are the ones not sacrificed,can reach the golden land while the souls of the sacrificed furniture will perish. however again,the tip on shannon's dead body in episode 1 says"EVERYONE will be revived in the golden land".
so which one do we believe here? well,the epitaph is the center of the entire story. it cant be wrong,as everything in the story depends on it. the general consciousness can be wrong. beatrice could be lying,even though she claims she keeps her promises she never claimed in red that she keeps all her promises. only promise claimed in red was about the epitaph being true in fact. the tips could also be wrong. that all means that the 1st choice is the correct one. only the holder of the key can reach the golden land. that means that "purgatorio"is not the same as the golden land.
Remember that the person who reaches the Golden Land receives Four Treasures, one of which is the revival of all the dead. In the EP1 ending scroll, the four children being invited seems to have granted them all a wish. Jessica wanted Kanon, George wanted Shannon, they were there. Maria wanted Rosa. Maybe she was going to be there but wasn't really worked into the scene since Rosa never really believes in Beatrice much.

Battler probably would have asked for everyone else, if he believed.

Quote:
-4th contradiction:earlier in the episode,beatrice clearly states that she believes her mentor did not reach the status of"endless witch". however,in the battle between current and old beatrices(which reminded me a lot of yugi battles btw,though that might be because a certain poster said a while ago that kumasawa's death in episode 3 reminded him of yugi lol),old beatrice continuously asks for her"endless status"back.
Perhaps because the old Beatrice never played with human lives like a cruel god, Beatrice never considers her as having become a 'true' Endless Witch.

Quote:
-it seems like "old beatrice"was sleeping inside kumasawa without her knowledge,and awoken a couple of days before the battle,similar to the main heroine in Sekirei. this is supported by how kumasawa died before. if old beatrice was awoken inside her all along she certainly wouldnt have died the chump death she died in episode 2 lol.
According to her, in that scene, she awakened only now because of the strengthening magical presence on the island. The Fantasy/Magic creatures have a sideways awareness of time with the loops, so it seems that the magic side on the island gets stronger in each Game. This eventually pushes Virgilia into awakening.

Atleast, assuming this is real. :P

Quote:
fair theory,although i find it weird that he didnt remember how he
himself died if that was the case.
Ghosts not remembering how they died is a fairly common trope.

Quote:
i think we might be misunderstanding each other here. it seems like you do not disagree with the statement"Beatrice is indeed a witch who lives in her own dimension" but want to say that point is irrelevant to the game battler and Beatrice are currently playing. in that case,i fully agree with you . i already stated that their game is about who the true murderer is,not about what beatrice is.

that being said,we KNOW beatrice can physically manifest herself in the game worlds(she confirmed that in red,like i said) and i believe that we also know that she can use magic there too. thus,i think that,as long as beatrice isnt directly responsible for any of the murders,battler could still win even IF she was indirectly responsible for some(using her"golden butterflies"for example). as long as she simply helps in making the situation easier for the killer but not kill herself that doesnt break the rules imo. she has a common interest in the ritual succeeding,after all.
She didn't actually confirm it in red. By her own admission she can't use the Red Truth to confirm magic or there's no game. When she says 'Beatrice' does this or that in Red Truth, she's referring to whoever is using the name Beatrice, whether that's a witch, a human named Beatrice, or a human pretending to be Beatrice.

Battler's win condition seems to be to deny Beatrice's magic on the Gameboard entirley, as demonstrated when Beatrice challenges him on things that have nothing to do with murder.

You're also neglecting that Kinzo and Beatrice both describe their magic being stronger with greater risk. If Beatrice risks her life and existence, then when she wins no one will be able to deny her existence and magic. It's a gamble, and the most fun thing she ever found to do with her thousand years of life. :3

Quote:
again,based on the point above,i think you mean to say that what happens after beatrice is revived in the 9th twilight doesnt necessarily have to have any connection to before the 9th twilight. i agree with that. beatrice is fully revived in the 9th twilight. she can do anything she wants after that because she is in full power again. that is why i mentioned before that the "kill theories" i will make after i finish the 3rd chapter will only be up the 9th twilight,because after that the answer is beatrice.
No, my proposed cut-off point is the 10th Twilight, the midnight of the second day where the door to the Golden Land supposedly opens. At this point, the Game is concluded for the round and the pieces of the Gameboard are swept up. It is the only time magical imagery ever happens infront of Piece Battler's eyes, when that normally breaks the rules of the game.

Quote:
"propose something really silly, here." you said it not i . and,like i said,6 out of 8 saw it before battler lost.
We still can't discredit that a murderer forced them to say things at gun point or bribed them with gold or the promise of safety.

Quote:
interesting. Beatrice said"Kono Rokkenjima",which afaik translates accurately to"this Rokkenjima". will ask a japanese expert and i know and comeback to you on this one

that being said,i heard before i even started the series that it has to do with different dimensions and timelines,so that was something i believed from the beginning. this line just seemed to confirm it
I was born in Japan, you can take my word for it. XD

I will say though, since the loops start in 1986, that it doesn't make sense for things to be different decades before.

Quote:
oh ok. this actually makes perfect sense. thanks for the explanation . i assume they also share their feelings,as every time one of them is in a certain mood the other is in it as well.
however,this unfortunately doesnt answer my other thought. if rosa traveled through realms,which is a possible theory as i mentioned,then what happened to that realm's rosa? guess i am gonna have to wait and see on this one lol
EP2 Rosa was eaten by Goats. Her soul was revived in the higher realm so Beatrice could mess with her.

Quote:
true,but why two hidden mansions?my other points as well.
Er, there's only one hidden mansion?

The buildings on Rokkenjima the story has mentioned is the mansion, the guesthouse, the toolshed, the church, and the Hidden Mansion.

Quote:
-Kinzo,as beatrice stated,is not naturally a magician/magically gifted.the opposite actually,as he is hugely magic resistant. his hardwork for decades is what allowed him to become a magician,so i doubt he would be able to create something that complicated without it taking him years and years,which is time he didnt have.
Well, it's Kinzo. He might have prepared the homunculus ahead of time...
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Old 2016-07-16, 14:44   Link #13
FFTHEWINNER
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"If the magical narrative isn't true, Beatrice isn't required to be consistent about it. Perhaps it was always a self-imposed rule, or perhaps, like how her magic getting stronger allows her to summon more demon friends, she's able to trivialize things that used to be obstacles."

so she is basically"leveling up her stats" XD. a possibility i guess lol.


"Do remember that those ghosts appeared after Battler started imagining them to himself, worrying about them and the sorts of regrets they died with, having to hear Kanon be slandered and unable to speak for him.

Mayhaps Battler engaged in a slight bit of magic unknowingly."

thing is,neither piece battler nor meta battler saw the ghosts,otherwise they would have commented on them. if it was like you said then they would have seen them.

also,now that i think about it,that line has yet another contrandiction hidden inside it. if the place where shannon and genji's soul went is a "a place where the witch and her minions couldnt reach them,no matter how much they tried",then how could they be revived in the golden land?if beatrice cant reach their soul then she certainly cant revive them.


"Remember that the person who reaches the Golden Land receives Four Treasures, one of which is the revival of all the dead. In the EP1 ending scroll, the four children being invited seems to have granted them all a wish. Jessica wanted Kanon, George wanted Shannon, they were there. Maria wanted Rosa. Maybe she was going to be there but wasn't really worked into the scene since Rosa never really believes in Beatrice much.

Battler probably would have asked for everyone else, if he believed."

thing is,the epitaph also states this:
"The witch will praise the wise, and shall bestow four treasures.
One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land.
One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead.
One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love.
One shall be, to put the witch to sleep for all time."

those lines mean that all 4 treasures shall be bestewed upon the one person,but the ending scroll says that each got one wish,which doesnt fit what was said.

after thinking som emore,i believe that the epitaph could be used in two ways
--as a riddle to be solved,and if solved the one to solve it will recieve all that is described,including the witch being put to sleep forever(aka dying). if used this way everything about killing is metaphorical.
--or as a method to revive the witch,and what happens after that is up to the witch's whims. if used this way everything about killing is literal.

"Perhaps because the old Beatrice never played with human lives like a cruel god, Beatrice never considers her as having become a 'true' Endless Witch."

you know,i would have agreed with you,if not for a very annoying glitch :/. you see,i was playing this portion on my phone(using the great VNDS program and for some reason,a glitch happened during battler's talk with"previous beatrice"that showed me a face that shouldnt appear at this point(as i checked the pc version and it doesnt).the face i saw was "old beatrice"with crazy,yandere eyes(you know the type). it was quite scary tbh lol. current beatrice's scary faces are full of mockery,but that face had insanity printed all over it. i did get quite annoyed when i learned it wasnt supposed to be there,as i have been spoiled by a f***ing glitch lol.
so yeah,for this reason i cant say that old beatrice was a great women any longer

"According to her, in that scene, she awakened only now because of the strengthening magical presence on the island. The Fantasy/Magic creatures have a sideways awareness of time with the loops, so it seems that the magic side on the island gets stronger in each Game. This eventually pushes Virgilia into awakening.

Atleast, assuming this is real. :P"

you know,it would be too easy to say"all magic murder scenes are imaginary and dont matter". but that is exactly why i believe that statement is false. because it would be too easy.
the scenes matter,but they arent 100% true either. that is why i always keep them in the back of my mind and try to find a happy medium. so far,my"Beatrice's Hypnotising Butterflies"explanation is the best one i have,but i always evolve my pokemon,so we will see what the next evolution has in store for us

"Ghosts not remembering how they died is a fairly common trope."

fair point.

"She didn't actually confirm it in red. By her own admission she can't use the Red Truth to confirm magic or there's no game. When she says 'Beatrice' does this or that in Red Truth, she's referring to whoever is using the name Beatrice, whether that's a witch, a human named Beatrice, or a human pretending to be Beatrice.

Battler's win condition seems to be to deny Beatrice's magic on the Gameboard entirley, as demonstrated when Beatrice challenges him on things that have nothing to do with murder.

You're also neglecting that Kinzo and Beatrice both describe their magic being stronger with greater risk. If Beatrice risks her life and existence, then when she wins no one will be able to deny her existence and magic. It's a gamble, and the most fun thing she ever found to do with her thousand years of life. :3"

what she confirmed in red is that her"piece on the gameboard"is indeed that,and not a fake. to quote my old post:
"-the beatrice in the game in episode 2 IS the same beatrice the witch,not a fake. it is her"existence inside the game"just like battler has his. this is confirmed in red text,as beato said in red"the key I gave to maria"

i dont remember beatrice challenging him on anything other than the locked rooms of murder. care to refresh my memory?

i dont see what that has to do with what i said. beatrice IS risking her life and existence already,as if the riddle is solved she will lose and die. her helping the killer doesnt negate that.

"No, my proposed cut-off point is the 10th Twilight, the midnight of the second day where the door to the Golden Land supposedly opens. At this point, the Game is concluded for the round and the pieces of the Gameboard are swept up. It is the only time magical imagery ever happens infront of Piece Battler's eyes, when that normally breaks the rules of the game."

but how can you specify when the 9th twilight ends and the 10th twilight begins?those"twilights"are clearly "stages"pretty much and do not represent any specific time limit.they are done when the stuff that is supposed to happen in them is done. considering that the 2nd part of the 9th twilight is"none shall be left alive",and when the clock is at 12 there are clearly living people still,i'd strongly argue that the 12th hour is not the beginning of the 10th twilight. infact,it has so far been more logical to assume it as the time the witch is revived,AKA the 9th twilight.

"We still can't discredit that a murderer forced them to say things at gun point or bribed them with gold or the promise of safety."

true. we cant discredit anything in a game like umineko. but that doesnt make the chance that a full 3rd of the people on the island are collaborating with the killer any higher. you'd think atleast some of them would rat him out when they begin to see their accomplices die and whatever he promised them not happening.

"I was born in Japan, you can take my word for it. XD"

strange then,because i PMed chronotrig,who is a part of the official translation team,with this question. here is his answer:
"As for your point on "this Rokkenjima", it absolutely can be used in the way you described, for the reasons you said. "kono" isn't a null word that's just used to tie a sentence together, and I don't think it was used unintentionally. Their point about translation to English being a sloppy business is true, and a big part of our re-translation was removing ambiguous things or lines that gave unintended impressions. But this specific line is straightforward, and our new translation has it exactly the same."
so he fully agrees with me about this line

"I will say though, since the loops start in 1986, that it doesn't make sense for things to be different decades before"

i dont get what you mean by this line tbh. care to clarify?

"EP2 Rosa was eaten by Goats. Her soul was revived in the higher realm so Beatrice could mess with her."

you misunderstood what i said. i was referring to an older theory i had:
"i have a theory that the place "human beato"was in was similar to the"tea party"place. a location outside the normal worlds. afterall,you dont"suddenly"see a HUGE fence and mansion right infront of you. also her description about the fence seemingly being endless. however,how do we know that the"realm"they exited to was the same"realm"rosa was from?and if it wasnt then what happened to that realm's rosa?i need the game to explain the rules of "realm travel"before i embrace this theory."

"Er, there's only one hidden mansion?

The buildings on Rokkenjima the story has mentioned is the mansion, the guesthouse, the toolshed, the church, and the Hidden Mansion."

not according to my theory here:
"-butler confirmed the existence of a hidden mansion named(forgot the name lol) in red,but said"this is the manson we are talking about"in black. he then said in red that beato was in a hidden mansion but didnt name it,even though it would have been easier for him to say"she was in(insert name here)"instead of"in a hidden mansion". this leads me to believe that,while she was in a hidden mansion on rokkenjima,she wasnt in"(insert name here)"hidden mansion."

"Well, it's Kinzo. He might have prepared the homunculus ahead of time... "

which would mean that he had known years prior that beatrice would suicide. that is impossible.


reached after "battler's tube discussion with virgilia"

-why would virgilia,a sorceress herself,help battler when his goal is to deny any and all magic?say two goblin clans are warring with each other,and a third party wants to kill every single goblin in existence,why would one of the clans help him when his victory means that they all lose?yes,she wants beatrice to lose,but virgilia herself loses too if battler wins.

-the point of this part was apparently to say that,whenever we see magic being done on the island within those two days,it is as if a narrator is telling the story from a magic point of view and we shouldnt take it literally.however,we should search for clues within the crime scenes and try to construct what happened from there.i accept that,but i still think the magic scenes hold valuable clues.
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Old 2016-07-17, 12:55   Link #14
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
thing is,neither piece battler nor meta battler saw the ghosts,otherwise they would have commented on them. if it was like you said then they would have seen them.
Well, actually they did...as an Imagine spot. He was standing there imagine what it would be like to be them in that moment, in order to fuel his thought process of protecting Kanon's innocence. The fact that it shows up in Battler's personal narration, while he's in the room, means it's something he's aware of as a thought in his head.

Quote:
also,now that i think about it,that line has yet another contrandiction hidden inside it. if the place where shannon and genji's soul went is a "a place where the witch and her minions couldnt reach them,no matter how much they tried",then how could they be revived in the golden land?if beatrice cant reach their soul then she certainly cant revive them.
She might not be able to reach them by force, but she can invite them to her paradise.

Or perhaps the contradiction is an intentional flaw in the Magical Narrative.

Quote:

thing is,the epitaph also states this:
"The witch will praise the wise, and shall bestow four treasures.
One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land.
One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead.
One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love.
One shall be, to put the witch to sleep for all time."

those lines mean that all 4 treasures shall be bestewed upon the one person,but the ending scroll says that each got one wish,which doesnt fit what was said.

after thinking som emore,i believe that the epitaph could be used in two ways
--as a riddle to be solved,and if solved the one to solve it will recieve all that is described,including the witch being put to sleep forever(aka dying). if used this way everything about killing is metaphorical.
--or as a method to revive the witch,and what happens after that is up to the witch's whims. if used this way everything about killing is literal.
The way its intended to be read is that the 4 treasures are available to however gets to the Golden Land. She has four prizes, you can take all four or just one, and multiple people means they can all pick their own prize.

Quote:
you know,i would have agreed with you,if not for a very annoying glitch :/. you see,i was playing this portion on my phone(using the great VNDS program and for some reason,a glitch happened during battler's talk with"previous beatrice"that showed me a face that shouldnt appear at this point(as i checked the pc version and it doesnt).the face i saw was "old beatrice"with crazy,yandere eyes(you know the type). it was quite scary tbh lol. current beatrice's scary faces are full of mockery,but that face had insanity printed all over it. i did get quite annoyed when i learned it wasnt supposed to be there,as i have been spoiled by a f***ing glitch lol.
so yeah,for this reason i cant say that old beatrice was a great women any longer
Don't worry about that face. As a Witch, Virgilia is still able to play pranks, or be deceptive; and Beatrice has already shown the ability to impersonate people with her magic.

I will say, without spoilers, that face is used in a positive/comedic light sometimes.

Quote:
you know,it would be too easy to say"all magic murder scenes are imaginary and dont matter". but that is exactly why i believe that statement is false. because it would be too easy.
the scenes matter,but they arent 100% true either. that is why i always keep them in the back of my mind and try to find a happy medium. so far,my"Beatrice's Hypnotising Butterflies"explanation is the best one i have,but i always evolve my pokemon,so we will see what the next evolution has in store for us
No one's saying they 100% don't matter. If they're not real, they still have symbolic truth. Beatrice using magic to murder Rosa still implies that someone murdered her. Kanon having a magical duel to protect Jessica still implies he returns her feelings.

Even if the scenes are lies, they're meant to contain clues. Think about why these scenes are crafted in this exact manner, and how they can help Battler even if he can't believe his eyes.

Quote:
what she confirmed in red is that her"piece on the gameboard"is indeed that,and not a fake. to quote my old post:
"-the beatrice in the game in episode 2 IS the same beatrice the witch,not a fake. it is her"existence inside the game"just like battler has his. this is confirmed in red text,as beato said in red"the key I gave to maria"

i dont remember beatrice challenging him on anything other than the locked rooms of murder. care to refresh my memory?
Beatrice using magic to restore Maria's marshmallow, or her rose, or giving her the letter, for example. Her mere existence and magic tricks are a thing to be challenged, because his goal is to deny the existence of Beatrice the Witch.

Her piece on the gameboard doesn't mean anything. It could refer to a human Beatrice, someone impersonating Beatrice, or a complete fabrication every witness is lying about seeing for some sort of conspiracy.

Whichever is true, that would be her 'existence'.

Quote:
but how can you specify when the 9th twilight ends and the 10th twilight begins?those"twilights"are clearly "stages"pretty much and do not represent any specific time limit.they are done when the stuff that is supposed to happen in them is done. considering that the 2nd part of the 9th twilight is"none shall be left alive",and when the clock is at 12 there are clearly living people still,i'd strongly argue that the 12th hour is not the beginning of the 10th twilight. infact,it has so far been more logical to assume it as the time the witch is revived,AKA the 9th twilight.
The 9th Twilight is generally treated as any murders after the 8th but before Midnight, October 6th, 1986. The 10th Twilight is anything after at or after that moment.

Basically, no events on the Gameboard can occur after the 10th Twilight. It's the point where the clock is stopped.

Quote:
true. we cant discredit anything in a game like umineko. but that doesnt make the chance that a full 3rd of the people on the island are collaborating with the killer any higher. you'd think atleast some of them would rat him out when they begin to see their accomplices die and whatever he promised them not happening.
Well, assume for the sake of argument that it IS the case. How would you imagine a human culprit using their power, money, and charisma to make all these people cooperate?

And furthermore, how many of those who'd have the courage to speak out would have the knowledge of what's really going on?

And who's to say that's not why Beatrice murders some of them first?

Quote:
strange then,because i PMed chronotrig,who is a part of the official translation team,with this question. here is his answer:
"As for your point on "this Rokkenjima", it absolutely can be used in the way you described, for the reasons you said. "kono" isn't a null word that's just used to tie a sentence together, and I don't think it was used unintentionally. Their point about translation to English being a sloppy business is true, and a big part of our re-translation was removing ambiguous things or lines that gave unintended impressions. But this specific line is straightforward, and our new translation has it exactly the same."
so he fully agrees with me about this line
Fair enough. I won't really argue the point, since semantics isn't really the point of this battle against the witch, though. For all intents and purposes there's only one Rokkenjima, unless the Meta-World duels split hairs like "The Rokkenjima of 1974" or "The Rokkenjima of the 3rd Game."

Quote:

i dont get what you mean by this line tbh. care to clarify?
Our timeloop is October 4th and 5th of 1986, right? Where Beatrice replays events differently as much as she wishes?

If that's the case, wouldn't everything before October 4th be locked in place, since the timeline only changes on those two days?

To put it another way, those two days are the 'catbox'. You dont know the fate of the cat inside the box until you open it, but without opening it you know the fate of the cat before it was put in, right? It was a live, right? Otherwise there's no experiment.

Quote:

you misunderstood what i said. i was referring to an older theory i had:
"i have a theory that the place "human beato"was in was similar to the"tea party"place. a location outside the normal worlds. afterall,you dont"suddenly"see a HUGE fence and mansion right infront of you. also her description about the fence seemingly being endless. however,how do we know that the"realm"they exited to was the same"realm"rosa was from?and if it wasnt then what happened to that realm's rosa?i need the game to explain the rules of "realm travel"before i embrace this theory."
I'll just say that given the reds used, the location Rosa found as a child, the Hidden Mansion, exists in the Human World. Otherwise Kinzo, with his poor magical ability, wouldn't be able to visit it, right?

Besides, there's usually imagery to imply places aren't part of the real world, like the butterflies or the place being covered in purple swirly mist.

Quote:
not according to my theory here:
"-butler confirmed the existence of a hidden mansion named(forgot the name lol) in red,but said"this is the manson we are talking about"in black. he then said in red that beato was in a hidden mansion but didnt name it,even though it would have been easier for him to say"she was in(insert name here)"instead of"in a hidden mansion". this leads me to believe that,while she was in a hidden mansion on rokkenjima,she wasnt in"(insert name here)"hidden mansion."
Occam's Razor. What benefit is there to being two hidden mansions?

He probably said things the way he did so as to dangle the hook infront of Battler. It might be giving him too much information to confirm Beatrice's existence in such a way.

Quote:

which would mean that he had known years prior that beatrice would suicide. that is impossible.
Or he was paranoid and worried about something happening to her. An accident, illness, murder, drowning, whatever. Her magic was sealed at this point in time, remember.

Quote:
-why would virgilia,a sorceress herself,help battler when his goal is to deny any and all magic?say two goblin clans are warring with each other,and a third party wants to kill every single goblin in existence,why would one of the clans help him when his victory means that they all lose?yes,she wants beatrice to lose,but virgilia herself loses too if battler wins.
Virgilia is a kind, sinless person, so pure of heart that the Sisters of Purgatory can't touch her. She lived an entire human lifetime as Chiyo Kumasawa, who is deeply sympathetic to the family.

Perhaps Virgilia, having lost her duel and is thus not unlike a ghost outside the Gameboard, has decided that her life is worth sacrificing to free all these innocent people from Beatrice's clutches.

Quote:
-the point of this part was apparently to say that,whenever we see magic being done on the island within those two days,it is as if a narrator is telling the story from a magic point of view and we shouldnt take it literally.however,we should search for clues within the crime scenes and try to construct what happened from there.i accept that,but i still think the magic scenes hold valuable clues.
Yes, pretty much exactly this. The magic duel between Beatrice and her teacher most certainly didn't happen. Like, no one looked out their window and saw or heard ANY of that?

But if you strip away the magic, what could it mean? Does Kumasawa, perhaps, know Beatrice's identity, and tried to convince her to stop what she was doing before it was too late?

Is Kumasawa someone the culprit loves and respects, like a mother?

Strip away the magic in these scenes and try to think of why they're being shown to us if Magic isn't real. Why are they in this book?
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Old 2016-07-22, 09:21   Link #15
Jaden
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I did expect a bit of a resurgence with an official English release. Not to spoil anything, here's a reader's guide:

It took me until episode 4 to understand the rules of the game and nature of the multi-layered world, and until 6 to REALLY understand these things, though I guess it's possible to for a savvy person to see it earlier. The first episodes led me far astray, and it was only helpful to review and speculate on them in the light of this understanding that came later.

Which is fine, since 1-4 are the "question arcs", 5 is like your first hint, 6 the second hint, 7 is the big reveal and 8 is the conclusion to the story. Although people continued to question absolutely everything even after the conclusion. Only when the manga came out and spelled out the correct answers more clearly did the debates stop.
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Old 2016-07-26, 08:32   Link #16
FFTHEWINNER
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sorry for the long delay guys. was busy with many things that didnt allow me to be in the correct mindset required to play a game like umineko.

reached after"young eva's coronation"

-2nd letter is obviously not written by beatrice/previous writer(s) of the first two episodes.writing style is different and far more amateurish. letter also contains false info,as nowhere in the epitaph or the previous letters did beatrice claim that she will give all her power and title to whomever solves the riddle.

-i think some of battler's theories are actually big tricks on the fans by ryuukishi and arent the actual explanations. i think most people assumed that,whenever beatrice resigns,that means how battler said the murder happened is the truth. i dont believe that. for example,here is my theory for the latest murder of the servants:
beatrice defined s trap as"something that the victim would trigger or be activated from outside the room".that definition leaves traps with specific timers. also,you only need one servant to lock the door on himself not all 6. so here is my theory:killer kills 5 of the 6(leaves shannon) and sets their closed rooms,then puts the last key inside the envelope in the "shannon's death"room,then installs weapon with timer in the room,then somehow convinces shannon to lock the door and talk with him through the glass of the window(he is outside the window). while they are talking,the timer expires and the weapon fires killing shannon and completing the closed rooms.that is also why beatrice couldnt say in red that other people directly killed them all,as what killed shannon was a timed weapon not a person.

-sulking beatrice is incredibly cute! i wanna hug her XD

-a weird line. beatrice said"a broken vase would never return".the meaning beatrice meant on the surface was that she did a mistake and no point crying over it. however, this line is clearly intended to reference the flashback scene,but that doesnt make any sense.how can an endless witch say that? previous beatrice clearly fixed it for a little while,and "endless witches"should have the ability to restore anything and break it and restore it again endlessly. this might be a red herring meant to confuse the fans. there is another possibility swirling in my mind,but i am honestly somewhat afraid to say it as it is a big theory but i dont have that much evidence or confidence behind it,and it is just uncomfortable to think about it lol.

-"hey teeeacher,i know i am a terrible student who your biggest regret is teaching and who just mercilessly slaughtered you and all,but help me win pleeeease."
"ok. no problem."
WTF????? >_< >_< >_<

-mindfuck. this part is simply mindfuck. how will the author continue the story?this legitimately feels damaging,as they will have to either admit to it being a lie or we will have to suffer "endless eva"for a while lol. both prospects seem really bad >_>. this is legitimately the first time in this VN that a scene made me feel completely lost and out of the loop lol.
-was the japanese reader supposed to understand what eva was talking about when she was"solving"the riddle?because i didnt have a clue.if native speakers got it then explanation would be nice lol.
-rules say murders stop when riddle is solved. murders wont stop(othewise we wont have 5 chapters ahead of us lol).why?because eva didnt solve the riddle. she ignored most of it.she may have discovered the gold,but that isnt the solution to the riddle. it is a red herring. also,young eva DOESNT EXIST. she is just a fragment of eva's imagination.that also means that coronation scenery never happened and is one big red herring. also,like i said,nowhere in the epitaph or the previous letters did beatrice claim that she will give all her power and title to whomever solves the riddle.
however,magical scenes so far have been murder scenes with a human equivalent. this scene has no human equivalent.if eva was imagining it then how would ronove and the rest appear when eva doesnt know them?and if beatrice fabricated the whole scene then that would mean that she can read minds,as how else would she know that current eva has an alter ego that looks like her younger self?this whole scene is confusing and weird.

-also,the simple fact that the murders are happening means that the actual"key" is already found by somebody. otherwise how would the 2nd part of the epitaph begin when the 1st part(finding the key)wasnt finished?

-also,who said that the talker in the 1st section of the epitaph(the one who says"my belved hometown") is kinzo?it is very possible that the talker in that part is actually beatrice.

-in the"put the witch to sleep"part of the epitaph,"sleep"is commonly used as a metaphor for"death". however,i think another,less obvious,meaning is that"putting the witch to sleep"could mean beatrice becoming a true human once again instead of a witch,so the"witch beatrice"was put to sleep by becoming"human beatrice".

on a side note,when eva was maniacally gloating in the gold room and showing how much of a terrible preson she is,i kept hoping for her to be stabbed or for the stakes to appear lol. quite unfortunate that my wish wasnt granted >_>.


"I did expect a bit of a resurgence with an official English release. Not to spoil anything, here's a reader's guide:

It took me until episode 4 to understand the rules of the game and nature of the multi-layered world, and until 6 to REALLY understand these things, though I guess it's possible to for a savvy person to see it earlier. The first episodes led me far astray, and it was only helpful to review and speculate on them in the light of this understanding that came later.

Which is fine, since 1-4 are the "question arcs", 5 is like your first hint, 6 the second hint, 7 is the big reveal and 8 is the conclusion to the story. Although people continued to question absolutely everything even after the conclusion. Only when the manga came out and spelled out the correct answers more clearly did the debates stop."

actually,me deciding to play it has nothing to do with the steam release. i didnt even know there was a steam release until i was in episode 3 lol. it is just a coincidence

what you are saying might be the case,but a big part of umineko's enjoyment for me is to analyze,theorize,and discuss it. even if many of my theories are wrong,and they probably are,it is still enjoyable to think and reach them

"Well, actually they did...as an Imagine spot. He was standing there imagine what it would be like to be them in that moment, in order to fuel his thought process of protecting Kanon's innocence. The fact that it shows up in Battler's personal narration, while he's in the room, means it's something he's aware of as a thought in his head."

ok. i just replayed that scene. right before the ghosts appear battler wonders what they would have thought. that is correct. however,when you imagine someone talking,what he says is stuff you know. jessica said that kanon died trying to protect her, how would piece battler know that?furthermore"that witch erased your corpse for fun"is a line piece battler would never in his wildest dreams think of.no human would ever think that. they would simply think that"the killer might have hid the corpse"not"the witch erased the corpse".
as for meta battler,he asked weather kanon was killed or not,which means that he wasnt sure that kanon was dead,so he certainly wouldnt imagine his soul.
so,while your theory is possible,the fact that the"witch erased the corpse"claim was made makes the possibility that this isnt simply the imaginations of piece battler high.
now,if,like we believe,the witch isnt the actual killer,does that exchange still work?imo,yes it does. jessica never said beatrice was the killer. she simply said kanon died trying to protect her and the witch erased the corpse. like i said before,for battler to win he should prove that the killer isnt beatrice.even if she is the one who erased the body,as long as she isnt the actual killer no problem.
(i know that the idea that beatrice did actually erase the body is weird and not that appealing,but i believe in the sherlock holems saying"eleminate the impossible and what you are left with,no matter how strange, is the truth". for the reasons i detailed,i find it impossible that battler imagined it,which means i am left with it being a real scene).

"She might not be able to reach them by force, but she can invite them to her paradise.

Or perhaps the contradiction is an intentional flaw in the Magical Narrative."

to invite someone you need to be able to reach them first. if you cant reach them you cant invite them.
ofcourse,we know that the narrator isnt that reliable(honestly,i am starting to think the narrator is ronove lol. the narration and comments sounds so much like him),so it might be a mistake on his part.

"The way its intended to be read is that the 4 treasures are available to however gets to the Golden Land. She has four prizes, you can take all four or just one, and multiple people means they can all pick their own prize."

if someone said"whomever pays me x$ shall be given 4 houses",and someone gave him x$,he would get the 4 houses. no way that anyone would accept"oh,you should only pick one house because other people already paid me the same amount".
furthermore,the condition to recieve the rewards is to solve the epitaph. none of the survivors so far solved the epitaph,so how would they recieve the rewards?no way.

"Don't worry about that face. As a Witch, Virgilia is still able to play pranks, or be deceptive; and Beatrice has already shown the ability to impersonate people with her magic.

I will say, without spoilers, that face is used in a positive/comedic light sometimes."

honestly,i am looking forward to when it is used lol XD

"No one's saying they 100% don't matter. If they're not real, they still have symbolic truth. Beatrice using magic to murder Rosa still implies that someone murdered her. Kanon having a magical duel to protect Jessica still implies he returns her feelings.

Even if the scenes are lies, they're meant to contain clues. Think about why these scenes are crafted in this exact manner, and how they can help Battler even if he can't believe his eyes."

still,the"clues"you mentioned are pretty f***ing obvious even without magical scenes. of course someone murdered rosa,and kanon's scenes with shannon clearly show that he wants to be in love with jessica. this is an incredibly intellectual visual novel,so i highly doubt such scenes would be crafted just to tell us that the earth is round lol. there are clues that are far far harder to find hidden inside them.

"Beatrice using magic to restore Maria's marshmallow, or her rose, or giving her the letter, for example. Her mere existence and magic tricks are a thing to be challenged, because his goal is to deny the existence of Beatrice the Witch.

Her piece on the gameboard doesn't mean anything. It could refer to a human Beatrice, someone impersonating Beatrice, or a complete fabrication every witness is lying about seeing for some sort of conspiracy.

Whichever is true, that would be her 'existence'."

when did she"challenge him"about any of that? those were scenes that we saw,but beatrice never asked battler to explain any of that. the only thing she challenged him on iirc were the locked rooms.

again,i dont get how you could say that. i am truly confused. it was confirmed IN RED that "island beatrice"and"meta beatrice" are either the exact same(beatrice descending)or the same thing as meta and piece battler. beatrice said she herself did it.she said "I". she said "the letter "I" gave to maria" in red.how can you explain that?if she said"the letter that was given to maria"then you would have a point,but she clearly said "I".

"The 9th Twilight is generally treated as any murders after the 8th but before Midnight, October 6th, 1986. The 10th Twilight is anything after at or after that moment.

Basically, no events on the Gameboard can occur after the 10th Twilight. It's the point where the clock is stopped."

possible,but there is no evidence so far to support that. the 9th twilight wasnt completed by 12. the"none shall be left alive"part was still not done. the 9th twilight WAS completed when the seagulls cried the next day,as"no one was left alive".so,based on this,i personally believe the latter as the start of the 10th twilight,not the former.

"Well, assume for the sake of argument that it IS the case. How would you imagine a human culprit using their power, money, and charisma to make all these people cooperate?

And furthermore, how many of those who'd have the courage to speak out would have the knowledge of what's really going on?

And who's to say that's not why Beatrice murders some of them first?"

like i said,it is possible.it is also possible that the large number is due to more than one killer existing.we will see what happens.

"Fair enough. I won't really argue the point, since semantics isn't really the point of this battle against the witch, though. For all intents and purposes there's only one Rokkenjima, unless the Meta-World duels split hairs like "The Rokkenjima of 1974" or "The Rokkenjima of the 3rd Game."
Our timeloop is October 4th and 5th of 1986, right? Where Beatrice replays events differently as much as she wishes?

If that's the case, wouldn't everything before October 4th be locked in place, since the timeline only changes on those two days?

To put it another way, those two days are the 'catbox'. You dont know the fate of the cat inside the box until you open it, but without opening it you know the fate of the cat before it was put in, right? It was a live, right? Otherwise there's no experiment."

i believe each game happens in a different timeline/universe.thus,each game has its own rokkenjima. the simple fact that events are quite different in each game confirms that,as it is obvious that the murderer/s in one episode are not the murderer/s in the other episodes.those murders were planned in advance,which means that,unless every single person of the 18 came to the island with the intention to kill and a plan,which is highly unlikely to say the least,those who intended and planned to murder the others in one episode had no intention of murdering the others in another episode. this means that the difference between the worlds isnt only in those two days the game takes place in.

furthermore,compare someone(example:rosa)to beatrice.we know that there are many "rosa"s,one for each timeline/game played. however,there is only one beatrice,as she isnt restricted by the timelines. she could travel through them and there is only one copy of her(otherwise we would have an endless number of endless witches who can all interact with each other. it wont work that way. clearly the other copies of beatrice in the other dimensions were either"erased"or"merged"onto this beatrice.)this means that there is a difference between the timelines. in one of them beatrice became the endless witch. in the others,she got erased or merged,so the differences in the timelines go back further than those two days.

to put it anotherway,yes,the cat is always living. but in one box it was a black cat. in the other a brown cat,in the third a cat of a different breed,and so on


"I'll just say that given the reds used, the location Rosa found as a child, the Hidden Mansion, exists in the Human World. Otherwise Kinzo, with his poor magical ability, wouldn't be able to visit it, right?

Besides, there's usually imagery to imply places aren't part of the real world, like the butterflies or the place being covered in purple swirly mist."

fair point with kinzo(though he is so stubborn he can do anything lol XD)

and yeah,in this game such imagery has been used in those cases,though it doesnt necessairly mean that they are the"only"imagery that can be used. devil's proof

"Occam's Razor. What benefit is there to being two hidden mansions?

He probably said things the way he did so as to dangle the hook infront of Battler. It might be giving him too much information to confirm Beatrice's existence in such a way."

that question can be asked of 99% of the events in game lol. there is a ton of stuff we dont know. one possible explanation,for example,is that he might want a different place for when he wants to mediate alone or do dark magic.another is that he had another mistress in addition to beatrice. there are a ton of possible explanations.

ofcourse,it is also possible that this is a red herring,but why?and what is the benefit?ronove did confirm the existence of beato on rokkenjima,and battler would naturally assume that she was in that palace. in-story,this is useless as a red herring.

"Or he was paranoid and worried about something happening to her. An accident, illness, murder, drowning, whatever. Her magic was sealed at this point in time, remember."

who said that her magic was sealed?
there is no proof what so ever that old beatrice's magic was sealed. only human beatrice was said to have her magic sealed,and the transition from old beatrice to human beatrice is the one that needed the child body. there is no reason for old beatrice pre-dying/suiciding to be anything less than a full witch.

"Virgilia is a kind, sinless person, so pure of heart that the Sisters of Purgatory can't touch her. She lived an entire human lifetime as Chiyo Kumasawa, who is deeply sympathetic to the family.

Perhaps Virgilia, having lost her duel and is thus not unlike a ghost outside the Gameboard, has decided that her life is worth sacrificing to free all these innocent people from Beatrice's clutches."

except that she didnt live as kumasawa. by her own admission,she was sleeping inside her. kumasawa is a different person.
furthermore,if she only told battler that beatrice is showing the events from her own interpretation i would have been more inclined to accept that as her helping him because she wants beatrice ti lose,but she pretty much said that "magic"doesnt exist and is simply scientific stuff that people dont get. first of all,in the flashback,we saw her fix the clearly broken vase for a time then the vase got broken again. that happened IRL.that is magic.that is not science. that is also beatrice's dream,which she didnt plan on having and battler didnt see,which means there is no logical reason for it to be fake what so ever.
even if we,for the sake of the argument,persume that she is saying the truth,the fact remains that no witch would ever admit that even if you tore their heart out. best comparison imo is with pro wrestling before the 80s. even though it was predetermined then too,no wrestler would ever say that it is anything less that 100% real no matter what you do or offer him. same here.
she is planning something big and she is neither sinless nor pure.

"Yes, pretty much exactly this. The magic duel between Beatrice and her teacher most certainly didn't happen. Like, no one looked out their window and saw or heard ANY of that?

But if you strip away the magic, what could it mean? Does Kumasawa, perhaps, know Beatrice's identity, and tried to convince her to stop what she was doing before it was too late?

Is Kumasawa someone the culprit loves and respects, like a mother?

Strip away the magic in these scenes and try to think of why they're being shown to us if Magic isn't real. Why are they in this book? "

well,technically you could say that a barrier was constructed that prevented anyone outside from seeing or hearing anything. it is a common theme in supernatural battle animes. however,the game's premise pretty much tells us that isnt the case,so yeah.

thing is,as we later see,virgilia does exist. however,there is no proof that she was actually inside kumasawa,though it i possible. i personally believe that essential pieces of the puzzle,which we need to identify the truth from the lies in these scenes,are still missing.

sp:funnily enough,i read today a quote that perfectly illustrates my "old pro wrestling"comparison,so thought i'd include it:
"I was involved in wrestling since 1958, and could not bring myself to expose it. No amount of money could have made me do it, either. Between that and torture, I would have chosen torture. It’s like what I told Jim Barnett many years ago in Australia, “You’re paying for my body, not my soul. My soul was in wrestling, and I couldn’t betray my soul."(Said by Gary Hart,one of the biggest managers of the 70s and 80s)

Last edited by FFTHEWINNER; 2016-07-26 at 09:43.
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Old 2016-07-27, 06:46   Link #17
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
-2nd letter is obviously not written by beatrice/previous writer(s) of the first two episodes.writing style is different and far more amateurish. letter also contains false info,as nowhere in the epitaph or the previous letters did beatrice claim that she will give all her power and title to whomever solves the riddle.
Well, that's kind of implicit in the original deal. Beatrice is the functioning Head once the roulette starts because she claims everything of Kinzo's. But then if she's defeated, everything she owns goes to the winner.

It's the risk she makes by betting on this game.

Quote:
beatrice defined s trap as"something that the victim would trigger or be activated from outside the room".that definition leaves traps with specific timers. also,you only need one servant to lock the door on himself not all 6. so here is my theory:killer kills 5 of the 6(leaves shannon) and sets their closed rooms,then puts the last key inside the envelope in the "shannon's death"room,then installs weapon with timer in the room,then somehow convinces shannon to lock the door and talk with him through the glass of the window(he is outside the window). while they are talking,the timer expires and the weapon fires killing shannon and completing the closed rooms.that is also why beatrice couldnt say in red that other people directly killed them all,as what killed shannon was a timed weapon not a person.
The six people were not killed by traps. The type of trap doesn't matter. If there was any wiggle room like you suggested, the red truth would have to be "The six people were not killed by those kinds of traps."

Quote:
-a weird line. beatrice said"a broken vase would never return".the meaning beatrice meant on the surface was that she did a mistake and no point crying over it. however, this line is clearly intended to reference the flashback scene,but that doesnt make any sense.how can an endless witch say that? previous beatrice clearly fixed it for a little while,and "endless witches"should have the ability to restore anything and break it and restore it again endlessly. this might be a red herring meant to confuse the fans. there is another possibility swirling in my mind,but i am honestly somewhat afraid to say it as it is a big theory but i dont have that much evidence or confidence behind it,and it is just uncomfortable to think about it lol.
Given the context of the scene, it seems the implication is that her magic can't fix that Battler's upset.

Quote:

-"hey teeeacher,i know i am a terrible student who your biggest regret is teaching and who just mercilessly slaughtered you and all,but help me win pleeeease."
"ok. no problem."
WTF????? >_< >_< >_<
Virgil was the virtuous pagan who lead a sinner through Hell so he could find Purgatory, after all...

Quote:
-mindfuck. this part is simply mindfuck. how will the author continue the story?this legitimately feels damaging,as they will have to either admit to it being a lie or we will have to suffer "endless eva"for a while lol. both prospects seem really bad >_>. this is legitimately the first time in this VN that a scene made me feel completely lost and out of the loop lol.
-was the japanese reader supposed to understand what eva was talking about when she was"solving"the riddle?because i didnt have a clue.if native speakers got it then explanation would be nice lol.
As a reader, you cannot solve the Epitaph quite yet based on this scene. It's a case of the character knowing something we haven't solved yet.

Quote:
-rules say murders stop when riddle is solved. murders wont stop(othewise we wont have 5 chapters ahead of us lol).why?because eva didnt solve the riddle. she ignored most of it.she may have discovered the gold,but that isnt the solution to the riddle. it is a red herring. also,young eva DOESNT EXIST. she is just a fragment of eva's imagination.that also means that coronation scenery never happened and is one big red herring. also,like i said,nowhere in the epitaph or the previous letters did beatrice claim that she will give all her power and title to whomever solves the riddle.
however,magical scenes so far have been murder scenes with a human equivalent. this scene has no human equivalent.if eva was imagining it then how would ronove and the rest appear when eva doesnt know them?and if beatrice fabricated the whole scene then that would mean that she can read minds,as how else would she know that current eva has an alter ego that looks like her younger self?this whole scene is confusing and weird.
Beatrice said she'd stop the murders if she was defeated; that doesn't mean someone else can't continue them.

Just because a scene is an imaginary one doesn't mean the character in the scene is imagining it, it could just be Beatrice demonstrating an illusion.

Quote:
ok. i just replayed that scene. right before the ghosts appear battler wonders what they would have thought. that is correct. however,when you imagine someone talking,what he says is stuff you know. jessica said that kanon died trying to protect her, how would piece battler know that?furthermore"that witch erased your corpse for fun"is a line piece battler would never in his wildest dreams think of.no human would ever think that. they would simply think that"the killer might have hid the corpse"not"the witch erased the corpse".
Deductive reasoning plus having faith in Kanon. If Kanon is a victim and Jessica is dead, he probably died protecting her, otherwise he'd never allow it. If Kanon's body isn't here and he's innocent, it means the culprit 'erased' it by making it disappear.

Quote:
"She might not be able to reach them by force, but she can invite them to her paradise.

Or perhaps the contradiction is an intentional flaw in the Magical Narrative."

to invite someone you need to be able to reach them first. if you cant reach them you cant invite them.
ofcourse,we know that the narrator isnt that reliable(honestly,i am starting to think the narrator is ronove lol. the narration and comments sounds so much like him),so it might be a mistake on his part.
I can't reach you, but I can invite you. Here, come to my house.

Quote:
if someone said"whomever pays me x$ shall be given 4 houses",and someone gave him x$,he would get the 4 houses. no way that anyone would accept"oh,you should only pick one house because other people already paid me the same amount".
furthermore,the condition to recieve the rewards is to solve the epitaph. none of the survivors so far solved the epitaph,so how would they recieve the rewards?no way.
Someone offers you four houses. You take just one. The guy shrugs. "Well, the other people get four houses too, you don't need to share." You respond, "The heck do I need with four houses?"

Also, In the ritual sacrifice interpretation, they did reach it by surviving the 9th Twilight.

Quote:
still,the"clues"you mentioned are pretty f***ing obvious even without magical scenes. of course someone murdered rosa,and kanon's scenes with shannon clearly show that he wants to be in love with jessica. this is an incredibly intellectual visual novel,so i highly doubt such scenes would be crafted just to tell us that the earth is round lol. there are clues that are far far harder to find hidden inside them.
well, yes, but I'm not gonna tell you as examples.

Quote:

when did she"challenge him"about any of that? those were scenes that we saw,but beatrice never asked battler to explain any of that. the only thing she challenged him on iirc were the locked rooms.

again,i dont get how you could say that. i am truly confused. it was confirmed IN RED that "island beatrice"and"meta beatrice" are either the exact same(beatrice descending)or the same thing as meta and piece battler. beatrice said she herself did it.she said "I". she said "the letter "I" gave to maria" in red.how can you explain that?if she said"the letter that was given to maria"then you would have a point,but she clearly said "I".
Would it help if I told you that she WILL challenge him on stuff like the marshmallow later?

The rules of the game is that the Red Truth can't be used to explicitly confirm or deny Witches. Some force is impersonating Beatrice, so Beatrice can use the term "I" to refer to them because she's trying to convince Battler she exists. if "I" is nothing but Nanjo running around in a stupid dress, so be it. That's "Beatrice."

Quote:
possible,but there is no evidence so far to support that. the 9th twilight wasnt completed by 12. the"none shall be left alive"part was still not done. the 9th twilight WAS completed when the seagulls cried the next day,as"no one was left alive".so,based on this,i personally believe the latter as the start of the 10th twilight,not the former.
The 10th Twilight is what guarantees the "None Will Be Left Alive" part in the Episode Ending Scrolls.

Also, the bit about things being unreliable after 12 of the second day is a Creator's statement released after episode 2, since he received complaints that it was too hard. Lol, step it up, Japan.

Quote:
i believe each game happens in a different timeline/universe.thus,each game has its own rokkenjima. the simple fact that events are quite different in each game confirms that,as it is obvious that the murderer/s in one episode are not the murderer/s in the other episodes.those murders were planned in advance,which means that,unless every single person of the 18 came to the island with the intention to kill and a plan,which is highly unlikely to say the least,those who intended and planned to murder the others in one episode had no intention of murdering the others in another episode. this means that the difference between the worlds isnt only in those two days the game takes place in.

furthermore,compare someone(example:rosa)to beatrice.we know that there are many "rosa"s,one for each timeline/game played. however,there is only one beatrice,as she isnt restricted by the timelines. she could travel through them and there is only one copy of her(otherwise we would have an endless number of endless witches who can all interact with each other. it wont work that way. clearly the other copies of beatrice in the other dimensions were either"erased"or"merged"onto this beatrice.)this means that there is a difference between the timelines. in one of them beatrice became the endless witch. in the others,she got erased or merged,so the differences in the timelines go back further than those two days.
Or Perhaps Beatrice has the same relationship with "Herself" as Battler and his Piece-self.

Quote:
who said that her magic was sealed?
there is no proof what so ever that old beatrice's magic was sealed. only human beatrice was said to have her magic sealed,and the transition from old beatrice to human beatrice is the one that needed the child body. there is no reason for old beatrice pre-dying/suiciding to be anything less than a full witch.
Dude, the mirror she asked Shannon to break. That's been around since before Kinzo gained ownership of the island. By being summoned to the island, she was trapped because she couldn't do magic once Kinzo bound her with his own spell on top. This was explained, iirc.

Quote:
except that she didnt live as kumasawa. by her own admission,she was sleeping inside her. kumasawa is a different person.
The implication was clearly reincarnation, imo. That sort of prose is used a lot in the East. "<Past self> is sleeping inside you. Wake up and remember them."

Quote:
furthermore,if she only told battler that beatrice is showing the events from her own interpretation i would have been more inclined to accept that as her helping him because she wants beatrice ti lose,but she pretty much said that "magic"doesnt exist and is simply scientific stuff that people dont get. first of all,in the flashback,we saw her fix the clearly broken vase for a time then the vase got broken again. that happened IRL.that is magic.that is not science. that is also beatrice's dream,which she didnt plan on having and battler didnt see,which means there is no logical reason for it to be fake what so ever.
even if we,for the sake of the argument,persume that she is saying the truth,the fact remains that no witch would ever admit that even if you tore their heart out. best comparison imo is with pro wrestling before the 80s. even though it was predetermined then too,no wrestler would ever say that it is anything less that 100% real no matter what you do or offer him. same here.
she is planning something big and she is neither sinless nor pure.
It was still shown to US, the Reader, and thus can still be a fantasy scene. We are also playing this game with Ryukishi.

As for the vase, well, look at it from a non-magical context. The vase was 'fine, but broken by a cat', because 'the fate that it broke couldn't be changed'.

...Isn't that just changing the process of why it was broken? Did they actually do that, or did they just say they did?

Quote:
But if you strip away the magic, what could it mean? Does Kumasawa, perhaps, know Beatrice's identity, and tried to convince her to stop what she was doing before it was too late?

Is Kumasawa someone the culprit loves and respects, like a mother?
Perhaps. Not confirming or denying, but back in the day I remember a lot of people speculating that Kumasawa was somehow the original Beatrice, disguised so Kinzo didn't recognize her, lol.

Quote:

thing is,as we later see,virgilia does exist. however,there is no proof that she was actually inside kumasawa,though it i possible. i personally believe that essential pieces of the puzzle,which we need to identify the truth from the lies in these scenes,are still missing.
How does Virgilia 'exist'? Piece-Battler didn't see her, and appearing in the Meta-World doesn't exactly mean much considering the point of the game.
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Old 2016-07-28, 12:43   Link #18
FFTHEWINNER
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first,more thoughts:

-the way shannon died is different than the magical explanation. she was stabbed/shot in the back,but in the magical scene genji"shut her down"from the area between her neck and shoulders not from her back. another interesting inconstancy.

-as for why all the murderers seem to follow the epitaph,the answer is that all of them were indeed trying to complete the ritual and revive the witch,possibly with direct instructions from her.

let us think about it. when the sea gulls cry there are NO survivors. what happened to the killer/s in every single episode?stuff like"they killed each other off"can work if it was only one episode,but not when there are 7 episodes that end the exact same way.

furthermore,let us say the killer/s plan included them being the only ones surviving. i would love to know how anyone with enough brains to make such complicated murders would believe for a second that,when the police comes,he wouldnt be suspect number one,especially considering the dire financial states of the whole family except kinzo.the police ofcourse will do a very thorough investigation,with plenty of suspicious things to uncover evidence from,and it will be over the news headlines for weeks,completely destroying the reputation of the survivors even if he was found not guilty.in summary,no way in hell to not get severely burned from this.

now,maria clearly said that beatrice has been appearing for her every year for a while. she also appeared to shannon and manipulated her into breaking the mirror. it is a simple conclusion that she appeared to the killer/s(who are different in each timeline),showed them some magic(possibly through hypnosis)to convince them of her power,and convinced them to do the epitaph murders for the 4 rewards the epitaph talks about.then after they are finished and she is revived she kills them.
this explanation might be considered "naive thinking"by some people,but it perfectly explains many things that wouldnt make a lick of sense with"human thinking".

"Well, that's kind of implicit in the original deal. Beatrice is the functioning Head once the roulette starts because she claims everything of Kinzo's. But then if she's defeated, everything she owns goes to the winner.

It's the risk she makes by betting on this game.

Beatrice said she'd stop the murders if she was defeated; that doesn't mean someone else can't continue them."

no it isnt. here is the reward text in the epitaph:
"The witch will praise the wise, and should bestow four treasures.
One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land.
One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead.
One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love.
One shall be, to put the witch to sleep for all time."

it says the witch will be put to sleep. it doesnt imply at all that her power will be transferred in anyway. nor did the previous"beatrice messages"in the past episodes imply that in anyway.

furthermore,beatrice said in red"I will keep my promise If you solve the riddle of the epitaph, you should be able to reach the Golden Land. When you have, the ceremony will be over. No more people will die.". the last part clearly means that everything will be over. no one will die and no more"new episodes"will happen. how will this be possible if eva already solved it in episode 3?

also,eva ignored the vast majority of the epitaph. she didnt solve the"twilights"part at all. she didnt get the other 3 rewards.

so i dont get how her solving the epitaph for real makes any sense. only way out i can see is for the gold to be a red herring that makes them stop thinking and thus they will all die because the true solution wasnt found.

"Just because a scene is an imaginary one doesn't mean the character in the scene is imagining it, it could just be Beatrice demonstrating an illusion."

i thought of that,but like i said"if beatrice fabricated the whole scene then that would mean that she can read minds,as how else would she know that current eva has an alter ego that looks like her younger self?"

"'The six people were not killed by traps. The type of trap doesn't matter. If there was any wiggle room like you suggested, the red truth would have to be "The six people were not killed by those kinds of traps."

what is a "trap"?the simple fact that battler asked her to define the meaning of "trap"is a clue,as if the meaning wasnt defined i indeed wouldnt have any wiggle room. however,the simple fact that he asked is a hint. in response to that question,beatrice said her definition of"trap"is"something that the victim would trigger or be activated from outside the room". according to this definition"weapons with timers"arent"traps",as they are neither triggered by the victim nor activated from outside the room,so the red doesnt apply to them.

let me give you an example. say your friend said"this zoo doesnt have monkeys in it". you tell him you saw gurellas in there last week,and he says"yeah. they do have those. i mean monkeys like chimpanzee and what not. i dont really put gurellas in the same category". according to his definition of"monkey",he is saying the truth.even though your definition of"monkeys"might include gurellas,the speaker's definition is what matters here.

the red truth arent to be taken on surface value afterall,like this"I"debate we have been having

"Given the context of the scene, it seems the implication is that her magic can't fix that Battler's upset."

i clearly stated that"the meaning beatrice meant on the surface was that she did a mistake(telling battler that no more than 18 exist on this rokkenjima) and no point crying over it.". that doesnt change the fact that this is a clear reference to the flashback.

i suppose that this is a good place to debut the"uncomfortable theory"that i alluded to last time lol.

*Takes Deep Breath*

this will either be a home run or cause me to run home lol. anyway,here we go:

what if Beatrice herself is,to use a Mass Effect term,Indoctrinated?

i mean,if you want to go a 100% pure "anti-fantasy,no magic can happen at all in normal umineko world" approach(which i dont believe in,but cant deny it as a possibility either)then beatrice's flashback scene pretty much obliterates that possibility,as in it we see clear use of magic to fix what was clearly broken for a while in a scene that,like i said,was from beatrice's memories. she didnt intend to remember it,and battler didnt see it. the only possible way for you to save that belief is for beatrice's own memories to be fake.
furthermore,the "vase cant be restored" line. again,how can beatrice the endless say that?it completely goes against all the principles of her being "her". of her being an endless witch.

well,what if she is indoctrinated?what if her memories of her childhood are all lies?what if that line was something her subconscious mind,who is trying to resist the indoctrination,made her say?

who indoctrinated her?virgilia. what was she before that?possibly a normal human,possibly a dead soul like meta-battler. those stakes/servants and her powers?loans from virgilia to complete the decoration and fully make her believe the lies.

of course,this theory raises a ton of questions i dont have answers to,is contradictory to a lot of my previous theories,and makes a lot of scenes not make sense,which is why i said it is uncomfortable to think about it lol. still,i laid it out,and after i finish the game i will either facewall when i remember it or will smile proudly at how farsighted i was. most likely the former lol.
*is quite interested in what his comrades ITT think of this theory*

"Virgil was the virtuous pagan who lead a sinner through Hell so he could find Purgatory, after all..."

as i remember it,dante was chosen to tour hell,purgatory,and heaven. he certainly wasnt a sinner in hell who was saved. virgil was just his"tour guide"to hell and pergatory,while beatrice was his tour guide to heaven(an interesting flip from the events here lol).

"As a reader, you cannot solve the Epitaph quite yet based on this scene. It's a case of the character knowing something we haven't solved yet."

actually,the guys in the other board hammered this idea in quite strongly lol. to quote:
"
"Wasn't there a language barrier for Japanese readers as well since knowledge of Chinese beyond shared kanji was required?"


Normally, I'm not inclined to post stuff that might be considered spoilers in this topic, but the utter futility of the Epitaph puzzle for readers to solve really needs to be clearly stated so FF doesn't waste his time: It requires written knowledge of Japanese, Chinese, and English, geographic information that despite hints in the story aren't likely to be found in any actual atlas (this one being somewhat excusable), as well as a successful wild guess as to what city the "hometown" refers to, which is never explicitly stated until the solution of the Epitaph is presented, and which, previous to that, had only a single, extremely vague hint (although it would've been more or less common knowledge to the characters).
It was a pretty disappointing puzzle, in all truth"

"Yeah, the epitaph is quite hard to solve, especially for non native readers. I do remember that some japanese solved it.

The hints are pretty vague and the solution its quite derpy in the end. Its the one thing I wouldn´t bother with."

so yeah,guess i got no chance in hell of solving it then lol. that is honestly quite a bummer,as i was hoping that all the needed info was in the game and i would be able to know the answer through analyzing and connecting it to the info we learn in-story. while i see why ryuukishi did it(since it is an episodic release game,he didnt want anyone to fully get the answer before he revealed it to keep interest high),i cant help but feel such a move is very unfair to the fans who undoubtedly spent tons of time trying to solve it,including me .

also,since we are talking about this,i will make a confession. like i said,i knew almost nothing about umineko when i started. however,three years ago i intended to make a "Top 10 Riddles in games"list. someone suggested umineko,wrote the epitaph,and simply said that the answer is
Spoiler for answer:
i asked him to explain and he said:
"by quadrillion, I mean the word quadrillion, not the number quadrillion.

Basically, to solve the riddle you need:
A. Extensive Knowledge of Asian Geography
B. Japanese Settlements and migrations in the World War II/Showa Era
C. Fluency in the English language(This would be a hindrance for the intended native Japanese audience)
D. Fluency in Japanese, especially kanji.
E. Chinese Pinyin conventions and basic characters.
F. Of course, critical reasoning skills and the ability to connect between these fields.

It's stupidly difficult riddle."

that was the extent of the conversation,so i technically"know"the answer,except that i dont understand it in anyway lol. that was part of why i was hoping that the game would allow me to"get"the answer and how it relates to the huge problem at hand.


"Deductive reasoning plus having faith in Kanon. If Kanon is a victim and Jessica is dead, he probably died protecting her, otherwise he'd never allow it. If Kanon's body isn't here and he's innocent, it means the culprit 'erased' it by making it disappear."

first one is understandable. however,the term anyone wpuld think of is"hidden". no one will think"erased". "erased"means that the body isnt in this world anymore,just like how erased words arent in this world anymore,while "hidden"words are. same for saying that"the witch"did it instead of"the culprit"did it.
still,this IS a mindfuck story,so i cant deny that ryuukishi might have written it that way with the direct intention of making the fans have the exact same debate about it that we are having lol,so i will leave it be for now

"I can't reach you, but I can invite you. Here, come to my house."

actually you CAN and ARE reaching me,through the internet. just like if you have the phone number of somebody you can reach them through it.
however,this is obviously a matter of how you define the word"reach",just like the"trap"matter. considering that,unlike the clear definition of"trap",the game didnt define"reach",an alternate definition of the word"reach"makes your suggestion correct,so i will leave this point alone for now too.

Someone offers you four houses. You take just one. The guy shrugs. "Well, the other people get four houses too, you don't need to share." You respond, "The heck do I need with four houses?"

Also, In the ritual sacrifice interpretation, they did reach it by surviving the 9th Twilight."

well,if you paid him x$ already then why would you not take all that you are entitled to?you can sell what you dont need.

in the game,why would anyone choose less than the full 4 rewards? say george solved it. he would choose the gold for its monetary value. he would choose to revive the dead because he loves his family,he would choose to revive the lost love because he loves shannon,and he would choose to put the witch to sleep as revenge for the pain and suffering she made them all go through. him choosing only one reward and ignoring all the others when he could simply get them too wouldnt make any sense.
also,remember that one of the rewards is"ALL the gold of the golden land". that means no gold will be left after the 1st guy gets his rewards,which means the epitaph's rewards will be incorrect for the others. we know that the rewards cant ve incorrect because the epitaph os the center of the story and is definitely true,which means that the only way out of this problems is for there to not be any"others". only one can get the rewards. the one who solves the epitaph.

and if simply surviving means you reach the golden land and get the rewards then there is no point in trying to solve the riddle. you just need to hope that you arent chosen because who reaches it would be based on luck.

"well, yes, but I'm not gonna tell you as examples."

i know lol. i was just mentioning it

"Would it help if I told you that she WILL challenge him on stuff like the marshmallow later?

The rules of the game is that the Red Truth can't be used to explicitly confirm or deny Witches. Some force is impersonating Beatrice, so Beatrice can use the term "I" to refer to them because she's trying to convince Battler she exists. if "I" is nothing but Nanjo running around in a stupid dress, so be it. That's "Beatrice.""

well,when she challenges him i will revise my theory based on the events then,so let us leave this point until i reach said challenges

"The 10th Twilight is what guarantees the "None Will Be Left Alive" part in the Episode Ending Scrolls.

Also, the bit about things being unreliable after 12 of the second day is a Creator's statement released after episode 2, since he received complaints that it was too hard. Lol, step it up, Japan."

...how?the 10th twilight is simply when the journey ends and you reach the village of gold. ofcourse no one will be left alive at that point,but that is simply a result of the 10th happening after the 9th,as"no one left alive"is part of the 9th twilight.

as for the creator's statement,i said from the beginning that i agree with you on that. the difference is that i believe that they are unreliable because the first part of the 9th twilight(the witch being revived)happened and thus,with the witch in full power,she can do anything she wants to anyone. the"human explanation"is thrown out the window after the witch is revived. so we agree on the result but simply disagree on the why

"Or Perhaps Beatrice has the same relationship with "Herself" as Battler and his Piece-self."

even if that was the case,that still means that the beatrice in one timeline became an endless witch while the beatrices in the other timelines didnt. no matter how it is spun,it is undeniable that a difference in the timelines happened when beatrice became the endless witch(AKA before the two day period the games take place in).

"Dude, the mirror she asked Shannon to break. That's been around since before Kinzo gained ownership of the island. By being summoned to the island, she was trapped because she couldn't do magic once Kinzo bound her with his own spell on top. This was explained, iirc."

i am pretty confident it was also said that the mirror had lost its power for a while until kinzo,at some unspecified point,restrengthened it. that unspecified point could be after the suicide.

there are more evidence though. what was the purpose od that mirror?to prevent EVIL spirits from COMING to the island and force the ones already there to leave. first of all,we have no evidence that"old beatrice"was an evil spirit(and according to my theory she wasnt),so the mirror wouldnt affect her if she was a good spirit then. second of all,if old beatrice was a bad spirit then how was she even able to be summoned to the island if the mirror was still working?the mirror should have been like a protective barrier that stops her from entering but forces her to exit if she entered,nor force her to stay. it wouldnt make sense for a protective mirror to force evil spirits to stay.
to summerize,order of events:
1-mirror was weak and not needed,pld beatrice summoned
2-old beato dies/suicides,human beato is made
3-kinzo strengthens the mirror,but not before he modifies the mirror's nature so that it keeps the spirits inside instead of throwing them out. this is done as a protective measure in case "human beatrice"ever regains her power and remembers why she died/suicided.
4:Human Beato dies.

"The implication was clearly reincarnation, imo. That sort of prose is used a lot in the East. "<Past self> is sleeping inside you. Wake up and remember them."

in eastern religions,reincarnation is based on how you did in the past life. if old beato was truly that great then she would have reached nirvana,not gotten reincarnated. also,where you get reincarnated is random,so what are the odds she will get reincarnated there of all places?
i believe"she chose to hide/sleep inside kumasawa's body so that she is ready in case beatrice ever gets revived"is a more logical answer.perfect example is the main character in Seikrei.

"How does Virgilia 'exist'? Piece-Battler didn't see her, and appearing in the Meta-World doesn't exactly mean much considering the point of the game. "

she exists as a soul,just like beatrice. my point was that she isnt an illusion like,say,young eva.

"Perhaps. Not confirming or denying, but back in the day I remember a lot of people speculating that Kumasawa was somehow the original Beatrice, disguised so Kinzo didn't recognize her, lol."

highly unlikely. a lover can pretty much sniff his loved one out of a 1000people. no way that kinzo would interact daily with his lover and not recognize her. simply impossible.

last bot not least...
"It was still shown to US, the Reader, and thus can still be a fantasy scene. We are also playing this game with Ryukishi."

sorry but i simply cant accept that reasoning. within the story it is impossible for this scene to be fake in anyway(unless my"uncomfortable theory"is correct). this is a game between battler and beato.as far as this game is concerned"we"dont exist. if this was a comedy or parody game i would accept 4th wall breaking and whatnot,but a game that requires you to milk your brain like this must have everything in it make sense by its own rules and story. this is the same reason i know bernkastel isnt talking to"me"in the tea parties. she could be talking to battler or to someone else(although the EP2 tea party part telling you to"go to her because she is waiting for you to get up" followed by battler appearing with her sure seems to suggest it is battler,but the two events could be coincidences). either way,she is talking to"somebody."I"dont exist in this game.

"As for the vase, well, look at it from a non-magical context. The vase was 'fine, but broken by a cat', because 'the fate that it broke couldn't be changed'.

...Isn't that just changing the process of why it was broken? Did they actually do that, or did they just say they did?"

why was the fate not changeable?because virgilia wasnt an endless witch yet. if she was then the fate would have been changeable. that was explicitly stated in the scene.

Last edited by FFTHEWINNER; 2016-07-28 at 14:05.
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Old 2016-07-28, 22:54   Link #19
Jaden
Witch of Betrayal
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Not sure what's the problem with that vase scene. I think your idea that young Beatrice was indoctrinated to interpret memories and events with magic is fine, at least it's more palpable than accepting the existence of witches and magic, right?

As for how she would have been indoctrinated, well, maybe she did it herself with a severe case of chuunibyou. Just like Maria, but instead of having just her mother around to deny magic, young Beatrice had adults around her like Virgilia and Kinzo who enabled her delusions.
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Old 2016-07-30, 13:31   Link #20
FFTHEWINNER
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Not sure what's the problem with that vase scene. I think your idea that young Beatrice was indoctrinated to interpret memories and events with magic is fine, at least it's more palpable than accepting the existence of witches and magic, right?

As for how she would have been indoctrinated, well, maybe she did it herself with a severe case of chuunibyou. Just like Maria, but instead of having just her mother around to deny magic, young Beatrice had adults around her like Virgilia and Kinzo who enabled her delusions.
it seems you misunderstood me. that indoctrination theory was an outlier theory,not a theory that i embrace. furthermore,even if it was correct,that still means virgilia is a witch in the meta-world.

i would love to know how"chunnibyou"means you can visit alternate timelines and freeze time. in the meta-world,witches and magic are undeniable. that theory was simply about the"game world",and like i said it opens a 1000 cans of worms,which is why it is just a"what if"scenario for me
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